Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[sleuth-d-]

Looks as though the link has been removed.

try this

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pistorius-housekeeper-inside-home-shooting/story?id=23602899

 

[vansleuths]

I've just done a quick 'at a glance' table showing witnesses testimony regarding the scream/talking/crying/help sounds. Feel free to use this for reference or modify as required.

I've erred on the side of caution and included a tick against Estelle Van der Merwe for both Reeva and OP's crying sounds, as she thought it was Reeva but her husband told her it was OP.

Thank you for your work on this, this helps.

Not sure if you have this information handy, but if you did, it would be really beneficial as to who heard the first set of bangs, who heard the second set and who heard both.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think you missed my point.

OP is up on four other charges besides murder. As I understand it, those charges can carry a custodial sentence. So assuming he is found guilty on a firearms charge, he could well be imprisoned for that immediately. A completely separate issue from the hypothetical appeal against a murder conviction. So while hypothetically he might get bail for that alone, he would still be in prison for the other offence.

looking at his personality, i imagine he will appeal all charges...

 

[Murphys_Law]

This picture looks like her back wound.

Interesting ...Is this a filtered version of one of bruises in the photos below or is yours a different bruise?

The first two thumbnails are screen captures from Botha's or Mangena's testimony (the second of which is just a close up of larger of the two bruises, and shows the striations)

The third thumbnail is a photo of two bruises, that was presented during the Omni-Expert's (Dixon) testimony -- which I had assumed (right or wrong) was the same set of bruises.

 

[Val1]

Bateman spoke to John Webb from the Oscar Trial 199 TV channel the day before yesterday. I have it on PVR.

Bateman told Webb that a reliable source had said that Frank did have something to offer at one time, but suddenly Frank clammed up and said he knows nothing.

Frankly I don't believe him. (no pun intended)

Perhaps Frank was one of the two witnesses that the PT had hoped would testify but that had gotten cold feet?

 

[lithgow1]

Stay away from my large screen TV!!!

Interpretations of state of mind are always gonna cause conflict, because everyone has their own history and beliefs about what is rational or normal or whatnot. I disagree with you about OP's paranoia.That's that.

I'm old enough to have learned that very little in the world is black and white. Lots of gray. Lots of little square pegs that can't be smacked into round holes no matter how much we want them to go there.

As I've said again and again and again. I don't like OP. I think he has a serious anger problem. I think he should never be allowed to own a gun again, no matter what the verdict. I think he is incapable of taking responsibility for himself and his actions. I think he has not told the whole truth about what happened that night.

When I add all that up with the "evidence" I see a man who could very well have flown into a frenzy when he believed he heard an intruder. I believe OP could fire 4 shots in a situation where another would fire none or one. I do not think he is "innocent, " but I think he is not guilty of the premeditated murder of Reeva. Big difference.

Thanks again. Just a question if you have time and inclination. When you say you don't think he has told the whole truth of what happened, what omissions or falsehoods are you referring to? Do you think that it's likely he did genuinely think it was an intruder but has told the story so as to try and paint himself in the best possible light?

 

[sleuth-d-]

OK, I understand, but why wouldn't the Defence call him. I suppose they too would be afraid of what he might said during Nel's Crossx.

in the interests of justice, can the judge have any say? wtf, the man was in the house on the night of the shooting.

 

[steveml]

I may add:

... unexplained damages all around the home
... unexplained survive (RS) for min. 20 minutes
... unexplained missing calls re. rescue
... unexplained disappearing of safe content
... unexplained disappearing of white shirt
... unexplained disappearing of phone
... unexplained disappearing of bag
... explained disappearing of a watch
... unexplained consumerist of alcohol
... unexplained consumerist of drugs
... unexplained spending hours between 10pm and 3am
... unexplained everything important to know

BBM

Unexplained damage around the house - This isn't OP's fault or problem. Nel's the prosecutor, it's his job to ask if he believes there's anything untoward.

Unexplained disappearing safe content. The safe contents were removed after being photographed. As far as I'm aware, it's not been claimed that anything has disappeared. It's quite obvious that everything was carried out under police supervision, as there wouldn't be a charge for illegal possession of ammunition otherwise. I can't possibly buy the fact that incriminating things were smuggled out, but Oldwage thought 'we'll leave the bullets in there to throw them off the scent - it'a only a possible five year stretch for OP.'

