Trial Discussion Thread #4 - 14.03.10, Day 6

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Some interesting reading:

In the final analysis, though, the evidence Saayman presented is almost sure to be widely misunderstood. It may have been less misunderstood had it been reported directly, and it may have been less misunderstood had those most intensely interested in the trial been allowed to see him deliver it. Yet by its very nature, the kind of testimony he provided is packed with caveats and uncertainty, of the kind that easily falls by the wayside, and also needs to be broadly interpreted within a trial rather than in isolation.

For instance, Saayman said Reeva Steenkamp probably last ate less than two hours before she died. That is of enormous importance considering that Pistorius claims the couple were already asleep by that time. Or perhaps not.

What Saayman actually said was complex. Asked what the state of Steenkamp's stomach indicated in terms of time of death, he first delivered what amounted to a mini lecture about the imprecision of any measure he could provide. He noted that this problem had been closely studied because it is both important in investigating murders and particularly fraught with difficulty. He described the imprecision of the science involved. He cited the possibility of very large meals, or very small meals, affecting the time taken to digest food. He cautioned that different types of food are digested at different speeds, that different people digest food at different speeds, and that the same person could digest food at different rates from one day to the next.

That done, and with the weight of his considerable expertise behind it, he finally allowed that Steenkamp, by his best estimate, died within two hours of last eating anything.

How will the court interpret that? If history is any guide, it will not take Saayman's evidence as either bolstering or undermining Pistorius's version of events in itself. Instead it will consider the information for what it is: another piece in a complex puzzle to be considered alongside all the other pieces in trying to determine a sequence of events.
Read more
http://mg.co.za/article/2014-03-10-pistorius-trial-the-trouble-with-expert-witnesses
 
I've thought for a long time that Pistorius broke that panel in the toilet door and then shot her. If he was just blindly firing, it's a bit weird that he shot her in the head, what are the chances of that, given he supposedly couldn't see her?

In fact, if it had been an intruder and said intruder stood directly opposite the toilet and against the wall that also forms the wall to the shower room, what are the chances that the supposed "intruder" would have been shot at all?

I'm wondering if "surprise" information is looming.

Yes. Marksman accuracy in pitch dark!
 
Since OP said that RS was still alive/breathing when he broke down the door - this makes me think she was and he is recalling a real moment - just before he shot her! As she was alive until the fatal gun wound or excessive bleeding. If so - he did this out of extreme anger and wanted to cause bodily harm and pain? Roid rage? What lead to a full hour long argument then possibly escalated to murder? Was it a text? Email? Sexual related? Maybe they fought because he was watching *advertiser censored*? Since she was a woman's advocate that would set her off!! Wasn't she going to be giving an anti rape pro woman speech the next day? Did they physically fight- he hit her with bat? Then she ran into bathroom and he thought he had to prevent her from telling world he was beater? Sexual deviant? Jealousy?

I'm still not clear about whether he used the bat to cause head trauma or to whack the door? What about the head wound and that left arm disfiguration? Was she left or right handed? And was she sitting on toilet and hit on right side or standing facing bathroom door or had she fallen to floor prior to last round? Also why was key in bathroom- did RS grab it to prevent him from opening door?
 
I'd also like to say that there are areas in that toilet where an intruder could have stood safely, impervious to direct shots through the door; for example, an intruder could have stood by the side of the toilet.

The shots fired had the desired effect, though, which was to kill a person.
 
On the *advertiser censored*-viewing thing, I've been wondering whether perhaps the herbal remedy hadn't done the trick vis a vis facilitating Valentinian activities. Possibly he was stealing the occasional furtive look at some of his favourite filth in an attempt to get things off the ground, while RS was busying herself otherwise - yoga, TV, texting, whatever. She catches him and goads him about it; not to be deliberately provocative necessarily, but perhaps just because she's disgusted that he should resort to that kind of material when he's got her right there in the room with him, and it comes out as taunting. I can see that that would go down quite poorly with a chap like OP.
 
if there was uncertainty after today, after Roux' cross, we can be certain that there will be far more uncertainty.

There would be uncertainty enough if everything was broadcast live.

Now we have Peter, Paul and Mary putting what they heard into their own words and tweeting them, blogging them, etc. Who knows what bias they may have.
 
Ah Kitty, bathroom was never claimed to be dark, bedroom was.

But more importantly did you get a chance to view that youtube on Phil S.

1. What light did OP say there was in the bathroom? He didn't even mention moonlight that I remember.

2. No. I really liked Al Pacino's Phil S. better than Phil's Phil S.!
 
In his summary after the pathologist's testimony, one court reporter said the pathologist stated superficial wounds were sustained under her right breast and right forearm, probably caused by door fragments. I believe they were prohibited from directly quoting testimony, so can't be sure of nuances here, but this could be an interesting finding depending on how her body came to rest after she was shot. For instance, if she was slumped over, would she sustain a splinter injury under her breast? Or did the splinter injury occur before shots were fired? Also, would the superficial wounds appear different depending on whether Reeva was alive or very recently deceased when the wounds occurred? If she was only able to take a couple breaths after being shot, would she not have been deceased prior to the door being batted down? Just thinking aloud.

ETA: Another reporter mentioned superficial abrasions to left groin area, likely from splinters according to pathologist.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

Bessie - Just saw your request for links. Sorry about that. Here are the accompanying links:

http://twitter.com/barrybateman/status/443021373662056449

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...ines-cold-details-of-Reevas-injuries-20140310
 
How would she get splinters under her breast if wearing a shirt and bra?
 
Well I got done wth this aspect a year ago. I'll just say, homeopathy (like this one remedy Testis Compistum) is very big in UK ("Royal" family too) Germany, India, and many other countries. Was big in USA along with herbs until petrochemicals in early 1900s.
Played no role in OP's actions--both sides agreed. And I will say no more on this.

I absolutely agree it played no role. I was answering a question as to whether he tooks steroids and could it be roid rage. IMO homeopathy works because those who use it expect it to work. There was a big study done on this, here in the UK recently, using athletes and those who in fact took a placebo improved their times. If I can find it I will post a link.
 
1. What light did OP say there was in the bathroom? He didn't even mention moonlight that I remember.

2. No. I really liked Al Pacino's Phil S. better than Phil's Phil S.!

OP was not explicit on the source of the light, only way it happened was either light is always on in bathroom, OP put it on after going there, or Reeva had put it on when she went into the loo.

Point is OP says, in his BH affi, that he can see someone is in the loo and the window is open.

LOL about Pacino. Obviously the big production movie was more fun. I merely pointed out, it had little intersection with the truth.
Private riddle for you; what town did Al Pacino's parents come from?
Ans: Corleone, Sicily. {NO joke]
 
I absolutely agree it played no role. I was answering a question as to whether he tooks steroids and could it be roid rage. IMP homeopathy works because those who use it expect it to work. There was a big study done on this, here in the UK recently, using athletes and those who in fact took a placebo improved their times. If I can find it I will post a link.

Maybe we can drop this please. Truth is there have been countless studies that many drugs, even some surgeries were proven to be no better than placebo or worked merely because the dr told the pt so.. And there have been numerous double-blind studies verifying homeopathy. Plus it is usually harmless if it doesn't work.
 
:silenced:
I absolutely agree it played no role. I was answering a question as to whether he tooks steroids and could it be roid rage. IMO homeopathy works because those who use it expect it to work. There was a study done on this, here in the UK recently, using athletes and those who in fact took a placebo improved their times. If I can find it I will post a link.

Sorry OT but relevant to how the type of remedy OP took works.

http://www.aber.ac.uk/en/news/archive/2014/02/title-146509-en.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18607223

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/C...r_Athletes___Do_They_Exist__If_Not,_Do.3.aspx

The subject will now be dropped to please Shane :silenced:
 
How would she get splinters under her breast if wearing a shirt and bra?

Splinters could have been ejected 2 ways.
From Bat strikes, or from the more powerful faster gunshots thru the door.
 
Where was it said he was watching violent *advertiser censored*??? I don't think I've seen that mentioned anywhere except here?
Oops. I read it here too and assumed it was fact. Glad I'm not a witness at the trial! Even so, watching *advertiser censored* on Valentine's Day while your g/friend is there is a very insular thing to do and I seriously doubt Reeva was watching it with him on a tiny phone screen. Of course, there's always the possibility that he was watching it while Reeva was engaged elsewhere, doing yoga or whatever. Do we have the times of his pornathon?
 
Shane, you need to change your WS ID to "Riddler." :) :crazy:

I will try to address #1: Besides rage, and/or in addition to rage, is fear. Fear that Reeva will expose something about him that he does not want exposed. Something so devastating that he loses his mind in panic and shoots her.

kitty, Can you please try again with #1, or maybe try #5 (too).

The rewards will be enormous for those who get it all.
 
I must check when I get home from work but does OP say they went to SLEEP or they went to BED at 10??
From the affidavit: "By about 22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine's Day but asked me only to open it the next day.

After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep."
 
On Monday, however, Roux said call records showed Pistorius called security first,
but could not speak because he was "indeed crying".


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/mar/10/oscar-pistorius-vomits-court-reeva-steenkamp-injuries

Does anyone know if Roux has produced these call records? They're crucial because if OP did in fact call security first, then it shows he tried to get help before being forced to do it. Roux has claimed he can prove many things, but I've yet to see him do it. Surely he wouldn't be so stupid as to pretend he has call records that show Baba is mistaken about the call sequence? Would he?
 
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