Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[ColonelMustard]

Unless, of course, he had his legs on.

Your description of his waddling is exactly why I don't believe his story, that he ran down that long dark hall towards danger, while on his stumps.

Side note: I recal OP saying somewhere in his cross as Nel was making repeat things over and over again that after firing the shots he "walked" back into the bedroom ( to see if Reeva was ok). At the time, I wasn't thinking about "on his legs vs stumps" rather, who would "walk" back anywhere after something like that - especially to see whether someone was alright.

Frankly, I think it was another Freudian slip.

I do think he walked back in there and that Stipp saw him walk past that window. He was never in a rush, maybe not even when he cornered her.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Osteoporosis.

:floorlaugh:

 

[liesbeth]

Right. I was talking about the scream/wailing demonstrations by the women. They all knew it was a man's voice and did not mistake it for a woman. But the way they did the demonstration was informative IMO

It was indeed. It proves that, to these neighbors, Oscar does not cry like a woman. Not one of them thought they heard a female crying.

 

[minor4th]

Yes. But it was not made available to the public. It's the same as Saayman's evidence? So we, the public, can only go on what was said in court.

I am not quite following you. They discussed it in public - they referenced the last numbers of the callers' phone numbers rather than reading out the whole phone number, if that's what you mean.

Yes, we are going by the testimony we heard in court about the times of the calls. But there was no disagreement about what the records showed.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Oh and another one - a few hours ago Robyn Curnow was asked about this Kim Myers issue and she said that there had been no response whatsoever from the Pistorius camp about it. If that was live, and it looked it was, she was either very uninformed for someone there or 'avoiding the truth' shall we say. Both Pistorius' lawyer and OP himself had statements out for a couple of hours at least, including Pistorius' endearing 'I hold the door open but they won't look me in the eye' or whatever exact weasely words it was he said.

Does this woman work for Fox News? I'm being serious.

 

[minor4th]

It was indeed. It proves that, to these neighbors, Oscar does not cry like a woman. Not one of them thought they heard a female crying.

I think it proves that the witnesses who thought they heard a woman screaming - actually heard Oscar wailing, loud crying, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Nausicaa]

That's what the evidence is. I guess you could call it simplistic since I'm not adding in additional speculation or coming up with hypothetical fact situations (unsupported by evidence) just to make it fit a preferred outcome.

Know what I mean?

No I don't know what you mean. I find your remarks deeply mysterious. In this post you explicitly rejected the possibility of two sets of calls of "Help!", one before and one after the second set of bangs. You allege that Nel undermines his own witnesses by placing calls for "Help!" after the final bangs.
You now claim that your bizarre interpretation of the events is not an interpretation at all but simply "the evidence". It is no such thing. If by "the evidence" you mean witness testimony, it is plain that the bulk of this testimony can be retained and reconciled if there were two sets of shots and two sets of cries for "Help!", in addition to blood-curdling screaming between the two sets of shots and an argument between a man and a woman before the first set.

That is the evidence. But you have invented an imaginary contradiction which requires you to correct and adjust the evidence of some witnesses, including the highly credible and calm Dr Stipp. You are excluding a priori and without any proof the scenario that is compatible with practically every detail of testimony provided.

In other words you bend the facts to fit a hypothesis and then you accuse those who have proposed a hypothesis to fit the facts of doing what you yourself are guilty of.

 

[ColonelMustard]

So, given that he was so unstable and vulnerable, while on his stumps, why would he run down that dark hallway on them, towards unknown intruders?

That seems very unlikely. It only took a minute or 2 to pull his legs on. Why wouldn't he do that if he planned to confront armed invaders?

More like 2 seconds. Go back and find the link I posted that shows him putting on a leg.

 

[katydid23]

Random side comment... I don't really think that OP asked RS to come over and watch his dogs. My guess is that she volunteered.

IIRC, this is how Mr. Stander testified to that subject. He said that when OP brought RS over to the Standers to introduce her, and for a coffee, OP asked Stander if he wouldn't mind watching his dogs for a week in December. Stander agreed to do so, BUT REEVA SAID " I will gladly do that, Oscar..no problem.'

So you are correct, Reeva volunteered.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I'd definitely put on legs to confront intruders with arms.

Sorry, I know it's no joking matter but it's been a long day. .)

How would he know the intruder(s) had arms? (Just asking)

 

[Trooper]

I think it proves that the witnesses who though they heard a woman screaming - actually heard Oscar wailing, loud crying, or whatever you want to call it.

Originally Posted by minor4th View Post
That's what the evidence is. I guess you could call it simplistic since I'm not adding in additional speculation or coming up with hypothetical fact situations (unsupported by evidence) just to make it fit a preferred outcome.


calling this 'proof' .. that 5 people made a mistake in the gender of the voice they heard is really the ultimate additional speculation and hypothetical, unsupported by evidence just to make it fit a preferred outcome,... don't you think??

