Trial Discussion Thread #31

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.. you missed off the last line of that poem, "Sad for me that I did not know, it was illegal in SA*"


*or the UK, or the USA (all of which rhyme)

I've seen numbers of $5K and $10K US rumored on the Internet as having come from a police officer that saw the watch that went missing. But a SA police officer looking at a box of eight fashion watches in a celebrity's bedroom would IMO overestimate the value of the watches.
 
On Angular Momentum and Inertia in the matter of Blood Spatter here

One possible explanation for blood spatter after Reeva’s heart may have stopped is the following.

Oscar’s alleged 5 minutes of crying over Reeva is one of the most obvious bits of probable poppycock. JMO.

Oscar in picking up Reeva and carrying her could have quickly observed that when he turned while carrying her, blood flung away from Reeva. This is a matter of rotation and angular momentum with a quick stop or inertial brake just after the quick partial turn. The rapid turn could be only a small part of a circle. Oscar probably has done this a million times for stretch. And the blood flying off, need not come out of blood vessels. It could have come off her clothing. The distance blood could be flung needs experimentation. Which Oscar might have immediately done, and which SAPS probably did not.

Oscar could have accidentally observed this effect as he carried her out of the loo/bathroom. He then might have gotten off on fiddling with the crime scene this way. Recall Shane’s schadenfreude/sadism theory. If true, alas he was using Reeva’s own body and clothes to confuse and confound the coming investigation.

Now I am not saying this def. happened or even that it could have happened. While the physics theory is hopefully simple and sound, there are too many variables to know for sure that this did or could have happened. Experiments are needed to see if this effect from clothing or blood vessels is possible shortly after death or while she was dying.

But it might explain how the dead or dying Reeva’s blood was found in certain places. And how difficult it is to make heads or tails of much of the crime scene and where surprisingly blood was found. It also explains the possible resourcefulness and desire to alter the crime scene immediately after the shooting. © and JMO
 
Sorry to interrupt, but what does BIB stand for? I see it in these threads and can't work it out (blush).

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk
 
Carried over from the last thread:

If Reeva was shot shortly after 3:00am he left her bleeding out for nearly 20 minutes before requesting medical assistance! The blood spatter analysis and pathologists do not support this scenario and it conflicts with the testimony of the defendant himself. Reeva could not have shown any signs of life, much less have died downstairs, twenty minutes after sustaining her head injury.

If she was shot at 3:17 all 5 witnesses heard the 'bat strikes' and again - the State has alluded, intimated, and indeed flat out asked Vermeulen if the door may have been hit before the shots or kicked - specifically with the intent to instill fear - Vermeulen allowed for this possibility. This time also matches the blood spatter analysis, the pathologists and even allows the defendant's statement that Reeva died downstairs to possibly be true. (Though the State has testified she likely expired after 2-3 breaths, if my recall is correct. The defence pathologist disputed the State's gastic emptying testimony but corroborated the State's ballistics expert; allowed for Reeva to possibly scream between shots; and conceded the State's testimony her death would have been swift following her head wound.)

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cour...7#.U1W_DfldWMM
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/20...-shots-bashing

The bottom line is that we have two distinct groupings of witnessed sounds credited as gunshots. Not three or more, but two. We have from physical evidence both shots and strikes to the door that must be accounted for. We have testimony that at least one bat strike occurred post shooting, and the logical conclusion rightly drawn by the state witness from that is that all of them occurred post shooting, despite concessions about what is theoretically possible due to lack of evidence either way.

Battling pathologists happen in every trial. The evidence is by nature reconstructed and somewhat subjective and that is why both sides can virtually always find people to lend some support to their versions. If Reeva can't have been screaming after the first set of sounds as reason and the evidence suggests to some here then pathologist testimony is of interest but unlikely to be more definitive than that.
 
I look at it this way, two items were removed (taking OP's word for it that the watch was in fact removed) and we know that one of those items (the phone) was removed by someone working with/for OP. Then I have to make a logical guess that the watch that was also removed was removed by the same person/s that took the phone. After all, none of those people were searched before leaving or the phone would have been found.

MOO
 
Yes, and the way I've heard some speak about it, it's almost as if they are talking about the type of accident where someone's tripped over the cat and died as a result of a bump on the head.

