Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Emz73]

That's correct.

Look at us forming an agreement bond :fence:

 

[molly333]

Molly there was a whole discussion yesterday that said, there wasn't a lot of blood because she died instantly.
Why on earth would he pretend to kill her in the toilet if he killed her in a basement!
There is no secret pools of blood! This is so simple

He scares her by hitting the door with a bat
She screams blue murder
He shoots 4 times
He prises open the door through bullet hole d with bat and hands.


I said I wouldn't....

I don't know. I was just looking at a different picture of that toilet. There's very little blood in there, given her wounds and that she was supposedly in there for a period of time.

Maybe our docs could look at these pictures and comment.

It just seems strange.

 

[molly333]

Don't know where you live but if it's that land of the free where you can be shot with impunity simply for asking the way to a Halloween party, and that's when your not being massacred in a school, mall, or on a military base yet another nutter with freely available guns, or when you're not falling victim to some serial killer like Ted Bundy, or where your neighbour can shoot 2 trespassers running away in the back simultaneously informing the police on the phone of what they are going to do and then have a grand jury let you walk... sorry, but I think I may well chose SA!

yeah, but this is a big country land wise and you can stay away from the nutters.

Where I live, I don't have to lock my door.

 

[james83]

Molly there was a whole discussion yesterday that said, there wasn't a lot of blood because she died instantly.
Why on earth would he pretend to kill her in the toilet if he killed her in a basement!
There is no secret pools of blood! This is so simple

He scares her by hitting the door with a bat
She screams blue murder
He shoots 4 times
He prises open the door through bullet hole d with bat and hands.


I said I wouldn't....

yup, the only scenario that truly makes sense.

 

[Emz73]

I don't know. I was just looking at a different picture of that toilet. There's very little blood in there, given her wounds and that she was supposedly in there for a period of time.

Maybe our docs could look at these pictures and comment.

It just seems strange.

I actually took a deep breath then.

You know this was discussed yesterday between viper and Jake. It went on and on..no offence boys! Crasshoper and minor discussed it. She died instantly, it got technical. I'm sure we all agree she got shot at 3.17.

I'm pretty certain you are winding us up now.

 

[Really?]

BBM

Are you saying I said that the accused is a liar?

that did make me LOL.

 

[BritsKate]

Do you know about the Jeffery Macdonald case?

The crime was as disturbed as it could be, and McD's wallet was stolen (and proven to be so) by an ambulance driver.

Yet, the evidence was sufficient to convict McD.

Like the prosecutor in the case said in court, "the defendant is entitled to a fair trial, not a perfect trial".

Molly, do you know of any case where a mistrial has been declared because the police allegedly tampered with the crime scene?

I have read of many cases where the DT alleges police tampering, not I have not read of any mistrials for this reason.

Seems like you post a lot, and a lot of that is just words, without anything to back it up. IMO.

BBM
So true. Thanks for the reminder of that case.

To add to your post, Paysee, I think it keeps getting forgotten that this isn't an American case. As such laws, procedures and standards relevant to American cases are not necessarily the bar for the rest of the planet.

 

[james83]

(Between first and second set of sound's)

Dr Stipp, who lived in a house behind and across the road from Pistorius’ villa, also repeatedly used the word “intermingled” to describe the sounds of a man shouting and a woman screaming, saying he believed two people were yelling at the time.

Wow, Oscar was shouting like a man and screaming like a woman at the same time, impressive.

 

[aa9511]

This is a pretty obvious case to me, after Oscar's testimony. The bullet holes clearly show Oscar was aiming at someone in the toilet room. Oscar says, no, no, I wasn't aiming at anyone. Oscar says he wasn't even pointing the gun at a specific place. Oscar says he was just generally holding the gun in a forward position.

Gee, I don't think the Judge is supposed to read behind those lies and come up with some sort of police conspiracy.

JMO.

 

[bessie]

I don't know. I was just looking at a different picture of that toilet. There's very little blood in there, given her wounds and that she was supposedly in there for a period of time.