 

[Trooper]

in more simplistic words. there is no 'proof' that these ear witnesses made a mistake..

none

zip

zero

nada

 

[minor4th]

No I don't know what you mean. I find your remarks deeply mysterious. In this post you explicitly rejected the possibility of two sets of calls of "Help!", one before and one after the second set of bangs. You allege that Nel undermines his own witnesses by placing calls for "Help!" after the final bangs.
You now claim that your bizarre interpretation of the events is not an interpretation at all but simply "the evidence". It is no such thing. If by "the evidence" you mean witness testimony, it is plain that the bulk of this testimony can be retained and reconciled if there were two sets of shots and two sets of cries for "Help!", in addition to blood-curdling screaming between the two sets of shots and an argument between a man and a woman before the first set.

That is the evidence. But you have invented an imaginary contradiction which requires you to correct and adjust the evidence of some witnesses, including the highly credible and calm Dr Stipp. You are excluding a priori and without any proof the scenario that is compatible with practically every detail of testimony provided.

In other words you bend the facts to fit a hypothesis and then you accuse those who have proposed a hypothesis to fit the facts of doing what you yourself are guilty of.

I've invented nothing, and I'm not the one bending anything to fit a hypothesis. There is no reason to get angry because I'm not willing to consider speculation that has not even been alleged by the State, is not supported by any evidence, and is not the state's case.

Not one witness testified that they heard two separate cries for help from Oscar. So, yes, I do reject that Oscar yelled "help, help, help" before 3:17 and again after 3:17. That's why I say my opinion is based on the evidence we have actually heard and seen - and not some alternative theory that I have made up to fit a preconceived notion. Again, that's the evidence, and that is what I'm basing my opinion and discussion on.

We have five witnesses who heard Oscar yelling "help, help, help" before the final bangs at 3:17 - Burger, Johnson, Mrs Stipp, Carice Stander, and Mrs N. Dr Stipp is the only one who said the "help, help, help" was after the last sounds at 3:17 - he did not say he heard those yells both before and after the 3:17 bangs. To me this indicates that Dr Stipp was simply mistaken about the timing of those yells since it is contrary to what 5 other witnesses heard.

If Nel is now going to argue that the "help, help, help" was after the 3:17 bangs, then it goes against 3 of his own witnesses who heard it before 3:17.

 

[Trooper]

Frankly, its time for everyone to give up on the hopeless and heartbreaking theory of Oscar being able to scream exactly like the woman the witnesses heard.. I mean.. even Roux is only half hearted about it now. .. he knows which way the wind is blowing and he cant keep up the fantasy.. its way past time for everyone else to let it die a natural death, as all idiot fantasies should do. .. its the quintessential flogging of the dead horse and it just cannot sustain any momentum at all.

 

[ColonelMustard]

RSBM

Steve, please forgive the snip, but it reminded me of a delicious moment during Nel's cross of OP. Nel accused OP of padding the list of things he supposedly did during the time Reeva had to have slipped away to the bathroom. Immediately, OP spoke up, reminding Nel in a "gotcha" tone that Samantha Taylor testified that it took 4 min. for him to put on his legs but actually he could do it in 30 sec., which, he volunteered, he'd just demonstrated to m'lady during the break. hahahaha

WTF? If he really did his little demonstration he should have taken 10 minutes!!

 

[ColonelMustard]

Thank you for sharing!

He made lots of great points. Many similar to some we've made here.
Oscar's version just doesn't make sense, his decisions that morning bely 'reason' or plausibility.

Could not help but chuckle at times, especially after this line

'Oh, I almost forgot – throughout all of this he is screaming like a woman, except when he goes onto the balcony to shout for help in a man’s voice'

Good point and/but he would say that, by then, he was no longer terrified for his life.

 

[Trooper]

Good point and/but he would say that, by then, he was no longer terrified for his life.

The oddest part of the whole shindig of Oscar being the womans voice, is that at one stage , Dr Stipp heard, and testified to hearing a man AND a womans voice intermingled screaming..

just don't know how Oscar expects to pull that one off.

 

[minor4th]

Oh dang, we don't have trial today :facepalm: I stayed up late to catch the trial and just now realized it's a holiday and they're adjourned until Thursday.

So .. on that note, goodnight fftobed:

 

[ColonelMustard]

He's probably not confused.

Dixon didn't get confused when he hired a tiny man to pose as OP in the bathroom photos. That was deliberate. Just like the woman being asked to scream in court today. It comes from desperation, IMO.

True that.

I figure he simply told OP and his family there really was no case. He knows Nel. He knows his style and strategies. He knew he'd likely eviscerate the DWs. He'd agree to do the best that he could - for top dollar - but with no guarantees.

I mean, what were they gonna do? The guy is supposedly "the best" DA in SA. If he's telling you that, no one else is likely to tell you anything different unless they're scamming you. I figure the family simply thought it was their only chance, even if a very poor one, and they had the money to - dare I say - give it a shot.

The family (and Roux?) bet the farm on Oscar ace-ing his testimony. When he failed miserably, all bets were off. Before that Roux had next to nothing. After that he had nothing. That's why his defense is laughable. They have nothing' and nobody was going to risk they're reputations after OP had already sunk the case.

During his cross OP said something like, "THAT was the moment everything changed." Well, in his trial, the first time he opened his mouth, "THAT was the moment everything changed." IMHO, it was o.v.e.r.

 

[katydid23]

Originally Posted by katydid23
Any idea why they didn't hear the cricket batshots?

They weren't as loud?

==============================================

Some of the other neighbors heard the bat shots. Weren't they even further away?