Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Greater Than]

This would be doubly difficult for him if he has a back-up plan to leave the country and not come back (Mozambique?).

He has apparently received offers to get him out of the country. :facepalm:

https://twitter.com/southafricato/status/488668603605336064

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I think his ego is big enough that he probably thinks he can represent himself. He seemed to relish when he could pick up Nel on little details and appeared to know every state witness' testimony word for word. Now that's a trial I'd love to see - OP asking himself questions but no buckets allowed.

With OP representing himself, the trial would have to have a 10 minute videotape delay to blur out his endless heaving, hurling and howling. LOL

That appeals trial could last for years.

 

[Greater Than]

And also without proving OP sounds like a woman or a cricket bat sounds like a gun!

Well, they did have Dixon submit the gunshot/cricket bat sound test evidence, but I'm pretty sure Masipa will reject it because Nel got him to concede:

1. He was unqualified to testify as an expert in sound (among other things).

2. The ammunition used for the test was not the same as OP's.

3. The gunshot test had to be repeated on a different day (that he was not present for) because the gun malfunctioned.

4. The background sound of insects (crickets) could be clearly heard during the bat strike recording, but were much softer during the gunshot recording....which suggests the bat portion had been manipulated to sound louder.

What a disaster for the DT considering the fact that the sounds the five ear witnesses heard, all of whom testified were gunshots, is so crucial in determining the sequence of the cricket bat versus the gunshots. Their "expert" was supposed to prove that the sound of gunshots and bat strikes can easily be confused, but he failed miserably.

And yes! Although the court was promised it, no evidence was provided to prove that OP screams like a woman. Very suspicious since Burger testified that she heard the scream test being conducted.

 

[Val1]

Well, they did have Dixon submit the gunshot/cricket bat sound test evidence, but I'm pretty sure Masipa will reject it because Nel got him to concede:

1. He was unqualified to testify as an expert in sound (among other things).

2. The ammunition used for the test was not the same as OP's.

3. The gunshot test had to be repeated on a different day (that he was not present for) because the gun malfunctioned.

4. The background sound of insects (crickets) could be clearly heard during the bat strike recording, but were much softer during the gunshot recording....which suggests the bat portion had been manipulated to sound louder.

What a disaster for the DT considering the fact that the sounds the five ear witnesses heard, all of whom testified were gunshots, is so crucial in determining the sequence of the cricket bat versus the gunshots. Their "expert" was supposed to prove that the sound of gunshots and bat strikes can easily be confused, but he failed miserably.

And yes! Although the court was promised it, no evidence was provided to prove that OP screams like a woman. Very suspicious since Burger testified that she heard the scream test being conducted.

bbm - Hmm, didn't Roder on the video claim that it would have been impossible for someone as far away as Burger(and therefore the Stander's iirc) to have heard, let alone correctly identified any sound emanating from OP's.

 

[kaos]

Well, they did have Dixon submit the gunshot/cricket bat sound test evidence, but I'm pretty sure Masipa will reject it because Nel got him to concede:

1. He was unqualified to testify as an expert in sound (among other things).

2. The ammunition used for the test was not the same as OP's.

3. The gunshot test had to be repeated on a different day (that he was not present for) because the gun malfunctioned.

4. The background sound of insects (crickets) could be clearly heard during the bat strike recording, but were much softer during the gunshot recording....which suggests the bat portion had been manipulated to sound louder.

What a disaster for the DT considering the fact that the sounds the five ear witnesses heard, all of whom testified were gunshots, is so crucial in determining the sequence of the cricket bat versus the gunshots. Their "expert" was supposed to prove that the sound of gunshots and bat strikes can easily be confused, but he failed miserably.

And yes! Although the court was promised it, no evidence was provided to prove that OP screams like a woman. Very suspicious since Burger testified that she heard the scream test being conducted.

I'm at Mr Dixon's CE now. I did feel sorry for him at one point as he really was made to look like a fumbling idiot by Nel but then I thought that this guy has been called upon to 'assist the court' and establish facts that will determine an accused person's guilt or innocence. If you can step away from who the accused is in this case for a moment, then it really should be considered criminal that he was able to testify in fields that he was anything but an expert in and OP's legal team should be answerable to somebody about why Mr Dixon was giving testimony about such a broad range of forensic specialities.

