Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[JudgeJudi]

haha...please don't concern yourself with my loved ones. I guaranty I will get my kid to the ER faster than the ambulance would arrive. Probably by a good ten minutes. Depends on where one lives, I suppose, but I'm not wasting 15 minutes calling 911 and waiting for the EMT's if I have a choice and can manage to drive myself.

Common sense would tell you that if the waiting time for an ambulance is longer than it would take you to get to the ER yourself, don't waste the time. Seems pretty simple to me

Head wounds are very special. My brother was involved in a hit-run accident and a medico was the first to arrive on the scene. He sustained serious brain damage and multiple other very serious injuries and was in a coma for more than a week. He was not expected to live. He had a team of doctors working on him that evening and it went on for hours and hours. My parents were subsequently told that the only reason he ultimately survived was because the medico at the scene prevented anyone from moving him.

 

[PPKik]

Sorry, but no that is not the consensus. Or at least I am not included in that consensus. OP fired the first bullet at center mass, which would include Reeva's stomach, but he missed and instead hit her in the hip. I don't believe that he could see her through a crack in the door. There was a pause as he acquired his aim and then he fired the following three bullets targeted at her voice, her mouth, her head.

BTW. When OP was asked about where he would have fired if he had wanted to hit the intruder behind the door OP said he would have fired to the extreme right of the door near the door frame, above the handle.

BBM

For me, it's hard to imagine that he target those specific body parts behind a closed door, whether Reeva was screaming, crying, silent, or talking to OP.

No one, including people who I see as not very reliable "ear witnesses" has said those four bangs were far apart enough for OP to take that kind of aim. Further, there is still confusion and disagreement on the bangshots and which were even which, bangs or shots!


Interesting, your BTW. I did not know he said that he said he would have fired at the handle on the extreme right. Incredible.

 

[toevlugsoord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b323ChGwGc
Go to 9:38 in this discussion.

They answer why Nel doesn't ask about the toilet not flushing, etc. etc. and other details we've thought of but aren't being addressed.

 

[katydid23]

haha...please don't concern yourself with my loved ones. I guaranty I will get my kid to the ER faster than the ambulance would arrive. Probably by a good ten minutes. Depends on where one lives, I suppose, but I'm not wasting 15 minutes calling 911 and waiting for the EMT's if I have a choice and can manage to drive myself.

Common sense would tell you that if the waiting time for an ambulance is longer than it would take you to get to the ER yourself, don't waste the time. Seems pretty simple to me

My son is an EMT and he says the opposite. Once an ambulance arrives at your door, they IMMEDIATELY do lifesaving and limb saving techniques, with proper equipment and meds and oxygen. ALWAYS wait for the ambulance, unless you are really in the middle of nowhere. In that case, call it in and meet them halfway.

If you drive to the hospital, you still have quite awhile before things are up and running for the patient. Not to mention the potential damage done by the car ride. An ambulance is like a traveling hospital. Much less stressful than throwing a bleeding or convulsing patient into the backseat.

Also, the waiting time for an ambulance is not going to be longer than your trip there. They have sirens and can go through red lights. It will be shorter.

 

[Karmady]

Head wounds are very special. My brother was involved in a hit-run accident and a medico was the first to arrive on the scene. He sustained serious brain damage and multiple other very serious injuries and was in a coma for more than a week. He was not expected to live. He had a team of doctors working on him that evening and it went on for hours and hours. My parents were subsequently told that the only reason he ultimately survived was because the medico at the scene prevented anyone from moving him.

Not to be callous toward our brother's situation -I'm glad he's fine, of course. But if he'd bled to death, for example, while the medic was waiting for transport, not moving him wouldn't have mattered at all. Everything is very situation specific. Including how bad the injuries are and how far away help is - both in time and distance.

jmo

 

[Laf]

I did say you'd want help and that's what the help would be for. Driving or first aid, if needed. Sure, there are circumstances where it would make more sense to wait. But a gunshot to the head doesn't seem to be one of them if you've got help handy.

