Trial Discussion Thread #44 - 14.07.1-2, Day 34-35

[4MrsB]

Peet van Zyl alleges that Oscar Pistorius performance in London had raised him to the level of an international sports icon and that his income from sponsors and product ambassadorships would multiply by a factor of 5 !!!

Let us examine the reality of Oscar's performance in 2012 :

London Paralympics 100 m : 4 th – 11.17 seconds . . . . .

Peet van Zyl alleges that Oscar's retirement from competition was planned for 2017… this means that Oscar Pistorius would compete at the Rio Paralympics in 2016 at age 30… he would be far past his prime… I suspect he would struggle to even qualify for the 100 m and 200 m events.

Oscar Pistorius was clearly past his prime, on a downhill slope and his carbon fiber running blades were no longer a unique and novel technology that provided him with an significant edge over other athletes… the blades were now common place and being used by all of the other athletes… athletes who were far younger and faster than Oscar Pistorius.

Sponsors are well known for substantially increasing their financial backing of athletes who are loosing the favorable lime-light and are rapidly fading out of relevance.

Respectfully snipped for space ...

I understand the points you've laid out, in a clear easy to follow narrative, and they make sense . . . however, I wanted to share my insights, speaking as a "typical" viewer from USA, watching the Olympics and not knowing a whole lot about many of the the competing athletes. My mind/attention being "shaped" a great deal by the station (NBC or ABC) broadcasting the event.

I had never heard of OP before the Olympics and I was not familiar with previously following any of the Paralympics. But the coverage given to Oscar and leading up to his events pulled me in hook, line & sinker. I was fascinated and instantly became a big fan, rooting him on. So disappointed when he didn't fare better in the Olympic event. I was not aware of all these other stories, only positive PR put out there. I didn't realize the other amazing accomplishments in the Paralympics from so many other sprinters without legs. It was Oscar being placed front & center to uninformed viewers like me. I wanted so badly for him to do well, was so impressed by his accomplishments and I was instantly drawn to his quiet and humble demeanor during interviews. So his PR team or Van Zyl or whoever, was doing something right and it sold me on OP.

This is why I was so shocked and torn when I read about the shooting of Reeva in Feb. 2013. This is why I wanted to believe his story (I can only imagine how most of the fans from his home country must have felt). Then after reading and hearing the facts roll out on what OP says took place that night & why he "accidentally" killed his girlfriend, that I knew I was sadly mistaken. This guy I had put on a pedestal (because its so great to see underdogs & people with handicaps and special challenges overcome and excel), was guilty, I felt, of murder and was lying about so many issues from that night.

I think there is a lot of truth in Van Zyl's statement that the buzz from the London Olympics shined the spotlight a great deal on both Usain Bolt & Oscar. To me, an average layperson in the Track & Field arena, the PR for OP was excellent and I would think he would have been offered a great deal more sponsors following the public's (world's) big intro to OP following London.

As I said...all your facts I am sure are quite correct and make sense & I very much enjoy reading them. . . but speaking as a average uneducated (sports wise) Olympic viewer, I walked away a big fan of OP's after being "introduced" via the Olympics & wanted to follow his future accomplishments, cheering him on. Therefore, I can see (thru eyes like mine) that he would have reaped some big financial rewards following the Olympics.

(FYI: just to be crystal clear...I do NOT have the same opinion any longer of this man) .

 

[Interested Bystander]

(Your Response Is To Pandax, Bystander)

I too thought the Acoustics detail was far better from our new Websleuther Pandax, than Mr Lin…. very easy to understand and a great deal more concise than the muddled up defence witness…..

However, I don't think Lin was a credible witness and the reason Nel went light on him was because the court will discount most of his forensic examination.

He did not:

Conduct his Acoustic testing in as near to the same atmospheric & weather conditions as Feb 14.

Have access to all premises of the witnesses, whilst conducting multi-level sound tests from OP's old house.

Make clear the impact of the now larger trees & new build properties on his tests

Gain independent confirmation of his 'Subjective Testing.

What he did do was:

Give his opinion wrapped up in an awful lot of technical bumf…..

That is why Nel did not need to challenge him too greatly, it is another too little too late witness for OP in my humble opinion.

