Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[K.T]

Thanks for posting this link:

Most interesting moment, for myself, the legal experts suggesting that Dr and Mrs Stipp's testimony has more relevance than the Stander's as witnesses.

oscar trial legal panel 13 - YouTube

Oscar Channel discussion with legal experts Professor Grant, Attorney Clifford Alexander and Judge Greenland:

Panelist Judge Greenland suggests that the Stander’s (Johan Stander and his recently married daughter Carice Viljeon né Stander) could be seen as good witnesses for the defense argument, if only for the lay-public. Judge Greenland thinks their testimony might show Pistorius as seemingly remorseful and distraught in his post-shooting state, suggesting an accidental killing.

However other panelists suggest that Pistorius' attitde may still show intentional murder and panel discuss how Stander's statements may be actually irrelevant to the court as ‘inadmissible evidence’ or ‘subconscious bias'*.

3.49 min:

Professor Grant and Attorney Alexander suggest that the Stander’s recounting of Pistorius’ statements and manner does not necessarily help legal defense.

Oscar Trial99 Channel Journalist: …previously ‘inconsistent statements’ that should not be allowed, but he used the words: “I made a mistake.” Now, he [Johan Stander] was carefully grilled on that one, why was that significant for Gerrie Nel, to pick up on that point?

Professor Grant: I think, what he was drawing attention to being referred to, is that the witness is drawing an inference. That’s one possible interpretation and that’s my interpretation. And, it’s not allowed. Witnesses are there, ordinarily lay-witnesses, and are there to testify about the raw data, the information, not to be drawing inferences - that’s the court’s jurisdiction. Alternatively, when you have experts, experts are allowed to venture into that domain. So, it was really picking him up on the fact that he was showing and Nel was showing, that this witness is actually not giving you the raw information [to the] Judge and the assessors. This witness is actually manipulating, even at a subconscious level, it might have been an entirely honest mistake. But this witness is manipulating the raw data as he’s presenting it to you. Um, I think that’s the best interpretation on that basis.

Judge Christopher Greenland: I think in simple terms, it’s the Stander’s versus the Stipp's [confirmation from the panelist’s now about right name] on the events immediately after the shooting and the issue that then arises is: who of these two sets of witnesses are more reliable? And, obviously witnesses who can be described and can be categorized as independent, are more reliable. And, what Gerrie Nel did at a stroke, and I think masterfully, was show that, that witness [Stander] is/was suffering from, at least, ‘subconscious bias’. Because of the way, she than changed her evidence, included –

Interjection by Oscar Trial journalist: - it was he, it was the father -

Judge Greenland: - he included, this, extra bit, in order to favor Oscar. People do that when they are being honest but they are not independent. They suffer from what’s called ‘subconscious bias’* and therefore they are less reliable. So, I think Gerrie will be able to argue that they are not as independent as the competing witness.

Journalist: So it was a critical mistake there. I am sure for the defense they would have been a little disheartened by that particular moment.

Judge Greenland: Gerrie scored a good point there.

 

[Cymbaline]

Frankly, its time for everyone to give up on the hopeless and heartbreaking theory of Oscar being able to scream exactly like the woman the witnesses heard.. I mean.. even Roux is only half hearted about it now. .. he knows which way the wind is blowing and he cant keep up the fantasy.. its way past time for everyone else to let it die a natural death, as all idiot fantasies should do. .. its the quintessential flogging of the dead horse and it just cannot sustain any momentum at all.

He screams like a girl but only when he's murdering a girl who isn't screaming.


JMO

 

[gajonka]

BBM

oh really.. that is a step too far.. both women sounded like ewes calling for a lamb.. surely, even in Texas , blood curdling doesn't sound like a sheep ... I know things are different there, but that's a bit too much..

Ahhh, Back in Action!

Good morning!

And so it continues...

 

[Nausicaa]

Barry Bateman's tweet today. Clarifying cricket bat sounds and gun shots as definitive.


"@....... the forensics don’t support that timeline. It’s undisputed that the bullets hit the door first, then bat."

No it ain't. I've just disputed it.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Can somebody point me to a photo of the damaged bath panel please.

TIA

 

[Fuskier]

Thanks for posting this link:

Most interesting moment, for myself, the legal experts suggesting that Dr and Mrs Stipps have more relevance than the Standers as witnesses.

oscar trial legal panel 13 - YouTube

Oscar Channel discussion with legal experts Professor Grant, Attorney Clifford Alexander and Judge Greenland:

Panelist Judge Greenland suggests that the Stander’s (Johan Stander and his recently married daughter Carice Viljeon né Stander) could be seen as good witnesses for the defense argument, if only for the lay-public. Judge Greenland thinks their testimony might show Pistorius as seemingly remorseful and distraught in his post-shooting state, suggesting an accidental killing.

However other panelists suggest that Pistorius' attitde may still show intentional murder and panel discusses how Standers’ statements may be actually irrelevant to the court as ‘inadmissible evidence’ or ‘subconscious bias'.