RSBM

Just to jump off your post...I think some people start and stop at an intruder. Some appear to feel that if someone has broken into your home, you have the right to kill them as long as you're afraid. But this isn't the law in South Africa and we aren't debating castle doctrine or SYG laws. The latter of which are in no way relevant to SA laws on self-defence and in jurisdictions they do exist are still often confined to certain rules, like the duty to retreat, in some areas.

As a result of apartheid, I believe the laws of South Africa are much clearer, with less room for subjectivity or personal interpretation, than either the US or UK in terms of self-defence.

You cannot claim even putative self-defence if you kill an intruder while they are fleeing. How did OP know they weren't when the door was closed? Supposedly because he heard a sound, which brings us to this being the first trial in SA history (that we know of) in which a defendant is claiming putative self-defence having NO interaction with a perceived aggressor.

JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.
 
The line about the security guards coming into peoples homes and taking things, was something said by OP. And since the things that come out of his mouth are to make himself "look" better, I don't believe him.

MOO
 
You have missed the point that OP is the confessed killer, and as such it is the burden of the defense to prove that the killing was an exception to the South African murder laws.

Walking from one position to another to get a gun, then following a woman down two passages and firing four shots into the toilet door behind which she was standing is prima facie evidence of premeditated intent to kill.

The defense has the burden of proof to show why it was not intent to kill, and to explain the myriad of witnesses who heard a woman screaming before gunshots silenced her.

So far OP's explanations have been contradicted by every bit of evidence on the crime scene, e.g., the broken bedroom door, the fan blocking the door to the balcony, the jeans on the duvet, the blood on the duvet and the carpet, the clippers beside the bed, the blood on the watches, the internet access after he claimed they were both asleep, the undigested food in Reeva's stomach, the lack of pooled blood in the bathroom with arterial blood spatter between that bathroom and front door, etc.

Also, it's helpful to argue a position from a place of knowing the evidence and facts, not on guessing or projecting your own beliefs.

Thank you for your tireless effort . Some just don't want to believe OP the killer is anything but a victim of circumstance.

:gthanks:
 
Originally Posted by sicknote
OP said so himself. If Stander denies it, OP is still lying. Unless of course he can't remember why he was required to be at Oscars in the middle of the night.

Originally Posted by minor4th
I don't think Stander is going to be testifying since he's been sitting in court. Nel could have called him if he thought Stander would contradict OP

I thought it had been cleared up that Stander hasn't been in court?

How could Nel know at the time that Stander would contradict OP? OP contradicted himself in regards to the phone call?
 
What still strikes me as surreal about this disagreement is that an exsanguinated body is easily differentiated from one that contains its blood and anyone who has seen the body and is half-way competent therefore knows the answer. I cannot understand why this important fact has not been elicited in open court : where is Reeva's blood ?

Either answer would be bad for OP: if we have arterial spurting outside the W.C. OP's timeline is proved to be a total lie. If, on the other hand, we have instantaneous cessation of vital functions with the last shot, his story of her breathing and dying in his arms is proved to be a total lie. The only thing that serves OP's cause is leaving the issue up in the air.

re: where is reeva's blood. in addition to the floor of the bathroom and the toilet, there looks to be a whole lot of reeva's blood in the bowl of the toilet.
 
Thank you for your tireless effort . Some just don't want to believe OP the killer is anything but a victim of circumstance.

:gthanks:

Right and I have a hard time understanding how people cannot feel more sympathy for his girlfriend and will just ignore that she was executed by 4 gun shots. It must be because OP is somewhat of a celbrity and since people knew him from the Olympics as a feel good story and they did not know the girlfriend then its easy for people to only feel sympathy for OP.

When a court case begins I try to be objective and block out the fact that OP was well known. To me he is just another defendent as I begin to listen to testimony. And it was only after I began to hear testimony and evidence is when I determined that OP is lying and fake-crying and fake-puking to try to get people to feel sorry for him. It made me want to puke too.
 
The police were searched and the watch wasn't found...were the defense lawyers, friends and family of OP? No. Great set up for police tampering don't you think??? And remember the .38 ammo and phone already left the scene with the defense lawyers.

BIB. I'm not sure that the police Colonel conducting the search was ever searched himself. He was in fact the one that said that particular watch, out of the eight, was the most expensive "in his eyes." He obviously valued it and had the opportunity to steal it if he wanted to.
 
