Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[JudgeJudi]

Whoa people, be careful with the Mirror. Mrs Stipp did NOT say she was "woken by the sound of gunshots". She was already awake, suffering from a cough; she didn't claim to have been woken by any noise.

My sincere apologies for that. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[steveml]

^^^^This. I think expert witnesses are trying to distance themselves from this circus. I know it was reported that the forensic pathologist (Perumal, I think) will not be testifying. Of course, the DT put their own spin on this, and said it was a scheduling conflict. Hmmm.

I'm not sure there's any need for further forensic pathology testimony. The autopsy isn't in dispute and the digestion times are open to interpretation as they always are. No other suspicious circumstances have been determined as far as I'm aware.

The bullet wounds could be something requiring a further look I suppose, however the order of the shots is probably of more importance regarding the determination of the crime.

The state have also indicated that they are not contesting anything that happened after OP brought Reeva down the stairs, so further forensic pathology testimony isn't required for the subsequent events after the shooting.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Well, as several have posted earlier, why would OP think it was safe enoughfor his girlfriend to stay in his house, alone, a weekhere or there to watch his dogs.

Why not have Stander or another resident,aware of the 'incidents' in their gated community, do it?

Did he provide Reeva with a gun for protection or train her in commando mode?

I am not being facetious.

Random side comment... I don't really think that OP asked RS to come over and watch his dogs. My guess is that she volunteered.

 

[steveml]

Surely, there must be something they can garner from this chap Frank. What did he see when he woke? What did he do? (get dressed? grab his cellphone?open his door?) Which way did he go to get out to the street where Carice saw him? (through the kitchen, past the stairs out the front door?) Why was he out on the street? If he didn't hear anything at the time of killing, what or who woke him? What did he think had happened? Where were Oscar's dog(s)? Did he speak to Oscar at any point before he went outside? What did he say to security who were also on the street with him? Did he make any calls? Was he photographed as well? Did he have any blood on him or his clothing?

He's the only other person in the house, there must be something he can provide. Something is not right with this not calling him to give his testimony for either side.

I really wouldn't worry about it. If there was any suspicious circumstance, or the slightest thing that benefited either side, they'd be using it to their advantage without a doubt.

He probably wasn't in the house that evening. He could well have been getting merrily sloshed or stoned somewhere, and came back to the house that morning. He may have gone away for the evening to give Reeva and OP more privacy. We're unlikely to hear anything from the court in any case.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Well, as several have posted earlier, why would OP think it was safe enoughfor his girlfriend to stay in his house, alone, a weekhere or there to watch his dogs.

Why not have Stander or another resident,aware of the 'incidents' in their gated community, do it?

Did he provide Reeva with a gun for protection or train her in commando mode?

I am not being facetious.

Random side comment... I don't really think that OP asked RS to come over and watch his dogs. My guess is that she volunteered. Does that matter? No, except as it might shed light on the possible nature of their relationship, which I think she was driving forward fueled in large part by hope, idealism, fantasy, romance, and Love (capital "L") - her word - and after only three months.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I would like to know why free-range Clarice was permitted to wander into the spare room (whose location and contents are part of the crime scene Exhibit TT from Album 9) unescorted -- that's right all alone, while Amy was picking dress attire under watchful police eyes.

... free-range Clarice. Priceless!!!!! (minor correction: her name is Carice)

 

[steveml]

I'll tell you another thing. Whether I read it here, read it somewhere else, heard it myself in his testimony, or had a dream about it, I THINK OP said at one point that he "kneeled down." It was hard for me to follow all of his goings this way and that along the passage, along the wall, along wherever. But I picture it in my mind that he was close the edge of where one wall is opening into another space. He kneeled and paused before making his next move.

For me, that raised the question of his legs. Can he kneel from his stumps? Can he kneel from his legs? Why would he leave his legs on RS side of the bed unless he wanted to make an excuse for why he didn't slip them on right away - IF indeed he wasn't wearing them. If not, why say "kneel" unless it's just a figure of speech like a blind person saying, "I saw that."

That's an interesting point regarding kneeling. It rings a bell with me that it was mentioned during testimony.

 

[Suthrnqt]

New witness stuff for this week should be up by end of Wednesday. I was not able to watch last night but catching up now and wow, another crazy, and short, day!

It sounds like these two new ear witnesses heard very limited pieces of the incident and never went out on their balconies nor had open windows like the other witnesses (if I read correctly, need to watch). That makes a big difference!

And WTH, reading that OP muttered to Kim Myers in court today. So stupid & arrogant, if true!

Sounds like Wolmarans ran for the hills with Perumal.

Still can't get over Reeva's bag being taken from the scene... And the introduction of Frank.

J Stander was asked very directly who was at the scene a few times and he totally left out Baba, Frank and Ngelengthwa!!

I absolutely fail to understand how this obscenity of a defense case can be for real???? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.[B/]

BBM

Honey, I pitched a tent in the Twilight Zone several weeks ago. Lol

 

[liesbeth]

Apologies if I'm repeating old news. I'm reading as fast as I can to catch up.

During Mrs Nhlengethwa's testimony Nel put it to her that, based on Dr Stipp's evidence, she heard the last set of sounds. And then the help, help, help.

Roux objects and says they have the 03:16 call.

Nel says that the call is arguable. Arguable? But...but... And then I realized that we don't have the cellphone records. So where did we get the times of Stipp's call?:

YT 10 March Session 1: Roux cross of Baba:
13:00 Roux tells Baba that according to Dr Stipp he couldn't get through at first and only got through later and then Roux says that Stipp must have gotten through on the 03:15:51 (16 sec call).​

Oh, and the reason we don't have the record is found here:

10 March Session 1, Roux cross of Baba:
25:30 Cellphone records not available to public. (Q (landline security), R (cellphone security) and S (state's timeline of calls.)​

 

[Bazinga]

I wonder if he ever introduced ST or the previous gf's that way...