Unexplained disappearing of phone. The phone was retrieved, the data was retrieved successfully and the phone had not been tampered with. Other than perhaps an initial delay all that can be claimed is some kind of conspiracy theory. The prosecution haven't claimed any such thing, and therefore it's a non-issue with regard to the outcome of the trial.

Unexplained consumerist of alcohol I haven't seen any alcolhol consumption claimed by the state in the trial I've been following. OP was found to have zero alcohol in his body when tested, that's as explained as it can get.

Unexplained consumerist of drugs Other than Botha's irrational claim of drums and needles found within the home, which likely contributed to him being removed from the case, what drug issue remains to be explained?
There is nothing remotely sinister about the product that was found in the house, and during the trial we've only heard about Reeva smoking cannabis, which is hardly the crime of the century.

Unexplained disappearance of bag This has been explained. We've been told who took it. If it's believed it shouldn't have been taken, then it was Nel's job to bring it to the courts attention. He's the prosecutor.

Unexplained missing calls - I'm not aware that calls are 'missing'? Please elaborate.

 

[BritsKate]

I think OP is definitely paranoid in the sense of "seeing enemies everywhere". The Brazilian racer who beat him is a cheater. The Stipps are liars. Ditto ST, DF, and the young lady whose leg he injured in anger. He confronted Ms. Myers yesterday because she was one of his many enemies, like MB, Mr. VdB, and the unknown driver he thought was following him, who OP felt compelled to confront.

I call this blame-shifting which doesn't equal paranoia for me personally but could certainly be mistaken for it. It's something my ex, dx'd NPD/APD and abusive, did constantly. It was always someone else's fault, he was never to blame, no one could ever appease him enough, he felt it necessary to 'get others' before 'being got', and he consistently felt driven to denigrate others to make himself appear superior. How much of that was his abusive personality and how much were his psychiatric disorders, I will never know, but I'm not certain one could be separated from the other anyway.

Ironically, in looking for an article to describe blame-shifting, I found one stating blame-shifting being a recurring theme to Oscar Pistorius. :biggrin:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/9957975/Pistorius-blame-shifting-a-recurring-theme

 

[Cymbaline]

Interesting ...Is this a filtered version of one of bruises in the photos below or is yours a different bruise?

The first two thumbnails are screen captures from Botha's or Mangena's testimony (the second of which is just a close up of larger of the two bruises, and shows the striations)

The third thumbnail is a photo of two bruises, that was presented during the Omni-Expert's (Dixon) testimony -- which I had assumed (right or wrong) was the same set of bruises.

It's a bullet proof vest with a gunshot.

 

[Nausicaa]

[...]
Odd that one would accept a googled image of gross arterial gush/spurt and make a determination that the spatter in question is not arterial.

So you yourself have not seen a pic which you think corresponds to arterial spurt pattern either ? I went through the pics pretty carefully and I couldn’t find anything close, but I’m wide open to seeing what is claimed to be definitely arterial.

Do provide a link if possible to a report of Dr. Saayman's statement that "vital functions would have ceased." I would be surprised if he used that language.

His actual words were: "the deceased probably didn't breathe more than a few times after sustaining this wound" and "The wound to the head was incapacitating and probably almost instantly fatal." As you know there is no video or audio of his evidence but you can find those words reported here. I was summarizing what I understand to be the meaning.

Often a physician's expert testimony is simplified to minimize confusion by lay people, to emphasize the main points. IMO Dr. Saayman wanted to emphasize that the GSW to the brain was last. This together with the bullet trajectories decimates the DT contention that the GSW to the head was first and Reeva never uttered a whimper, much less screamed while going down. Dr. Saymaan's testimony does not preclude the heart beating weakly or erratically for a few minutes.

To my mind it makes it so unlikely that I want clear proof that the heart was still beating when he was carrying Reeva down those stairs. Moreover, even if there was some residual heartbeat there had been massive blood loss and there were several major arteries severed, which makes for dribbles rather than spurts.

doubt Nel would elicit what could appear to be 'contradictory' testimony from his experts without having a purpose. Roux would also have exploited this to discredit Saayman or the blood spatter expert to weaken/discredit their testimony IF it could possibly do that.