3.49 min:

This post is much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Either that, or they heard Reeva screaming?

I think Reeva was screaming way before the gunshots. Whatever the altercation it caused enough fear for her to take refuge in the toilet cubicle. The argument (that Van Der Merwe heard) took place elsewhere, ie in the bedroom. My feeling is she was threatened and chased into the toilet cubicle, possibly screaming whilst running into the bathroom. Oscar had his bat in hand when chasing her and struck the cubicle door several times, causing her to scream further. By this time he was well into one of his well known uncontrolled rages, collected his gun and shot through the door several times causing her last screams and demise. MOO

 

[Cymbaline]

Can somebody point me to a photo of the damaged bath panel please.

TIA

http://ewn.co.za/-/media/Images/2014/03/12/10/33/140312Steel-Plate-jpg.ashx

 

[Mr Fossil]

No it ain't. I've just disputed it.

As far as I can tell, the only reason the bullets are said to come before the bat hits is because of the crack that deviates through one of the bullet holes. For me, the other possibility is that the crack was caused when the panel was prised out making it possible that the bat hits may have been before the bullets. I have difficulty believing Reeva could have lived as long as she must have, if the bullets were at around 3am.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Barry Bateman's tweet today. Clarifying cricket bat sounds and gun shots as definitive.


"@....... the forensics don’t support that timeline. It’s undisputed that the bullets hit the door first, then bat."[/QUOTE]

BIB
Not so. It is the state's case that the bat hits were first and the gun shots were last. Nel clearly stated this when Roux was attempting to create his version of the timeline. This has been discussed many times here and the relevant video linked. With due diligence you will be able to find it. If you follow the state's case you will understand why the last two witnesses did not hear any gunshots (save one) or screaming. They slept through it all and awoke to hear Oscar crying out helpx3.

 

[emirates1957]

On that note, what are the prisons like in SA ? Unfortunately I do not have a legal brain in my body.…..35 years of aviation consequently anything I would have to add would be pure dribble.

I am in awe of the websleuthers knowledge and contributions.

 

[crasshopper]

http://ewn.co.za/-/media/Images/2014/03/12/10/33/140312Steel-Plate-jpg.ashx

Had yet to see that photo, wow! No wonder everyone keeps referring to it. I thought it was a 'plate' the size of a light switch plate.

NOT good ...

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I just downgraded common sense, so I don't understand why you ask me this question.

BTW, why did Merwe hear loud arguing noises, with all sorts of obstacles in the way, while the Stipps, closer than Merwe and with a direct line, did not?

They could have been arguing in a different part of the house which may have been more in line with the Merwe.
Maybe Mrs Stipp's was still asleep at this point .

 

[james83]

They weren't as loud?

The defence can't have it both way's, they can't claim a bat hitting a door was heard 180 meters away, but wasn't heard by the next door neighbour because they didn't have any window's open, we all know that makes no sense.

 

[crasshopper]

in more simplistic words. there is no 'proof' that these ear witnesses made a mistake..

none

zip

zero

nada

I 'gotta' go with this one

 

[wb180]

The defence can't have it both way's, they can't claim a bat hitting a door was heard 180 meters away, but wasn't heard by the next door neighbour because they didn't have any window's open, we all know that makes no sense.

The defence seems to want it both ways. Sorta like OP's defence...

 

[crasshopper]

They could have been arguing in a different part of the house which may have been more in line with the Merwe.
Maybe Mrs Stipp's was still asleep at this point .

I think Mrs. Stipp was awake because she wasn't feeling well. Otherwise I agree!

 

[james83]

I just downgraded common sense, so I don't understand why you ask me this question.

BTW, why did Merwe hear loud arguing noises, with all sorts of obstacles in the way, while the Stipps, closer than Merwe and with a direct line, did not?

Allegedly that argument was in the bedroom.

 

[Interested Bystander]

On that note, what are the prisons like in SA ? Unfortunately I do not have a legal brain in my body.…..35 years of aviation consequently anything I would have to add would be pure dribble.

I am in awe of the websleuthers knowledge and contributions.

Very poor generally (though there are new ones being built) due to the overcrowding and age of the building. Having read this up during the last few days it seems the overcrowding is dire and many prisons hold twice the intended capacity. Depending where they are and their age, they are dirty, filled with murderers and addicts and are very dangerous places. If OP is found guilty, he will almost certainly appeal and be allowed bail during this process. However, if his appeal fails IMO a newish prison with better facilities will be found for him, unlike some other poor Jo who gets dumped in a dive.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Come on. Everyone looks creepy a few times a day, but not everyone has the MSM picking out the worst possible of hundreds of photos to send all around the world with a mouse-click.

I look weird - a lot - every day but not creepy. Creepy is in it's own special category. I think the term creepy was used in contrast to how he has looked most other times in the trial, which IMHO run the gamut.