My concern is not really so much with Nel (I think he is astute enough to deal with what Lin was saying) as with the Judge and whether she understands the technical aspects of the evidence and its relevance, or not, as the case may be. I got the feeling Nel had to dumb down his questioning so that the Judge and Assessors would understand. Sad to say, recently I have had a few misgivings about the Judge's comprehension of parts of the trial but I am hoping the assessors will get up to speed. I do hope I am proved wrong.

 

[4MrsB]

I didn't have time to follow trial except for WS, so I am now beyond surprised that the defense calls Pistorius manager Van Zyl as character witness.

Agents are talent-handlers whose job is to get deals and professionally lie (er, or, 'adjust' the truth for the most favourable light for their client) especially to the media.

They're paid to make money for their client and often shield information both from and too their client.

There is the opposite of an independent witness - the agent's career and livelihood obviously runs on the back of Pistorius' fate. Cripes what is the defense team doing?!

I agree...calling his manager seems like waste of the courtroom's time. This guy's income & career are directly tied to OP's exoneration (although Van Zyl is probably fully aware of this being a sinking Titanic situation & nothing, not even a "not guilty" outcome, could save this "ship").

However . . . I am hoping, since he's on the stand, Nel will push him for exactly what took place during the "financial meeting" the morning of Feb 13th, that Reeva was consoling OP about. (But if Nel doesn't already know the answer, he of course won't ask Van Zyl).

Hope Nel knows....and therefore asks!

Would love to hear what happened that morning that put OP into such a lousy mood after that meeting. Reeva having to cheer him up, saying it was sh%#y, and reminding him of what she was sure were "future financial blessings" lying ahead, down the road, for OP.

I have seriously thought this meeting and the mood it appeared to have put OP into, may have somewhat, in a small part, contributed to the events of that night. Poor little OP, lost a sponsor or important financial deal....whaa, whaa.

 

[AJ_DS]

Respectfully snipped for space ...

I understand the points you've laid out, in a clear easy to follow narrative, and they make sense . . . however, I wanted to share my insights, speaking as a "typical" viewer from USA, watching the Olympics and not knowing a whole lot about many of the the competing athletes. My mind/attention being "shaped" a great deal by the station (NBC or ABC) broadcasting the event.

I had never heard of OP before the Olympics and I was not familiar with previously following any of the Paralympics. But the coverage given to Oscar and leading up to his events pulled me in hook, line & sinker. I was fascinated and instantly became a big fan, rooting him on. So disappointed when he didn't fare better in the Olympic event. I was not aware of all these other stories, only positive PR put out there. I didn't realize the other amazing accomplishments in the Paralympics from so many other sprinters without legs. It was Oscar being placed front & center to uninformed viewers like me. I wanted so badly for him to do well, was so impressed by his accomplishments and I was instantly drawn to his quiet and humble demeanor during interviews. So his PR team or Van Zyl or whoever, was doing something right and it sold me on OP.

This is why I was so shocked and torn when I read about the shooting of Reeva in Feb. 2013. This is why I wanted to believe his story (I can only imagine how most of the fans from his home country must have felt). Then after reading and hearing the facts roll out on what OP says took place that night & why he "accidentally" killed his girlfriend, that I knew I was sadly mistaken. This guy I had put on a pedestal (because its so great to see underdogs & people with handicaps and special challenges overcome and excel), was guilty, I felt, of murder and was lying about so many issues from that night.

I think there is a lot of truth in Van Zyl's statement that the buzz from the London Olympics shined the spotlight a great deal on both Usain Bolt & Oscar. To me, an average layperson in the Track & Field arena, the PR for OP was excellent and I would think he would have been offered a great deal more sponsors following the public's (world's) big intro to OP following London.

As I said...all your facts I am sure are quite correct and make sense & I very much enjoy reading them. . . but speaking as a average uneducated (sports wise) Olympic viewer, I walked away a big fan of OP's after being "introduced" via the Olympics & wanted to follow his future accomplishments, cheering him on. Therefore, I can see (thru eyes like mine) that he would have reaped some big financial rewards following the Olympics.

(FYI: just to be crystal clear...I do NOT have the same opinion any longer of this man) .

BiB… totally get your meaning from an Olympic enthusiasts point of view… makes perfect sense.

However, from a sponsors perspective who must earmark sponsorship and ambassadorship dollars to a specific athlete it's a bit different.

1. Oscar's comments after the 200 m severely tainted his image… no brand would want to associate themselves with poor sportsmanship.

2. Sponsors look for long-term investments… betting on a rising star like Jonnie Peacock that has a long career in front of him is a far better bet than Oscar Pistorius who was basically at the end of his.

3. Oscar Pistorius was initially an attractive athlete because he introduced the carbon blades… it made for an interesting story… now they are common place and nobody notices them anymore.

4. Oscar was plagued by many undesirable things from a sponsors perspective : shoulder injury, arrests, complaints, abuse, etc… all these things make Oscar Pistorius a risky investment that may ultimately prove fruitless or worse detrimental to a brand.

 

[vansleuths]

I am assuming Van Zyl has been fired by OP and has an Axe to grind..

Why would you think OP would have fired him?

 

[4MrsB]

BiB… totally get your meaning from an Olympic enthusiasts point of view… makes perfect sense.

However, from a sponsors perspective who must earmark sponsorship and ambassadorship dollars to a specific athlete it's a bit different.

1. Oscar's comments after the 200 m severely tainted his image… no brand would want to associate themselves with poor sportsmanship.

2. Sponsors look for long-term investments… betting on a rising star like Jonnie Peacock that has a long career in front of him is a far better bet than Oscar Pistorius who was basically at the end of his.

3. Oscar Pistorius was initially an attractive athlete because he introduced the carbon blades… it made for an interesting story… now they are common place and nobody notices them anymore.

4. Oscar was plagued by many undesirable things from a sponsors perspective : shoulder injury, arrests, complaints, abuse, etc… all these things make Oscar Pistorius a risky investment that may ultimately prove fruitless or worse detrimental to a brand.

. . . makes total sense.

 

[DebinGA]

Random "sounds" thoughts ...

*OP testified in answer to Nel's question that he had participated in a screams test. That was in early April, so if Lin was added in May, then can we eliminate him as conducting that test? Who was the sounds expert who did that test, if there was one?

*Dixon testified in April to being the bat-banger in the gun v. bat sound tests, and iirc he described the sound guy as a music/record engineer. Who is that guy and why didn't he testify about the "bangs" instead of Dixon? Only possible reason I see is that Roux decided the guy who knew something about sounds would be more damaging than the geologist who knew nothing about sounds.

*Anyone imagine a scenario where a successful OP-screams-like-a-female test wouldn't have been introduced in evidence long before now?

 

[cottonweaver]

Would love to hear what happened that morning that put OP into such a lousy mood after that meeting. Reeva having to cheer him up, saying it was sh%#y, and reminding him of what she was sure were "future financial blessings" lying ahead, down the road, for OP.

I have seriously thought this meeting and the mood it appeared to have put OP into, may have somewhat, in a small part, contributed to the events of that night. Poor little OP, lost a sponsor or important financial deal....whaa, whaa.

Me too -wondered about that for ages. Second option is Cassidy-Memmory case as that hadn't been settled at this stage.

I have only just been able to get today's trial news this evening so apologies if this has all been already mentioned but here's my :twocents: for what it's worth.

A quick read of SA Times re-cap three things jumped out - use of character witness, plus complete bias of van Zyl. And if the invite abroad for RS is true, “ I need Reeva to see how tough my world is” then I can’t see how ANY poster can think that latter point is apt or normal. (New relationship. You want to show off to your girlfriend how amazing/exciting/fun ur world is, exotic locations, share the freebie- factor. Those would be the motivations surely!
Sure, as a brand manager he certainly understood the usefulness of Reeva accompanying OP on his well-publicised jaunts! (Side issue – of course RS was also media savvy- check her Twitter - and IF invite is true she would have weighed up it’s worth to her rather than maintaining/building her own separate brand identity. Ie . useful but could work against her – potentially becomes more known as a famous ex of OP.)

Obviously much of this PVZ testimony is biased and evasive. It’s obvious from his answers – he doesn’t know why the athlete had to change rooms in London, he wasn’t there. Never personally witnessed anything ungentlemanly, of course he would have heard about it. Even Marc Batchelor knew of that reputation in Feb 2013 and MB was no close assoc of OP. Tries to come across as a remote manager even though he turned up outside Op house after killing middle of night and was phoned to attend. He didn’t know anything about love of guns. (Yeah right – Merlo’s autobiog Dreamrunner publ 2008, and various journo interviews pre-date 2012.) almost all foreign sports journos picked up odd behaviours and reported as such – PVZ cant be saying he doesn’t read the press! PVZ* had more invested in keeping OP’s image clean more than anyone else. Might as well get Arnold up as next witness for all PVZ is worth! (* Need to find out which other athletes PVZ represented 2013 and who was worth the most. Future book deal contract gains too?)

After that I’ve read some great posts on WS. Of course PVZ is also trying to provide evidence that could be used as mitigation for sentencing too. DT knows which way this case is going. Sure the MH report has all kinds of other notes about his obsessive, inapt behavior and they want to use that later if it goes to C Homicide. Additionally, he may very well have PTSD type issues SINCE killing but that is irrelevant in sentencing.

Had a read through today’s WS posts: user Forensics posts Barry Bateman’s tweets – OP emotional whilst PVZ describes what OP has lost re global sports icon. Mmmm – says it all. Surprised he’s not asked for sick bucket as his career loss is so tragic.
Off to look for the laughing sequence now!

Finally i'm in part agreement with a few posters: post Olympics he was on the verge of a lucrative career shift, but it was really stressing him out.

 

[AJ_DS]

Respectfully snipped

Finally i'm in part agreement with a few posters: post Olympics he was on the verge of a lucrative career shift, but it was really stressing him out.

On what are you basing this ?

Also, the $h!tty news he had received on 13 February 2013 seems to have been financially related.

 

[vansleuths]

Yup .. that's what I'm wondering, too .. although I don't think it matters if that wasn't the case, what we are hearing now is just how controlling OP (and his team) were and just how controlled Reeva must've felt by it all .. remember, she wanted to go home that night because she wanted to be able to get to her appointment fresh and early in order to be able to give her speech, but no, OP had some *crisis* or another with which he was able to manipulate her into staying, because *everything* of his will always trump anything of hers, in Oscar world. I reckon that she just got totally fed up with it all and then later that night decided she'd had enough and was going to leave (the Valentine's card she had written earlier, together with the present, is proof of nothing .. clearly she did love him .. but she was clearly confused by the relationship too, and that confusion was being caused by the way she felt she was being controlled by him). There was deffo one hell of an argument that night .. how anyone can not see this is beyond me.

I'm not trying to defend OP but this isn't an ordinary murder case.

It deals with a sports icon, one that was used to making millions and having fame thrown upon him.

As an athlete, his tools of the profession was his body and it had to be in tip top shape in terms of diet and rest. We see all the time in sports where athletes are thrown off the team because they come to training out of shape or overweight.

As an athlete, he has limited time to make as much money as possible before he is forced to retire because he is to old to compete.

That's why there was a lot of talk about I and me and it would put a lot of strain on any relationship he had.

They always say that someone can only be judged by their peers and I think the only people that would understand the pressures placed on OP would be other athletes.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

Why would you think OP would have fired him?

I meant it as a joke…. OP fires him so he comes to give (not very good) testimony in court to get his own back….. Looks like I need to work on my routine a little …

 

[AJ_DS]

Random "sounds" thoughts ...

*OP testified in answer to Nel's question that he had participated in a screams test. That was in early April, so if Lin was added in May, then can we eliminate him as conducting that test? Who was the sounds expert who did that test, if there was one?

*Dixon testified in April to being the bat-banger in the gun v. bat sound tests, and iirc he described the sound guy as a music/record engineer. Who is that guy and why didn't he testify about the "bangs" instead of Dixon? Only possible reason I see is that Roux decided the guy who knew something about sounds would be more damaging than the geologist who knew nothing about sounds.

*Anyone imagine a scenario where a successful OP-screams-like-a-female test wouldn't have been introduced in evidence long before now?

I suspect the Defence had many such experts that were replaced during various adjournments for 'better' ones.

Dr. Vorster was surely not the first to interview OP… the putative private defence basically commands a psych evaluation…it's not mandatory but very helpful… Dr. Vorster was called upon and the very end.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Barry Bateman @barrybateman · 1m
#OscarTrial Van Zyl has laid bare the magnitude of what this “global sports icon” lost by shooting and killing Reeva. BB

Barry Bateman @barrybateman · 1m
#OscarTrial Oscar appears quite emotional. Aimee has held him on a long embrace while seated in the dock. BB

I still think the relationship between Aimee and Oscar is weird. Very weird. The "long embraces" thing creeps me out.

 

[HauntsForHope]

Today's Trial archive

Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAzWsQk9in4

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRbxfpDKbi0

Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ_hUzn5vaY

 

[jay-jay]

I'm not trying to defend OP but this isn't an ordinary murder case.

It deals with a sports icon, one that was used to making millions and having fame thrown upon him.

As an athlete, his tools of the profession was his body and it had to be in tip top shape in terms of diet and rest. We see all the time in sports where athletes are thrown off the team because they come to training out of shape or overweight.

As an athlete, he has limited time to make as much money as possible before he is forced to retire because he is to old to compete.

That's why there was a lot of talk about I and me and it would put a lot of strain on any relationship he had.

They always say that someone can only be judged by their peers and I think the only people that would understand the pressures placed on OP would be other athletes.

You really think it's right that someone would offer the opportunity of a trip to their girlfriend on the basis that they wanted them to see how tough their life as an athlete is? Sorry, but that's just not normal. The normal scenario would be because they wanted to be with that person, and to share the experience with them .. instead of which, the way this was actually put to Reeva, was to tell her the reasons why he always got so p*ssed off with her, so she was under orders from him to go along with him and then she would learn what his problems were. That's not how normal people go about things, that's how a control freak like OP goes about it. In addition to that, Reeva had her own career and her own commitments but from what we know of the relationship, she had to drop everything every time he wanted her to.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I saw that too. I'm feeling like this trial is losing momentum. Nel is carrying this whole show on his own. He's not even told who these witnesses are, he has to think on his feet, the court keeps adjourning.
:twocents: :tantrum:

It seems as if the Defense is "dragging witnesses in off the street"! Are they (Defense) not even required to provide the State with a list of who their witnesses will be? Not even the day before or even that very morning at the beginning of the court day?

 

[cottonweaver]

On what are you basing this ?

Also, the $h!tty news he had received on 13 February 2013 seems to have been financially related.

From 13 feb text message from reeva to Op:
13:10pm
RS: It’s a difficult thing to try to console you baba because it’s a ****** thing and you’re a nice guy. I guess these things happen and we can just hope they work out for the best. You are an amazing person with so many blessings and you are more than cared for. Your health and future monetary blessings far outweigh this hurdle I can promise you that 
OP: Thank you so much my angel you don’t have to. X Stay tonight if you would like.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-15-state-rests/


It's a hunch that the problem could be Cassidy-Memmory-related just because of the nature of the text. It's as if someone has done something "******" as he is a nice guy who doesn't deserve it . ie. it's personal rather than financial. (Sure on record he had gone for a business meeting - what if he had actually been to a couple of unrelated meetings that day- one at the Weber's firm?)
Second underlined phrase can be read two ways ;reassurance - don't worry about this personal ****** thing, you're healthy and loaded.
Or don't worry about this financial setback - think of long term financial deals being offered to you.
If I've not answered it, let me know- but it'll take a while to find the sports articles I was looking at a month ago re why I think he was becoming a Beckham commodity post Olympics.

 

[DebinGA]

It seems as if the Defense is "dragging witnesses in off the street"! Are they (Defense) not even required to provide the State with a list of who their witnesses will be? Not even the day before or even that very morning at the beginning of the court day?

Apparently in SA the prosecution not only doesn't know who the DT will call next but also has little idea what they'll say. Reports, if any, are given to the prosecutor as the witness is being sworn in.

 

[vansleuths]

Apparently in SA the prosecution not only doesn't know who the DT will call next but also has little idea what they'll say. Reports, if any, are given to the prosecutor as the witness is being sworn in.

How is that justice when you can't properly cross examine a witness because you haven't had time to prepare or consult.

 

[jilly]

Apparently in SA the prosecution not only doesn't know who the DT will call next but also has little idea what they'll say. Reports, if any, are given to the prosecutor as the witness is being sworn in.

Wow. Trial by ambush?