Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Hope4More]

But he didn't hit her with many ricochets. He hit her in the head with the third or fourth shot.

I know. Was trying to say that every one of those bullets going thru the door had high odds of hitting her, directly or indirectly, given the small space.

 

[Carmelita]

What else is Wollie wrong about, in your opinion.

Regarding my use of the image, I disagree with your comment. You were brazen enough to post an image of a paper target that someone shot at while stationary, standing steady on both legs or seated, while having full view of his stationary paper target. And then you attempted to use that as a comparison to OP wabbling on his stumps on a slippery tiled floor, shooting while he was moving from left to right, and holding his gun with just one hand and the other hand bracing his wobbly body on the wall, shooting at Reeva as she fell and he moved from left to right.

If you do not accept my image, post your own that shows something much more comparable than the one that you passed off to the forum; mine was exact!

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I do not think that you posted an “inexact” image of Reeva’s head. I don’t really know what you mean when you say “ If you do not accept my image” Eh? It is an image widely circulated on the internet and is public domain.


The image of Reeva’s head would be the only one available of a woman who has been shot to death by a double amputee through a closed toilet door so I think it is a rather petulant and absurd request to ask me to find another comparable image.

As to Oscar’s wobbling, I thought that you have continuously insisted that Oscar was not disabled, consistency of argument goes a long way in putting legitimacy to one’s opinions.

 

[Carmelita]

But we were asking how he knew where to shoot, to get that clean headshot. And you replied that he might have done so after hearing noises of movement.
At least I thought that was what you were saying...


PASTED BELOW:
Carmelita:
Or he heard a noise that he perceived as an aggressive intruder and he shot at the noise.

I'm sorry I don't know where the confusion is. The noise he heard before Oscar shot was Reeva's movement in the toilet. He did not hear noises after the first shot he just shot.

 

[Zuri]

You mean to the right of the toilet room as you're facing the door? If so, he would have to have been standing in a different location to make that angle through the door. He would have had to enter all the way into the room and either stand in front of the door or pass by the front of it and stand to the left.

tons of images at this link:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...40DEE05BFC92CB2F54998F994E7EB53&FORM=IQFRBA#a

Thank you so much. :seeya:

 

[Viper]

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/door-is-key-to-oscar-defence-1.1476164



That would mean in RP's opinion (and according to OP's version ) she was still alive after the head shot, after OP running back and forth , screaming help from balcony, putting on his legs , beating door in with the bat. Still alive after being dragged out of toilet , after the phone calls to Stander, Netcare and security, after going downstairs to open the door. Alive when OP came back to the bathroom lifted her off the floor and carried her down the stairs.

He goes on to say that he could tell by the time she got to the bottom of the steps she was already dead. So in RP's opinion, blood markings on the stairs suggested she was still alive while being carried down the stairs but died before reaching the last steps.

How would RP's opinion at that time, now fit in with the time-line of how long Reeva would have lived according to OP's claim that the shots came first ?

Doesn't look like we going to hear his answer to this question since he apparently is not now testifying , so his lips are sealed.

Thanks WhiteRum!

Many here will not follow what you just posted, please allow me to give just a couple of details to enhance.

Reggie Perumal is OPs expert pathologist that attended the autopsy. He was speaking about Reeva's death in an interview a few weeks after her murder, for PR purposes to promote positive public opinion about OP. His statements in that interview were based upon the DT version back then as laid out in OPs bail affidavit. If you read the affidavit time literally flies by! It is as if OP shot Reeva, seconds later broke down the door, and then immediately carried her downstairs. No more than 1.5-2 minutes of time passed between the events. So it is understandable that Perumal would give an interview back then, before we knew the timestamps that we know now, and assert with confidence that Reeva died a few minutes after being shot as she was carried down the stairs.

But as you rightfully point out, Dr. Perumal is not willing today to take the stand for OP and repeat any of those words!

 

[Karmady]

Thank you so much. :seeya:

You're welcome. Hope you're doing well. Noticed that I hadn't seen you around here lately :seeya:

 

[sorrell skye]

Sorry, but no that is not the consensus. Or at least I am not included in that consensus. OP fired the first bullet at center mass, which would include Reeva's stomach, but he missed and instead hit her in the hip. I don't believe that he could see her through a crack in the door. There was a pause as he acquired his aim and then he fired the following three bullets targeted at her voice, her mouth, her head.

BTW. When OP was asked about where he would have fired if he had wanted to hit the intruder behind the door OP said he would have fired to the extreme right of the door near the door frame, above the handle.

BBM

I agree with your conclusion that OP followed Reeva's voice as he fired the last 3 shots. I think the only reason he stopped firing was because Reeva stopped screaming.

Regarding the bolded bit: I think you've pointed out something very important here.

In his version,OP claimed that he believed the door was opening because he heard "wood moving" - which led him to believe that the 'intruder' was coming out of the toilet room.

If he truly believed the 'intruder' was coming out of the toilet, he would have fired in the area described in bolded bit of your post above, as he himself stated in his testimony. The trajectory of the bullets would have been different, IMO, and his aim would have been higher (above the handle, rather than below).

I'm convinced he purposefully aimed, fired in the direction of Reeva's screams, and killed her. I'm also convinced he would have kept shooting until Reeva's screams had been extinguished, or until he emptied his gun, whichever came first.

 

[soozieqtips]

Oscar has incredible upper body strength and is very familiar with firing a gun and no I do not think that it is a tight grouping even with all things considered.

BBM - Yes. You'd think with that incredible upper body strength, he'd have been able to lift Reeva by himself, and not need to call Johan Stander for 'help' in lifting her. Strangely enough, OP did manage to lift her all by himself, because the Standers saw him carrying her when they turned up. But then not so strangely, OP had no recollection about lifting or carrying Reeva (who he needed 'help' with lifting moments earlier) down to the second landing. In my opinion, he didn't need any help lifting her at all, and like you said - he has incredible upper body strength, so he must have called Stander for a different reason IMO. A reason he'll keep to himself, like so many other things.

 

[Jake18]

Yes, that is by far the best stand-alone piece of evidence against OP's version IMHO. This was raised here at WS well before that article - by Jake18 and others. Saayman said "a few more breaths after the head shot", and even the DT’s own witness, Jan Botha, said "death ensued very quickly after sustaining the head injury” (note: these are not exact quotes). Very powerful statements uncontested (and even endorsed) by the DT.

Pistorius said at trial "She was sitting with her weight on top of the toilet bowl. I checked to see if she was breathing and she wasn't … I pulled her weight on to me and I sat there crying for some time. I felt her head on my shoulder and I could feel the blood running down me. … I thought I felt her breathing. I could see her arm was broken. … I was trying to pick Reeva up. I could see she was still breathing. She was struggling to breathe.”

From the affidavit “I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.”

So from affidavit to trial, OP has been consistent on this point.

From first bangs to "she was still breathing" we’re talking about what, a time interval from 3:00 - 3:15, 3:00 - 3:20? That simply isn’t possible if the only shots fired are in the 3:00 am zone - as the DT wants us to believe - given the statements by the two pathologists, who have not been challenged on this.

Now the DT has tried to push those “first shots” out to 3:05 or something. That’s my recollection. Maybe they are dimly aware of the glaring problem here.

What’s amazing is Nel hasn’t pounded the table on this. Why not? We have people sipping coffee at keyboards figuring his out while Nel is busy spraying mist at laser beams. Very strange.[/QUOTE]

BIB : I'm sure he has but making an issue out of the timeline -especially when the DT have been so deliberately vague about it - could have been potentially harmful, I think. For all the PT knew there could well have been a DT ear witness who said something like' "I am a watch repairer and all the time keeping devices in my house keep perfect time, as I am passionate about this. I was awake for hours on the night in question, writing an essay about "Time Keeping Devices in Victorian Literature". I distinctly heard two sets of bangs, one at 3:12 am and the other at 3:15 am. I am absolutely convinced of the times because I was boiling an egg and I am also passionate about perfectly soft boiled eggs..." Had Nel made an issue about it being impossible for OP to see Reeva's last breaths after 10-15 minutes (based on the Stipps' testimonies) he would have had to back track. As it turns out all the DT really gave us was women imitating the wailing/crying they identified as being from a man who says he screams like a woman.

I also wonder if trying to be firm about the time line would have necessitated the PT doing their own sound tests and it's been so much more fun watching the DT bumble through theirs.

Finally, one of the big differences with a judge only trial seems to be that more evidence/information is presented without a lot of explanation. In a jury trial theres a lot more of "Im going to tell you about xyz", followed by "Right now Im showing you xyz" and then "As we have demonstrated with xyz..." whereas more in this trial seem to be left to the judge's discretion.

Anyway, back to the door - I'm lurking whilst supposedly looking after the kids - and I'm enjoying the debate.

 

[Val1]

You mean to the right of the toilet room as you're facing the door? If so, he would have to have been standing in a different location to make that angle through the door. He would have had to enter all the way into the room and either stand in front of the door or pass by the front of it and stand to the left.

tons of images at this link:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...40DEE05BFC92CB2F54998F994E7EB53&FORM=IQFRBA#a

How do you figure that? The bullet holes are mostly in the right side of the door, the only reason they didn't hit the right side of the toilet room is because OP wasn't aiming in that direction, he was aiming towards RS, or the toilet itself if you'd rather believe that... don't forget the shower was on the right and the door was pretty much flush with that wall. Ohhh that must be it, OP was so worried he'd accidentally hit the shower door and be hit with his own bullet that he had to aim to the left side of the toilet room.:facepalm:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73678000/jpg/_73678623_pistorius_door_624in.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ASXTXHoOs48/Uah89M8HYYI/AAAAAAAAD8o/YGhF6LQPc_Y/s400/24-hour-usage-only-1923561.jpg

 

[Really?]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_hle5shsDY

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 3 At 16:59 the truth comes out....

" I wanted to ask Reeva why she's phoning the police." 

Yep...boom there it is......truth.

 

[Really?]

hwow: What a find HFH!! Freudian slip maybe? An accidental truth from OP?

OP may well have been screaming at Reeva, but it wasn't to "get down and call the police" Quite the opposite.