Just for example, when my son was little he had very bad asthma. He'd start sucking air and turning blue lipped very quickly. I drove him to the ER in the middle of the night several times. No problems. I never would have waited for an ambulance with my baby turning blue and not being able to breath.

jmo

You were very lucky to make it to the hospital. An ambulance would have appropriate treatments on board which could be administered intravenously or an emergency tracheotomy if needed.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I was trying to say that the definition that you gave was that of murder, not pre-meditated murder but the lesser charge of murder. If he heard the sound and shot at a perceived aggressive intruder, then it is considered murder as it was behind a locked door with 4 shots. As his defence is putative defense, it could be argued that he was the attacker by going towards the danger when he could quite easily have gone away from the perceived danger. jmo

This has changed.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...lilty-with-two-stories-1.1676031#.U28TAixZrBw

 

[sicknote]

Well I would qualify as a doubter as to the shots being deliberately aimed they appear to me to be generally if not randomly shot into a very small room.

In the pitch black, in combat mode, on stumps and without aiming he would have hit an apple with shots C an D at door distance. I guess he just got lucky.

 

[Karmady]

My son is an EMT and he says the opposite. Once an ambulance arrives at your door, they IMMEDIATELY do lifesaving and limb saving techniques, with proper equipment and meds and oxygen. ALWAYS wait for the ambulance, unless you are really in the middle of nowhere. In that case, call it in and meet them halfway.

If you drive to the hospital, you still have quite awhile before things are up and running for the patient. Not to mention the potential damage done by the car ride. An ambulance is like a traveling hospital. Much less stressful than throwing a bleeding or convulsing patient into the backseat.

Also, the waiting time for an ambulance is not going to be longer than your trip there. They have sirens and can go through red lights. It will be shorter.

I can make it to the ER in 10 minutes. I might or might not have an ambulance in that amount of time. It's just that simple for me in most cases. We can all agree to disagree.

 

[PPKik]

So the experts in this case, Wolmarans and Mangena, witnesses, and Hood, commentator, Do Not know what they are talking about, but you Do?
Imagine that!!
opcorn

Keep eating popcorn and make sure you keep it out of your ears!

I didn't say anything about Mangena, unknown "commentator," etc.

Did Wolmarans, who even Judge Masipa could not understand, say that was a tight group? I didn't hear that! Here is a picture of tight group to view for your popcorn-eating enjoyment.

In case you missed my point, I was commenting on what Hood said only. And yes, if he said that he is wrong!!

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-c...3-FWB-300S-target-air-rifle-BKL-RS-target.jpg

 

[Karmady]

You were very lucky to make it to the hospital. An ambulance would have appropriate treatments on board which could be administered intravenously or an emergency tracheotomy if needed.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree on this. I made it "luckily" to the hospital several times with him.

 

[sicknote]

If someone has a likely deadly injury in my home in the wee hours, I'm not sure that I would call 911 except from the car. I know that if one of my kids was hurt badly I absolutely would not wait for an ambulance, for example. I'd take them to the hospital myself. I might call a neighbor, too. I might not. Idk if his motives for calling the neighbor first were pure, but I wouldn't say it's completely unfathomable if your goal is to get the injured person to the hospital asap rather than wait. You'd want someone to help you, including in the car. Idk how long it takes to get an ambulance in SA or how far the hospital was from his house, though.

jmo

Yeah, but Oscar did wait. He decided to sit with her for five minutes.

 

[PPKik]

I suggest he was shooting for maximum coverage, at least until he shifted to the right after missing the second shot and caught a glimpse of where RS was on the magazine rack.

Yes, that was exactly my point about shooting for maximum coverage.
I don't even know where this tight group nonsense even came from.

I wonder if OP could have seen Reeva. I'm not convinced that there was an opening big enough, even if was was aiming for her, and remember the toilet had no light. Even if the bathroom light was on, the toilet cubicle was dark.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.biznews.com/health-bizne...pistorius-performance-may-prove-mental-state/

As for all those tears and ramblings from Pistorius about his God of refuge, who helped him win, and get through the last year, Johannesburg forensic psychologist Leonard Carr pointed out in a Jacaranda FM interview last month, it was all about what God can do for Pistorius, not any sense of apology or responsibility towards God.[Unquote]

... and there, by inference, is Leonard Carr's opinion.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.biznews.com/health-bizne...pistorius-performance-may-prove-mental-state/

" ... Pretoria clinical and forensic psychologist, Ivan de Klerk ... agrees he (OP) demonstrates... an overweening desire for attention, and a lack of remorse". "If he thought (he was demonstrating remorse in Court) then Pistorius failed miserably", De Klerk says. He missed the remorseful boat completely...after February 14, 2013 he should have shown remorse... Instead, Pistorius’s first legal action was to fight the bail application, demand his passport, the right to travel, train, race again if he felt like it. In other words, be free and not take responsibility for what he did – hardly the actions of remorse, says De Klerk."...

So far, De Klerk hasn’t seen anything to suggest Pistorius is really remorseful: “People cry and say they’re sorry not necessarily because they’re remorseful, but because they got caught.”

 

[jassy writer]

Here's something to warm the hearts of all those who are traumatised by OP's ongoing suffering and the hideous mental anguish that has plagued him ever since that pesky magazine rack moving forced him to pump four bullets into Reeva in order to protect her... thankfully he was able to rise above his terrible grief for just a few moments in order to pose for this shot...

(photo appeared on somebody's Facebook and was shared by Justice for Reeva)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...04388071.95931.423567214388520&type=1&theater

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.biznews.com/health-biznews-com/2014/04/oscar-pistorius-reason-not-guilty-murder/

"... what Pistorius was doing with bullets South African soldiers and police aren’t allowed?. His gun “required” them, he said.

"Witnesses, including Johannesburg firearm trainer Sean Rens, have testified to Pistorius’s “great love”, and “enthusiasm” for guns, and an arsenal on order: three shotguns, two revolvers, a semi-automatic assault rifle, another self-loading rifle and nearly 600 ammunition rounds".

"A gun can have “dark presence”, writes New Yorker journalist Alec Wilkinson, and be about “possession of a tool that makes a person feel powerful nearly to the point of exaltation”. He’s not saying everyone with an “inordinate” passion for guns is unstable, just that a gun can be “the most powerful device there is to accessorise the ego”.

 

[MsMarple]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b323ChGwGc
Go to 9:38 in this discussion.

They answer why Nel doesn't ask about the toilet not flushing, etc. etc. and other details we've thought of but aren't being addressed.

toevlugsoord, thank you for that. I too wondered about the toilet flushing, among other things not addressed by Nel. The clip keeps it all in perspective. As much as I'd like to have answers I'll defer to Nel's strategy.

But.... as a nosey parker I really, really would like to know some stuff. Like whether or not OP had any wood splinters embedded in his arm and chest or stuck in his hair from reaching for the key, or if the liquid in the toilet contained urine. Or if Reeva was stationary or in motion at the time of the shooting. Yeah, mostly irrelevant or unanswerable but I sure wish I had access to their information....

Anyway, thanks again.

P.S. I thought since you're from the Seattle area that “toevlugsoord” was a Scandinavian word meaning something like lutefisk (ewwww) but I see it's Afrikaans for asylum or sanctuary. Very cool.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.biznews.com/health-bizne...pistorius-performance-may-prove-mental-state/

In a radio interview with Jacaranda FM last month, Johannesburg forensic psychologist Leonard Carr... calls Pistorius a vain man, driven by image, living a life “centred around performance”, someone who clearly has anger and impulse control issues.

Carr finds it “very strange” that Pistorius employed a PR team from England (since dispatched) immediately after the shooting, quickly returned to training, has been flirting, is in a new relationship with a 19-year-old, yet presents himself in court as “this vulnerable bloke suffering from chronic post-traumatic stress despite being on a cocktail of medication”...

 

[DILLIGAF]

Does anybody have a sense of whether the defense 'scream' evidence is still coming? I think they've succeeded in leaving it an open question with the recent neighbour testimony, but if the issue is left at that I think they step into a hole I don't currently perceive them to be in.

I think they would like to introduce 'scream' evidence but I doubt they will.

The prosecutions' ear witnesses are convinced it was a woman screaming and would not be moved from that conviction in cross examination. OP said he couldn't replicate his screams because he said he'd never screamed like that before.
On top of that, I think Nel would have a field day with any DT witness that tries to claim Oscar screams like a woman. If they did recordings of Oscar screaming then Nel will pick those sound tests to pieces imho.

The DT may try to do so in desperation, but it could do more harm than good if the evidence isn't convincing.