...who followed these four shots by making the exact sounds of a woman being attacked and shot.

But the witnesses missed hearing the actual shots and only heard the replicated sounds of a woman screaming and shots.

Oh, and the police moved the fans, duvet, and jeans in the exact position that would contradict his entire story... and he broke down the left side of the bedroom door with his shoulder in a brilliant moment of anticipation realizing he couldn't carry Reeva back down to the front door through the open right side of the door, even before picking her up in the bathroom.

and another possible lie exposed:
op said he went out onto the balcony to scream 'help, help, help'. but note here, what is reported by van R first on the scene...

"When Botha and Van Rensburg went upstairs, the door to the balcony was locked, but they found the key."

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/ex-cop-tells-of-oscar-crime-scene-1.1660847#.U1ZwpOZdW2U
 
OP has claimed that police moved things around in order to frame him or something to that affect. What I can't figure out is how did the police know what to move around? OP didn't give them a statement, he didn't tell them his version, so how were they able to move all of those things around that messes up OP's version?

The duvet, jeans, fans, cords, curtains, etc all show that OP is not telling the truth so he blames it on police contamination. So does the police have a mind reader working for them? Or does it make more sense that OP is once again lying not only about his version but also about the police moving things around before the first set of pictures were taken?
 
BIB actually all the physical evidence and witness testimony completely contradicts OP's story.



In fact, his own expert just testified that Reeva fell on the magazine rack, which OP insisted repeatedly did not happen.



OP believes that his own expert is wrong, and that the police carefully lifted up the magazine rack and placed it into the pool of blood beside the toilet.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear...I meant simply in terms of he's 'proven' putative self-defence or whether OP was afraid. We have only his testimony for it with no supporting evidence. And he lacks credibility to say the least, in my opinion.

His own pathologist contradicts his account as well. Reeva couldn't have been on the toilet floor for 8-20+ minutes and still die downstairs. I find it impossible to ignore both defence experts either agreeing with the State in key areas or contradicting the defendant.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.
 
a little here on the boat accident. doesn't sound like there will be anything regarding a 'bangs to the head defence'... well not due to this episode anyway.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

The doctors at the Millpark Hospital were busy mending a number of facial *fractures, especially around Pistorius's jaw and nose. According to Pistorius's *manager, Peet van Zyl, they were pleased with the results.

"The doctors are quite happy with how the operation went and they expect Oscar to make a full recovery," Van Zyl said tonight. "With all the damage to his face and swelling around his airways, the use of a ventilator was purely a safety measure. But still, it is a tremendous relief that he is conscious again now in ICU [the intensive care unit]."

The Millpark principal medical officer, Anchen Laubscher, said of Pistorius: "He is fine. Everything can be repaired *surgically. His brain is functioning normally. He will soon be discharged and taken home to make a full recovery."


interesting additional note from this artice in respect to the 'reasonable man' and 'physical disabilities':
>Pistorius is an immensely popular man who has never considered himself disabled, but rather "differently abled".<
 
RSBM

You cannot claim even putative self-defence if you kill an intruder while they are fleeing. How did OP know they weren't when the door was closed? Supposedly because he heard a sound, which brings us to this being the first trial in SA history (that we know of) in which a defendant is claiming putative self-defence having NO interaction with a perceived aggressor.
.

RS/BBM
OP claims he screamed to the intruder/s several times, "Get the *advertiser censored** out of my house, heard a noise from the WC indicating the fellow was complying with his demand, and immediately fired 4 black talons at him? Sounds like a deliberate execution.
 
I'd be interested in the thoughts of those who believe OP's 'version' as to what they make of the photo evidence of the bedroon on the morning of the shooting. Back when I was just reading here and the photo evidence was introduced someone made a very good photos timeline. They marked with an asterix those taken after police moving of items may have made the images unreliable. However, the bedroom photos were taken approx 30 minutes before that time so they were, presumably, reliable.

So, for the sake of debate, taking it that those first photos are an accurate representation of the bedroom that morning, how do you account for the positioning of the fan, duvet, blood splatter etc in terms of OP's story? To my eyes they prove that OP is lying about at least one major part of his testimony.
 
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