Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[vansleuths]

Let's assume that OP is found guilty and is sentenced to jail. I'm sure the defence would request an appeal, this happens every time.

1. Between the time of his sentencing and his appeal, would OP be in jail?

2. Is every defendant who is found guilty granted an appeal?

 

[Nausicaa]

Well of course Nel wanted to suggest that but it's really not possible that it was the second sounds (cricket bat) that Mrs N heard (and yes, I mistakenly called her Mrs M :blushing.

To suggest that second bangs woke her up, after which she heard "help, help, help" - Nel has to discredit his own witnesses who heard the help, help, help before the second bangshots - to wit, Mr Johnson, Mrs Burger, and Mrs Stipp, who all heard the "help, help, help" before the second bangshots;

It also undermines Dr Stipp's testimony because he said that the last bangshots happened just as he concluded his phone call with security - which was at 3:17. Mr N called security before 3:17 and his wife had already heard one shot and the "help, help, help!"

Still the same simplistic approach Minor ? What if there were two sets of "help! help! help!", one between the two sets of "bangshots" and one after ?

Note that Dr Stipp's failure to hear a second set of "Help, help, help!" after the second set of shots is not testimony that it didn't happen. Let's not turn the absence of positive testimony into negative testimony. Before supposing any witness to be directly lying it is reasonable to make some efforts to reconcile the factual testimony.

Note too that Dr Stipp is a priori the most credible witness we have. He is neither a friend nor a dependent, nor again an enemy, of the accused. He is a professional man. His evidence is clear, firm and doesn't vary. He delivers it without spin. He is clearly right in the face of contrary evidence on one major point, namely that Reeva was already dead when he arrived and had been for some time. The Defence is reduced to pretending that it is a weakness that his wife agrees with him (1+1=0).

In fact, it is quite obvious that what Mrs N heard was the end of the second set of "shot bangs".

Some who witnessed all or part of the second set did not hear screams or calls for help before, nor any of the first set. That's because they were asleep or otherwise distracted.

It is clear that some witnesses are giving their evidence a pro-OP spin ("a broken man" forsooth!), but it is not clear to me that we are getting many outright lies. Taking a syncretic approach we have two sets of "bang shots" and two sets of cries for help and other cries (Afrikaans "skree") in the order bangs - cries -bangs -cries.

There is nothing impossible about that. Personally I think it's what happened.

 

[Lyra500]

Let's assume that OP is found guilty and is sentenced to jail. I'm sure the defence would request an appeal, this happens every time.

1. Between the time of his sentencing and his appeal, would OP be in jail?

2. Is every defendant who is found guilty granted an appeal?

I read a post yesterday (on here I think) which suggested that appeal defendants were allowed out on bail even if convicted of murder. I do hope that isn't true as it seems outrageous.

 

[Giles]

watching the Tuesday proceedings and struck by these defense witnesses who seem to be "lying" on the stand. It almost seems like they have all been promised something by the defense or more probably OP himself (since he is out and free to do anything) . Now one says Reeva was introduced as fiance???? Even OP himself did not go that far. I sure hope the judge is seeing this amazing parade of OP supporters on the heels of a very long break.

turaj, I too would be interested to hear why you think these witnesses are lying, and about what?

 

[Nausicaa]

So the witness said 'fiancee' and should have said 'girlfriend'.

I can't see the importance of this, unless I'm missing something.

Oh, you conclude that your witness is wrong ? What if the witness is right ? (It has been known to happen!)

 

[steveml]

BIB Not sure this is correct. I think Dr Stipp first tried to call Silverwoods security but got no answer. He then tried 10111 (SA National Emergency) but couldn't get through. Both Mr and Mrs Stipp then hear three more loud bangs at 03:17 on clock radio (less 3/4 mins). Dr Stipp then calls security (Baba) at 03:15:51 (16 seconds) after which he hears a man shouting help three times. Nthlengethwa's call was after this, at 03:16:36 (44 seconds). He tried at 3:16:13 and couldn't get through.

From what I remember both the Stipp's evidence regarding the call was conflicting.

Johan Stipp indicated that he heard the bangs whilst he was still using the phone.

Annette Stipp indicated that 'they heard three more shots and her husband called security'.

Take your pick really - is the guy who was making the call correct, or is his wife correct?

 

[Karmady]

So the witness said 'fiancee' and should have said 'girlfriend'.

I can't see the importance of this, unless I'm missing something.

It would make sense for him to refer to her that way to a close by neighbor and family man with children since Reeva apparently was spending nights there. I've heard that done before to put some legitimacy to the relationship.

jmo

 

[thewagesofsin]

So the witness said 'fiancee' and should have said 'girlfriend'.

I can't see the importance of this, unless I'm missing something.

If one really wanted to make something of it I imagine the point is that the defense is trying to make this 3 month long relationship look as loving as possible. "Oscar couldn't have killed someone he cared for so much" type of thing.

 

[acejase]

What a damp squib of a day! What use are these witnesses if none of them heard the shots, and none of them can prove OP screamed like a woman? And as for Frank, who was actually staying in a room next to the kitchen on the night Reeva was murdered, I can't understand why he wasn't subpoenaed. I don't believe he heard nothing. That's just too incredulous. So he probably heard exactly what happened, but doesn't want to risk damning OP. But even so, he would have been an extremely important witness. Any chance he was warned off from testifying?

maybe nel will use him in his summoning up and say why didnt oscer call him to help carry rs instead of calling someone mins away just to put in in the judges head at the end

 

[jilly]

BBM... Nor did they hear the gunshots.

This is really strange. The screams apparently were "blood curdling" which I don't doubt at all. So what now? Do the pros and defense witnesses cancel each other out? Will Nel now need to bring in an expert to testify as to how sound travels?

 

[Viper]

BBM

I shan't be thanking that post. It's family ridicule based on nothing more than speculation.

Pfft. Thanks for telling me. I would have been up all night wondering why you didn't Thank my post. LOL!!!

 

[sleuth-d-]

Still the same simplistic approach Minor ? What if there were two sets of "help! help! help!", one between the two sets of "bangshots" and one after ?

Note that Dr Stipp's failure to hear a second set of "Help, help, help!" after the second set of shots is not testimony that it didn't happen. Let's not turn the absence of positive testimony into negative testimony. Before supposing any witness to be directly lying it is reasonable to make some efforts to reconcile the factual testimony.

Note too that Dr Stipp is a priori the most credible witness we have. He is neither a friend nor a dependent, nor again an enemy, of the accused. He is a professional man. His evidence is clear, firm and doesn't vary. He delivers it without spin. He is clearly right in the face of contrary evidence on one major point, namely that Reeva was already dead when he arrived and had been for some time. The Defence is reduced to pretending that it is a weakness that his wife agrees with him (1+1=0).

In fact, it is quite obvious that what Mrs N heard was the end of the second set of "shot bangs".

Some who witnessed all or part of the second set did not hear screams or calls for help before, nor any of the first set. That's because they were asleep or otherwise distracted.

It is clear that some witnesses are giving their evidence a pro-OP spin ("a broken man" forsooth!), but it is not clear to me that we are getting many outright lies. Taking a syncretic approach we have two sets of "bang shots" and two sets of cries for help and other cries (Afrikaans "skree") in the order bangs - cries -bangs -cries.

There is nothing impossible about that. Personally I think it's what happened.

bbm
just to add to your view on dr stipp's credibility - which i agree with - he did say he heard the helphelphelp after the second set of 'bangs'. so totally in line with today's witnesses.

he even went as far as to describe it as coming from off to the left [i.e. from the bedroom balcony area] which ties in with where op said he yelled helphelphelp.

 

[Mr Fossil]

From what I remember both the Stipp's evidence regarding the call was conflicting.

Johan Stipp indicated that he heard the bangs whilst he was still using the phone.

Annette Stipp indicated that 'they heard three more shots and her husband called security'.

Take your pick really - is the guy who was making the call correct, or is his wife correct?

From what I recall they both are, there is no conflict. Dr Stipp hears the three bangs after calling 10111 and getting fast rings and considering who to call next. Annette Stipp walks back in at 3:17 on clock radio (less 3/4 mins) when husband couldn't get through on 10111 and hear three more shots. They then call Baba.

 

[zwiebel]

So the witness said 'fiancee' and should have said 'girlfriend'.

I can't see the importance of this, unless I'm missing something.

Giggle. I do believe you are.

Diamond ring (nicest you can afford)
Party to celebrate
Announcement to friends/family
Answering endless questions about 'when's the big day then?'
Answering endless questions about houses/family plans etc
The beginning of THE plans for THE wedding (that will gradually increase to THE WEDDING as the day nears and there is all that stuff)

And....there's probably more but I got bored with the whole lot, threw up my hands and got married on the hop, managed to be late to my own wedding (but hubby was with me), then had to be gently evicted from the venue as we were both a little drunk, and everyone else had gone home......we had a lovely time though.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Indeed.

The watch I would tend to doubt was given to OP to have while in jail as it ws said to be quite expensive.

And yes it is one (strange) thing for the top cop to allow the sister --into the bedroom (a crime scene) minutes sfter the shooting to take her own brother's watch and clothing.

But it is a totally different thing to allow the suspect's sister to take the victim's bag with contents that could not be viewed (the phone?), from the crime scene.

Shane here is a video of yesterday's proceedings. It was Roux who brought up the issue. See 26m45s

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 5 May 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

 

[steveml]

So do you think it was acceptable behaviour for a family member of the accused to remove possessions which belonged to the deceased away from the crime scene?

To answer that I'd have to know more about the relationship between Aimee and Reeva. I don't, so therefore I abstain from speculating either way. What I do know is that there hasn't been an issue brought before the court regarding this. That can be said without speculation. In any case, what were the SAPS doing regarding security?

I do however think it's unacceptable behaviour to steal from a crime scene. That again can be said without speculation.

 

[minor4th]

You question someone's claim that today's witnesses may have been less than honest and then turn around and say you don't trust the witnesses to Pistorius' alleged comment to Kim Myers. I don't believe that today's witnesses were lying nor those who reported the post-proceedings exchange. You choose to defend one and denigrate the other. So I'd ask your question: why would they (journo, Ms Myers) be lying? If it's because she was Reeva's friend, well some of the defence witnesses been OP's.

No, I said I don't trust Van Staden - it's in my posts. I also followed with a comment that I don't trust OP either.

But none of that has anything to do with today's witnesses. So I'm genuinely asking what you think they lied about.

 

[Cherwell]

I'd still like to see exactly what Ipad cover that was...there is the one that is 79$ that is brushed leather and very nice but it hooks to via magnet and falls off constantly. The other covers on the Ipads? Most do not just "fall off" or become seperated. how on earth did the cover come off that Ipad? Was she looking at cars again online? Why don't we know the last URL's that were visited on the Iphone and or Ipads in that home? There seems to be a few things missing for me in this case...and; the crime scene Does Not Match OP story in any way. He makes me sick; watching him in the courtroom. I really hope he is given his due reward in a cell. This judge is really worrying me; the least squeak from anyone and she takes a break; I have huge issues with her at this point.

What exactly do you find "worrying", and why? I have no "issues" with the judge at all. She is doing her best to ensure that this is, and is seen to be, a fair trial. She is treading very carefully, to avoid any possible grounds for appeal. I couldn't give a fig how many breaks they take, as long as the outcome is just.

 

[steveml]

Giggle. I do believe you are.

Diamond ring (nicest you can afford)
Party to celebrate
Announcement to friends/family
Answering endless questions about 'when's the big day then?'
Answering endless questions about houses/family plans etc
The beginning of THE plans for THE wedding (that will gradually increase to THE WEDDING as the day nears and there is all that stuff)

And....there's probably more but I got bored with the whole lot, threw up my hands and got married on the hop, managed to be late to my own wedding (but hubby was with me), then had to be gently evicted from the venue as we were both a little drunk, and everyone else had gone home......we had a lovely time though.

I did laugh at this :smile:

You got me there.

 

[shane13]

Shane here is a video of yesterday's proceedings. It was Roux who brought up the issue.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 5 May 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

See 26m45s

Thank you kindly, IB.

Her first words, at that time were, 'the fact that we took the handbag...'
Who is we? She and Aimee? CS notes that Carl was there early too,

Again it seems I was right, all these improper actions seem to have come from van Rensburg.

So I think it was all a charade, when an extra watch went missing and all cops and their cars were searched, with extra watch found... Was it in Reeva's bag held/taken by Aimee?

Possible Contents of Reeva's bag that left the crime scene;
5th phone
.38 ammo
Extra watch or two to blame cops for bumbling.
Memory stick?
What else?


As I 've said for a year;
This one runs deep.

ETA: WO Botha has indicated that Carl P and/or Oldwage may have taken the .38 ammo.
Like the song, was it "a family affair"?