I don't think Nest's reference to arterial "spurt" was seen as an issue. Neither the defence case nor the prosecution case rests on when exactly Reeva died as long as it can't be proved to be before 3.15. Nest may even have been influenced by OP’s story that Reeva was still alive as long as that hadn’t been challenged. I was watching the debate with Viper as a fence-sitter seeing strong arguments for both sides, until I realised that one of the strong arguments I was relying on was my impression that Standers, Stipp and co. had seen Reeva still alive. When I realised no one but OP had seen any sign of life I then checked the pics against what is set out on arterial spurt in my modest forensics library…

Mrs Stipp's testimony also supports screams & gunshots last -> ending the screaming; all of which support premeditated murder.

No one who believes OP to be guilty believes OP was carrying a 'dying' Reeva to save her or get real help, she was already dead. He was reacting to the enormity and finality of what he'd just done. The bargaining with God was to save himself. The remorse and stories the "but I didn't mean it/I didn't really do it" of someone who's really, really caught.

So self centered, his 'version' came first with every contact that morning "I thought she was an intruder" .... well I put to everyone that a reasonable person who just accidentally shot a loved one would be screaming to 911 'get here now' or 'Reeva needs help,' 'I need some help for Reeva' throwing in I shot her but it was an accident in there at some point, but NOT making it the primary focus.

I agree with the above.

Also unclear about the use of the term 'medics', it can be broad.

In the absence of WS verified status we are left to identify who appears to have or not to have professional competence in certain fields. My impression is that Viper, your good self and Jake are probably all qualified doctors, but that impression doesn't bind anyone else. And being a qualified doctor doesn’t stop you focussing on the arguments on one side of an issue to the exclusion of the others any more than being a lawyer does.

 

[Viper]

It's odd.

It is what it is. I imagine that Reeva dropped immediately just as Magena said, with her head on the toilet seat and her right arm dangling down. That would explain the "heavy" bleeding in to the toilet and at Reeva's right hip. Somehow her shirt was just out of the way of the gushes of blood from the massive wound to her arm (severed artery).

 

[thewagesofsin]

According to OP's friend's story, at Christmas his young son was confronted in the middle of the night by a gun-toting OP who'd mistaken him for an intruder. OP must have thought later about the ramifications if he'd shot him, i.e. thinking through various scenarios, excuses, etc.

Holy cow. If that's true this guy sounds like a SNL sketch. If I was in the same building as him I'd be ducking for cover if I accidentally dropped something or had to sneeze.. If this guy is so afraid of intruders, why doesn't he get more security and a rape door? People this skittish should not be allowed around firearms, let alone own one.

 

[TorisMom003]

Holy cow. If that's true this guy sounds like a SNL sketch. If I was in the same building as him I'd be ducking for cover if I accidentally dropped something or had to sneeze.. If this guy is so afraid of intruders, why doesn't he get more security and a rape door? People this skittish should not be allowed around firearms, let alone own one.

Don't forget the "going commando" on a running washing machine as well. However OP didn't shoot the washing machine at that time.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Quote: Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)
-----------
Can someone add the time that Dr Stripp heard 2nd round gun shots

I'm working my way through this (backwards)! Baba says that the guard reported hearing rifle shots 'around, past three' (this is through translator) and after a few moments Baba receives telephone calls from Dr Stipp and Mr Nhlengethwa. 'After a few moments' suggests to me that the 'around, past three' may be nearer 03:14 and that the guard is reporting the same shots being reported by Stipp and Nhlengethwa. Does anyone else have a view?

 

[thewagesofsin]

looking at his personality, i imagine he will appeal all charges...

I can see him denying everything until the day he dies. Unless he changes his life he'll run into problems again. Even OJ eventually got what was coming to him.

 

[crasshopper]

What does AFAIK mean? Tnx

 

[Cymbaline]

It is what it is. I imagine that Reeva dropped immediately just as Magena said, with her head on the toilet seat and her right arm dangling down. That would explain the "heavy" bleeding in to the toilet and at Reeva's right hip. Somehow her shirt was just out of the way of the gushes of blood from the massive wound to her arm (severed artery).

Okay, but shouldn't blood be on the toilet room walls?

 

[TorisMom003]

What does AFAIK mean? Tnx

As Far As I Know

 

[thewagesofsin]

Don't forget the "going commando" on a running washing machine as well. However OP didn't shoot the washing machine at that time.

In his defense, he probably didn't hear "wood moving" that time. :smile: