Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[james83]

If someone has a likely deadly injury in my home in the wee hours, I'm not sure that I would call 911 except from the car. I know that if one of my kids was hurt badly I absolutely would not wait for an ambulance, for example. I'd take them to the hospital myself. I might call a neighbor, too. I might not. Idk if his motives for calling the neighbor first were pure, but I wouldn't say it's completely unfathomable if your goal is to get the injured person to the hospital asap rather than wait. You'd want someone to help you, including in the car. Idk how long it takes to get an ambulance in SA or how far the hospital was from his house, though.

jmo

Want someone to help you, would your live in gardener do?.

 

[james83]

No.

Do I think it would be a reasonable assumption that firing 4 bullets into a small toilet would very likely kill someone, yes.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[wb180]

haha...please don't concern yourself with my loved ones. I guaranty I will get my kid to the ER faster than the ambulance would arrive. Probably by a good ten minutes. Depends on where one lives, I suppose, but I'm not wasting 15 minutes calling 911 and waiting for the EMT's if I have a choice and can manage to drive myself.

Common sense would tell you that if the waiting time for an ambulance is longer than it would take you to get to the ER yourself, don't waste the time. Seems pretty simple to me

Haha it's not about getting to hospital faster. It's about what is administered during the first minutes of a critical injury to that person.

But doesn't matter. Your choice if you want to be the emergency doctor and driver etc.

Anyways, back to OP, sure don't call ambulance. Call your mate in the middle of the night and wake him up and ask him to come over so that he can drive her who has been shot so he can then drive to the hospital. There isn't even a bed in a typical car haha.

Yep I can see the above is the most sensible decision...not. Haha

 

[Karmady]

Want someone to help you, would your live in gardener do?.

I don't know enough about that person or where he was or what he did that night to say. You would think if the truth of that situation were so damning, Nel would have asked about it. Maybe he did and I missed it, though.

 

[wb180]

I don't know enough about that person or where he was or what he did that night to say. You would think if the truth of that situation were so damning, Nel would have asked about it. Maybe he did and I missed it, though.

Doesn't seem like Nel was interested at the events after OP shot her.

 

[katydid23]

I did say you'd want help and that's what the help would be for. Driving or first aid, if needed. Sure, there are circumstances where it would make more sense to wait. But a gunshot to the head doesn't seem to be one of them if you've got help handy.

Just for example, when my son was little he had very bad asthma. He'd start sucking air and turning blue lipped very quickly. I drove him to the ER in the middle of the night several times. No problems. I never would have waited for an ambulance with my baby turning blue and not being able to breath.

jmo

I understand exactly what you are saying. When a loved one is in dire straights,
nothing can keep you from getting them urgent care. You probably had your sweet baby in the car w/in a minute or two.

Supposedly, according to the DT, Reeva was shot about 3 am. What time was the first, unsuccessful call for help ? about 20 minutes later?

And then how long until he actually began taking her to the waiting car? 26 minutes later?

Franks was apparently asleep downstairs. Why didnt OP grab him and get Reeva to the hospital sooner than that 26 minute gap?

 

[Suthrnqt]

Keep eating popcorn and make sure you keep it out of your ears!

I didn't say anything about Mangena, unknown "commentator," etc.

Did Wolmarans, who even Judge Masipa could not understand, say that was a tight group? I didn't hear that! Here is a picture of tight group to view for your popcorn-eating enjoyment.

In case you missed my point, I was commenting on what Hood said only. And yes, if he said that he is wrong!!

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-c...3-FWB-300S-target-air-rifle-BKL-RS-target.jpg

You are too funny! Calm down there, sparky!! I hope no one ever dares say the word popcorn around you when you have a weapon in your hand, kwim??
:floorlaugh:

 

[Karmady]

Haha it's not about getting to hospital faster. It's about what is administered during the first minutes of a critical injury to that person.

But doesn't matter. Your choice if you want to be the emergency doctor and driver etc.

Anyways, back to OP, sure don't call ambulance. Call your mate in the middle of the night and wake him up and ask him to come over so that he can drive her who has been shot so he can then drive to the hospital. There isn't even a bed in a typical car haha.

Yep I can see the above is the most sensible decision...not. Haha

bbm

Agree...haha lol

 

[Karmady]

I understand exactly what you are saying. When a loved one is in dire straights,
nothing can keep you from getting them urgent care. You probably had your sweet baby in the car w/in a minute or two.

Supposedly, according to the DT, Reeva was shot about 3 am. What time was the first, unsuccessful call for help ? about 20 minutes later?

And then how long until he actually began taking her to the waiting car? 26 minutes later?

Franks was apparently asleep downstairs. Why didnt OP grab him and get Reeva to the hospital sooner than that 26 minute gap?

I thought the State's case is that the shots were last and it was undisputed that the second sounds (the shots) happened at 3:16'ish based on the timing of one of the phone calls to security and maybe some other stuff. In that case, assuming your right about the 20 minutes (not doubting you -- just don't know myself) there would have been 4 minutes between the shots and the phone calls. Am I wrong about that?

As I mentioned to someone else, idk about Frank. Not enough information, imo
Thanks for understanding what I mean about my son.

 

[Karmady]

Doesn't seem like Nel was interested at the events after OP shot her.

That was kind of the point. If the man charged with putting him behind bars doesn't think it's important, I'm going to assume he knows more than I do about the situation and has made that decision for a reason. jmo

 

[Karmady]

Night peeps. Happy Mother's Day to the moms in the thread.

 

[DILLIGAF]

BBM - Yes. You'd think with that incredible upper body strength, he'd have been able to lift Reeva by himself, and not need to call Johan Stander for 'help' in lifting her. Strangely enough, OP did manage to lift her all by himself, because the Standers saw him carrying her when they turned up. But then not so strangely, OP had no recollection about lifting or carrying Reeva (who he needed 'help' with lifting moments earlier) down to the second landing. In my opinion, he didn't need any help lifting her at all, and like you said - he has incredible upper body strength, so he must have called Stander for a different reason IMO. A reason he'll keep to himself, like so many other things.

On top of that, why phone Stander for help lifting Reeva when Frank is downstairs in his room off the kitchen?
IMHO he called Stander for a different reason, one we can only speculate about.

 

[james83]

I understand exactly what you are saying. When a loved one is in dire straights,
nothing can keep you from getting them urgent care. You probably had your sweet baby in the car w/in a minute or two.

Supposedly, according to the DT, Reeva was shot about 3 am. What time was the first, unsuccessful call for help ? about 20 minutes later?

And then how long until he actually began taking her to the waiting car? 26 minutes later?

Franks was apparently asleep downstairs. Why didnt OP grab him and get Reeva to the hospital sooner than that 26 minute gap?

IMO Reason is he wanted someone else to take her to hospital while he stayed at home, otherwise he would have simply picked her up put her in his car and drove. He rang Stander simply because he wanted him to drive Reeva to the hospital, Stander was probably taken a back and reluctant and told Oscar to call an ambulance, hence the netcare call. JMO.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Night peeps. Happy Mother's Day to the moms in the thread.

Thanks Karmady!!
I also hope all the moms here have a wonderful Mother's Day!!
:rose:
I am gonna hug my 3 daughters extra long and tight. :loveyou:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Big hi back to you Fuskier. Yep I too have sucked into the strange vortex of this trial though I don't post much as everything is well covered by so many clever posters here. It's certainly passing time for me while we await the Gerard Baden Clay Brisbane trial next month. For those not familiar with this case he is another man charged with murder of his partner, though in that case his wife and mother of 3 young girls. He claims she was watching the footy show on tv when he went to bed. Her badly decomposed body was found 10 days later stuck in mud under a bridge 14 Kms from the family home, her car and purse at home. He had a mistress plus several girlfriends and his wife had lots of life insurances. Oh and he was in big financial trouble and had been begging people for substantial loans.

Sounds an though it will not be along drawn out argument. I am hoping the Dewani case will be televised. I think the case is not as clear cut as was initially thought.

 

[44ALLAN]

There were no shots to the right or right back corner. I found that very interesting. It was almost as if he was anticipating her movements as they were struck by the bullets. JMV

ETA: Or shooting in the direction of her voice.

Morelike he could see her..........................

 

[james83]

That was kind of the point. If the man charged with putting him behind bars doesn't think it's important, I'm going to assume he knows more than I do about the situation and has made that decision for a reason. jmo

Frank simply claim's to have heard nothing despite being out front talking to security when the Stander's arrived at Oscar's, surely you see how that can be seen as at least slightly suspicous?.

 

[Marfa Lights]

The trajectory of the bullets was from right to left because Oscar was standing to the right in a semi protected position, why did he not cross over in front of the door in order to shoot more bullets into the toilet? My best guess would be to stay out of the line of fire of the perceived intruder. In fact I think he testified to that while in the box.

And IIRC, he also stated he did not fire warning shots in the bathroom because he was concerned about possible ricochet. Either way-- whether he was trying to protect himself from a potentially armed intruder hiding in the toilet or just wanted to protect himself from possible ricochet as he opened fire at at an unarmed Reeva, he consciously sought to fire from a secure position-- a very considered and deliberate action when he has repeatedly claimed he charged toward the perceived intruder and fired without thinking.

 

[BritsKate]

I am not versed in SA law its nuances or the judges leeway in coming to a decision. I have read quite a bit of the legal definitions and analysis's of CH and PM. I know it is said that "disability" has not been part of the equation of a judgement as of yet in SA, it has also been stated that extreme situations may play a role in a judges decision.



So it is a bit ambiguous.

Murder is anything but ambiguous. If he shot at an intruder, intending to cause that intruder's death, it's murder. If he shot, not intending to kill anyone, but could have foreseen his actions could have resulted in someone's death, it's still murder.

The options on the table are not premeditated murder OR culpable homocide. SA doesn't recognise a separate and specific charge for premeditated murder. Instead, premeditation is used as an aggravating factor. So, it will simply be determined if the intent was there to kill Reeva, an intruder, or he should have foreseen the consequences of his actions.

If the court finds he intended to kill Reeva, murder is a done deal. Intending to kill an intruder - done deal too unless the panel believes his defence. And the last, proving intent by using dolus eventualis, will be considered only if they believe his defence. Then the reasonable person test will be used to determine intent.

Culpable homicide will not even be contemplated until the issue of murder is resolved.

His disability, IF it is considered, would not be (until sentencing) if they believe Oscar intentionally killed Reeva or an intruder.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Jake18]

A quick question for those who know about guns - does the term "grouping" refer to a specific type of bullet hole pattern? Bullseye targets keep being shown which are not really relevant to OP shooting Reeva. Mangena's lasers mean I don't think OP was randomly shooting through the door but if holes B,C and D aren't a "grouping" then what are they? A non random cluster?

I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious (and a bit confused).