Was Reeva going to call the police to report an assault? OP shot her to prevent that call?

Yes and........yes.

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM

I agree with your conclusion that OP followed Reeva's voice as he fired the last 3 shots. I think the only reason he stopped firing was because Reeva stopped screaming.

Regarding the bolded bit: I think you've pointed out something very important here.

In his version,OP claimed that he believed the door was opening because he heard "wood moving" - which led him to believe that the 'intruder' was coming out of the toilet room.

If he truly believed the 'intruder' was coming out of the toilet, he would have fired in the area described in bolded bit of your post above, as he himself stated in his testimony. The trajectory of the bullets would have been different, IMO, and his aim would have been higher (above the handle, rather than below).

I'm convinced he purposefully aimed, fired in the direction of Reeva's screams, and killed her. I'm also convinced he would have kept shooting until Reeva's screams had been extinguished, or until he emptied his gun, whichever came first.

Hi Sorrell - BBM - can you remember if Nel asked OP why he didn't fire in the direction of the handle? I did watch the testimony that day, but I can't remember if it was addressed or not. I guess if it was addressed, the response may have been any of the following:

1. I didn't have time to think
2. I was terrified and in fear for my life
3. I'm confused by the question
4. I was terrified and in fear for my life
5. I didn't say that
6. I was terrified and in fear for my life

 

[Carmelita]

How do you figure that? The bullet holes are mostly in the right side of the door, the only reason they didn't hit the right side of the toilet room is because OP wasn't aiming in that direction, he was aiming towards RS, or the toilet itself if you'd rather believe that... don't forget the shower was on the right and the door was pretty much flush with that wall. Ohhh that must be it, OP was so worried he'd accidentally hit the shower door and be hit with his own bullet that he had to aim to the left side of the toilet room.:facepalm:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73678000/jpg/_73678623_pistorius_door_624in.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ASXTXHoOs48/Uah89M8HYYI/AAAAAAAAD8o/YGhF6LQPc_Y/s400/24-hour-usage-only-1923561.jpg

The trajectory of the bullets was from right to left because Oscar was standing to the right in a semi protected position, why did he not cross over in front of the door in order to shoot more bullets into the toilet? My best guess would be to stay out of the line of fire of the perceived intruder. In fact I think he testified to that while in the box.

 

[Apollo]

Hi Sorrell - BBM - can you remember if Nel asked OP why he didn't fire in the direction of the handle? I did watch the testimony that day, but I can't remember if it was addressed or not. I guess if it was addressed, the response may have been any of the following:

1. I didn't have time to think
2. I was terrified and in fear for my life
3. I'm confused by the question
4. I was terrified and in fear for my life
5. I didn't say that
6. I was terrified and in fear for my life

You forgot #7------I didn't shoot the gun, it just went off.

 

[soozieqtips]

You forgot #7------I didn't shoot the gun, it just went off.

:floorlaugh:

 

[fox1lady]

I don't know.

He braced himself, but he was on his stumps, thus the wild bullet trajectories, if he was on his prosthetics I imagine that the grouping would have been very tight.

I don't think there is any doubt that those shots were not random. He must have been aiming for the sounds of where the person was. It definitely looks as though he paused between first and second shots.

 

[Viper]

How do you figure that? The bullet holes are mostly in the right side of the door, the only reason they didn't hit the right side of the toilet room is because OP wasn't aiming in that direction, he was aiming towards RS, or the toilet itself if you'd rather believe that... don't forget the shower was on the right and the door was pretty much flush with that wall. Ohhh that must be it, OP was so worried he'd accidentally hit the shower door and be hit with his own bullet that he had to aim to the left side of the toilet room.:facepalm:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73678000/jpg/_73678623_pistorius_door_624in.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ASXTXHoOs48/Uah89M8HYYI/AAAAAAAAD8o/YGhF6LQPc_Y/s400/24-hour-usage-only-1923561.jpg

1) Bullet hole A was fired while Reeva was still standing and before Reeva started screaming bloody murder.

2) Bullet hole B was fired when Reeva's screams were falling, her body and the sound of her screams were moving. That bullet missed.

3) But Val, bullet holes C and D are so close together. Those are the two bullets that hit Reeva in her arm and in her head. Groupings do not get much closer than that.

 

[Carmelita]

I don't think there is any doubt that those shots were not random. He must have been aiming for the sounds of where the person was. It definitely looks as though he paused between first and second shots.

Well I would qualify as a doubter as to the shots being deliberately aimed they appear to me to be generally if not randomly shot into a very small room.

 

[fox1lady]

Or he heard a noise that he perceived as an aggressive intruder and he shot at the noise.

When all is said and done, the only aggressive person that night was Oscar Pistorius. He shouldn't have been allowed to carry firearms, they should do psychological tests on people before giving them licenses. The guy is clearly crazy and obsessed to the point of going shooting on a range in the middle of the night when he can't sleep!!!

I'm sorry but people like that need to be kept off the streets especially those that claim that....
"I wasn't aiming...",
"I didn't pull the trigger.."
"it wasn't my fault.."
those people that take absolutely no responsibility for causing death and danger to innocent people.