Maybe our docs could look at these pictures and comment.

It just seems strange.

Look at which pictures? It would be helpful to include the photo, itself, or at least a link.

Thanks.

 

[Viper]

yeah, but this is a big country land wise and you can stay away from the nutters.

Where I live, I don't have to lock my door.

BIB. Sounds like where OP lived.

 

[james83]

This is a pretty obvious case to me, after Oscar's testimony. The bullet holes clearly show Oscar was aiming at someone in the toilet room. Oscar says, no, no, I wasn't aiming at anyone. Oscar says he wasn't even pointing the gun at a specific place. Oscar says he was just generally holding the gun in a forward position.

Gee, I don't think the Judge is supposed to read behind those lies and come up with some sort of police conspiracy.

JMO.

Yep, and if anyone would like conformation of this go here

http://news.sky.com/story/1242575/oscar-pistorius-tears-genuine-or-contrived

scroll down to the video section on right hand side and click on the video entitled legal experts view and see what a ballistics expert think's.

 

[nastasya]

Ya, the complex had 5 crimes(?) 4 by OP hence his charges.....and the whiny complaint of the theft of a cheap watch....by OP

Wow... that is very telling, isn't it?

He puts a bullet through his girlfriend's head and then he files a police report that one of his watches is missing from the crime scene.

WTF?

What kind of *advertiser censored***h*** does this?

 

[BritsKate]

I actually took a deep breath then.

You know this was discussed yesterday between viper and Jake. It went on and on..no offence boys! Crasshoper and minor discussed it. She died instantly, it got technical. I'm sure we all agree she got shot at 3.17.

I'm pretty certain you are winding us up now.

If I understood all 3 correctly they concluded the gunshots that killed Reeva could not have occurred shortly after 3am. I think. I was trying to follow along but I did so not miss my calling by not entering the medical profession.

Hopefully, they'll correct us if we're wrong because it did indeed get technical and I don't want to misinterpret another poster.

 

[shane13]

Unread messages are kept for 30 days also I read this...

Experts said that there is a general perception that Whatsapp and Blackberry Messenger services are more secure than SMS and were thus used for communicating for spot fixing. The services are more difficult to track but the authorities have access to these services. The messages sent on these services are encrypted and exists outside mobile service provider.

Thank you.

 

[Viper]

My thinking about the issues of the duvet, the fan etc. is that they are not that critical to the truth. They are little things in a relative sense. It's possible to step/run over a blanket. It's possible to shuffle a pair of jeans over unwittingly on your way by. It's possible to step or dart around a fan. It's possible and maybe even probable that the items were disturbed by Oscar or by the police, perhaps more than once. If Oscar's account is true I don't trust that he is really in the position to recall with certainty the position and trajectory of every thing in that room. The problem then becomes with how adamant he was on the stand with Gerrie Nel and how he was drawn into being very specific. And that may simply be a function of Oscar's personality, his frustration and fear level by that time, and of the general vulnerability of a first time defendant against a skilled prosecutor building an arbitrary narrative. It hurt Oscar's credibility more than it hurt his story, if that make sense.

BIB1. The truth is OP is a desperate liar. A really really really desperate liar.

BIB2. You may have missed that part of OPs testimony, but OP said that the police closed the patio door, opened to curtains too far, put the large fan in front of the door - blocking OPs ability to run out on to the patio, turned on both his lamp and patio lights, and they put the duvet where he says the large fan was supposed to be.

Whew, I'm tired! So much tampering with evidence by the police here!

 

[Mango33]

Keep in mind that WhatsApp only stores 7 days worth of messages locally on the phone.

Do we even know if it was the same phone?

The real insight here is they gave the phone back. The only reason to give the phone back was in the hope that the lack of evidence on the phone would somehow exonerate OP.

Yes, the 5th phone is a smoking gun. Nobody wants to talk about the 5th phone.

The missing phone mystery is something very odd and intriguing.

However, for the sake of the integrity of this trial, I think it is important to note that none of the data submitted as evidence, is data that could have been tampered with. What was submitted related to the 5th phone?

Phone call records: These are not in the phone. They are provided by the telephone company.

I read a suggestion that Team OP may have wanted to delete a suspicious call OP may have made. This is not possible. The phone company still has the full call log.

What's App messages: As much a three months worth of OP-RS messages were put into evidence. These are not native to the iPhone. The thread of messages could have come from Reeva's What's App account, from OP's account...either. They exist on both.

In short, neither of these types of 5th phone data evidence require the physical iphone handset, nor could they be deleted.

In fact, even if the phone was never found, they would have been able to submit this evidence. They knew the phone number from Reeva's phone contacts

What could have been deleted from the returned phone? Photos, an incoming voice message (though company phone logs would still show the incoming call), records of internet searches on the iphone, text messages using the iphone text function.

Among those, something incriminating certainly could have been theoretically lost. However, I expect the Apple geniuses visited in CA would have been able to recover some of it anyway. In addition, with these smartphones, so little of the data is uniquely located on the physical phone. It is often synced to other devices, backed up in iCloud etc

So, while I think the 5th phone disappearance is worth investigating, I am not yet convinced that it is the smoking gun.

But I still want to know who took it and why.

 

[lithgow1]

My thinking about the issues of the duvet, the fan etc. is that they are not that critical to the truth. They are little things in a relative sense. It's possible to step/run over a blanket. It's possible to shuffle a pair of jeans over unwittingly on your way by. It's possible to step or dart around a fan. It's possible and maybe even probable that the items were disturbed by Oscar or by the police, perhaps more than once. If Oscar's account is true I don't trust that he is really in the position to recall with certainty the position and trajectory of every thing in that room. The problem then becomes with how adamant he was on the stand with Gerrie Nel and how he was drawn into being very specific. And that may simply be a function of Oscar's personality, his frustration and fear level by that time, and of the general vulnerability of a first time defendant against a skilled prosecutor building an arbitrary narrative. It hurt Oscar's credibility more than it hurt his story, if that make sense.

Thanks again but you are just comparing things you say OP could have done with what he actually said he did. Had the fan been in the way, he would have mentioned moving it as he would have needed to to get to the balcony. But the fan isn't moved. Ignore these things all you want but they cannot be wished out of existence - as I said before, his emotional response to questions you don't think matter shows how much they actually do.

 

[james83]

BIB1. The truth is OP is a desperate liar. A really really really desperate liar.

BIB2. You may have missed that part of OPs testimony, but OP said that the police closed the patio door, opened to curtains too far, put the large fan in front of the door - blocking OPs ability to run out on to the patio, turned on both his lamp and patio lights, and they put the duvet where he says the large fan was supposed to be.

Whew, I'm tired! So much tampering with evidence by the police here!

Next he'll be claiming that the incident didn't happen on the 14th, it was the police who moved it to valentine's day to make him look worse.

 

[Fuskier]

I posted this a few days ago.
But maybe some now did not see it?

Gunshot 1000 times louder than bat strike, says forensics consultant
Something I've said here for a long time in different terms (such as gunshot incorporating sonic booms, etc}

He says "sound made by pistol shot is effectively 1000 times louder than a bat on door."At circa 2:00 minute mark, but entire interview is revealing.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: eNCA interviews David Klatzow on Oscar trial proceedings - YouTube

Thank you for re-posting as I had missed it. Referring to 'sound' generated by cricket bat striking a wooden door or gun shots, David Klatzow states that 'sound is attenuated by distance'. In brief, those closest to the sounds may be less likely to distinguish them clearly, but those further away would be more likely to distinguish them as a gun shot is 1000 times louder that a cricket bat striking wood. It is implied that the louder sound waves (i.e. gun shots) would travel further over distance than the softer sound waves (cricket bat striking wood) would most likely drop off earlier over distance. He recommends an acoustic expert for commentary. Makes sense to me.