I'm not sure if this has been discussed - sorry if so.
Stander said oscar called him Oom, as in "please, please, please come, Oom! "
Oom indicates to me a closeness that Mr Stander then seemed to downplay. To call him Oom and to phone him in the panic after shooting Reeva says to me they are very close.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Yes, I wrote that here a week or two ago that since that was not his father's ammo, it likely went with a gun that maybe OP was going to be approved for soon.

But he couldn't wait.

I also wrote then that someone who wants to make sure he would survive would never have just one gun--they do jam.

So yes I am on record believeing he had a 2nd gun there (if not more.)

How big was Reeva's bag?

My guess on the purse (not overnight bag in the pics): sizeable. She was fashion-conscious. Large is in.

White on white party

Sports Awards

Casual

 

[liesbeth]

re: Mr N... i believe his wife heard one 'bang', was he not reporting this.

That's what I thought. But during his testimony he stated that he made the call based on the crying he heard.

Notes: From 06 May cross of Mr Nhlengethwa by Nel.

Nel: Your wife never heard anything before she heard a bang and other sounds or noises. Paraphrasing: Mr N says not as far as he knows.

You know, from following the case, that the Stipps gave evidence that they heard a woman screaming. You never heard a woman scream? Mr N he knows what the Stipps said, but he didn't hear a woman scream.

You also know, from following the case, that Michelle Burger says she heard blood curdling screams. Mr N says he heard her testimony (54:12) but he never heard the screams.

And you also heard that they gave evidence of four gun shots at 03:17. But you say you never heard that.

M'lady as I said earlier, it was just quite interesting to hear what others have said. I said I wouldn't come here and say I didn't follow the case. But at the time when I made the call I did not hear anything in terms of the gunshots or anything. I didn't hear that. So at the time I was making the call, I was making the call based on the crying that I was hearing. To inform the security that they must quickly come up. So in terms of the other things that obviously as Mr Nel is saying that for me th......yeah

 

[minor4th]

I had a feeling that it was reported somewhere That Mr. Nhlengethwa called ecrity and reported gunshots. I didn't know who he was at the time. As Nel didn't press him on the matter, perhaps it's untrue. I pulled this from Juror13 blog jut before the two week break.

Phone records - Calls to security on 14th Feb

Silverwood Security land line:

3:15:51am - Dr. Stipp (army training - assult rifle & pistol). Reported gunshots.
3:16:16am - Mr Nhlengethwa. No answer.
3:16:36am - Mr Nhlengethwa. Reported gunshots (perhaps on behalf of his wife?).

Security other:

3:16am - Mr. Johnson (gun owner). Heard gunshots - backed up by security phone records.

Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

Thanks for this - only issue I see is that Johnson reported gunshots at 3:17 - right after he got off the phone with the wrong security company. He made no further calls when he heard the second "shots"

 

[minor4th]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10711566/Oscar-Pistorius-to-sell-house-where-he-shot-Reeva-to-cover-legal-fees.html

I have been completely turned around on where the bedroom and balcony were this whole time :blushing:

 

[minor4th]

Any idea why they didn't hear the cricket batshots? :waitasec:

They weren't as loud?

 

[ColonelMustard]

Did you hear the two woman scream in court today? I would guess that sound could be interpreted as "blood curdling" - Mr and Mrs N both said it was high pitched also. It's reasonable to believe that screaming is what all the witnesses heard - they just applied different interpretations.

"blood curdling"? To me they sounded like baying hounds, wounded baying hounds.

I think it was just a ruse by Roux to try to get the idea of "high pitch" into people's minds.

Roux never asked M. Berger or Mrs. Stipp to give it a whirl nor any men. It was lame to ask these two women to do that. I feel confident that M'lady saw right through it - maybe she even secretly cringed inside both because it was ridiculous but also if they were both black. If they were, Roux asked them to make fools of themselves but didn't ask any of the white women to.

 

[liesbeth]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed - sorry if so.
Stander said oscar called him Oom, as in "please, please, please come, Oom! "
Oom indicates to me a closeness that Mr Stander then seemed to downplay. To call him Oom and to phone him in the panic after shooting Reeva says to me they are very close.

Good point. But it does not imply closeness. "Oom" literally means uncle (a parent's brother) but is traditionally used in Afrikaans as a title of respect for an older male person. No closeness needed.

 

[minor4th]

The prosecution could benefit from a large poster with the above timeline at closing imo.

For sure, someone needs to lay it out visually. I bet they will both have demonstrative evidence to visually depict their timelines and their case.

 

[minor4th]

Good point. But it does not imply closeness. "Oom" literally means uncle (a parent's brother) but is traditionally used in Afrikaans as a title of respect for an older male person. No closeness needed.

Thank you so much for clearing that up. I was wondering if it was used as a title of respect for an older gentleman - as I know of other communities that use "uncle" in this way. That fits with Stander acting as a "mentor" in some respects with Oscar. That is the impression I get from Stander's testimony.

 

[Karmady]

"blood curdling"? To me they sounded like baying hounds, wounded baying hounds.

I think it was just a ruse by Roux to try to get the idea of "high pitch" into people's minds.

Roux never asked M. Berger or Mrs. Stipp to give it a whirl nor any men. It was lame to ask these two women to do that. I feel confident that M'lady saw right through it - maybe she even secretly cringed inside both because it was ridiculous but also if they were both black. If they were, Roux asked them to make fools of themselves but didn't ask any of the white women to.

bbm~

Really???? Your best friend is rubbing off on you I think!