Another question that I hope Judge Masipa addresses is the complete lack of written reports by quite a few of the defence expert witnesses but I suppose that's a deliberate tactic in that if it's not written down, it can't be used against the accused

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I'm at Mr Dixon's CE now. I did feel sorry for him at one point as he really was made to look like a fumbling idiot by Nel but then I thought that this guy has been called upon to 'assist the court' and establish facts that will determine an accused person's guilt or innocence. If you can step away from who the accused is in this case for a moment, then it really should be considered criminal that he was able to testify in fields that he was anything but an expert in and OP's legal team should be answerable to somebody about why Mr Dixon was giving testimony about such a broad range of forensic specialities.

Another question that I hope Judge Masipa addresses is the complete lack of written reports by quite a few of the defence expert witnesses but I suppose that's a deliberate tactic in that if it's not written down, it can't be used against the accused

Bulls eye, Kaos! You make such an excellent point.

How many defendants has this faux-expert Dixon helped convict or acquit?! Frightening. Unless it’s pertaining to rocks, I can’t see any competent court ever considering his testimony as credible. By allowing such a massively unqualified person to testify, that means anyone, including you and I, could pass ourselves off as (forensic) experts! It reduces the entire justice system to a dangerous, corrupt farce.

And you nailed it - what forensic expert produces no written report? Any such expert should be automatically disqualified as a witness and shown the door, the attorneys sanctioned with contempt or stupidity or both.

Wonder how long it took Roux to round up such experts - those actually willing to testify WITHOUT reports? Shady in the extreme. Only one reason to seek out such people - the greed and willingness to verbally testify to be able to TAILOR the evidence. One cannot argue with their own report.

It’s clear Roux started out knowing his was gonna be a brutal uphill battle (geez, just look at his client! Lol) and he only became more desperate as the trial progressed.

No wonder all his other potential witnesses freaked and fled!

 

[vansleuths]

Oh K.T. You really should There's a markable difference in his clarity and attitude when he's rattling off his own testimony to Roux compared to the memory lapses and argumentative nature he uses towards Nel. I'm going over OP's testimony again now and have lost count of the amount of times he's tried to slip in 'tampering' into his CE and it's not just the word 'tampering' that he uses. Every single time he mentions it, it's "tampered, disturbed and contaminated".

A bit I noticed yesterday was OP saying to Nel there would be people coming to testify how well him and Reeva got along yet the only defence witnesses that alluded to that were his coach and Prof Derman yet neither of those even met Reeva from my recollection?

I hope Nel also addresses that during OP's CE, he constantly whinged about his watches going missing, the police traipsing through his house touching things, them not wearing protective clothing etc as if they had no right to be interfering in his life. Never mentioning at any point that Reeva and her family were entitled to justice, that Reeva and her family were entitled to a better police investigation. As per usual, it was all about Oscar.

BIB I forget the fellow's name, but there was a neighbour of OP that spoke about OP and Reeva's relationship. He said OP greeted him in a friendly way when OP saw him in the driveway and one time, OP introduced Reeva as his fiancée. He told OP, she was a keeper.

 

[vansleuths]

I wish I shared your confidence.

I have trust and confidence in Judge Masipa, and I don't see any chance of an acquittal. I think he will be found guilty of all charges and given a heavy jail sentence.

It's what comes afterwards that gives cause for concern. Because once the trial is over, and verdict and sentence delivered, public interest will drop. The world won't be watching any more.

Pistorius will be granted leave to appeal, he will be allowed bail and will continue his life of luxury, holidaying where he pleases etc etc. This may go on for a long time pending delay after delay, and eventually money and influence will swing things so that he escapes jail altogether. But most people will be unaware of this.

What I hope Judge Masipa does is find him guilty on all the firearms charges, sentence him to the maximum jail term, and refuse him leave to appeal THOSE charges. Then at least he will spend some time where he deserves to be.

BIB You would think that since the defence really didn't put up any argument against the firearm charges, he will be found guilty on all counts. The only issue is that more often then not, first time offenders for these sorts of charges are usually given a fine though you would hope that Masipa would come down a little harder due to the evidence that appears to suggest that OP did lie about how these events really unfolded.

 

[vansleuths]

BBM: If that is true, wouldn't we have heard about more empty shells laying around?

Good point

 

[Greater Than]

COUPLE OF QUESTIONS:

1. "WEARING OP's CLOTHES"
I have been listening to some of the testimony I missed (before discovering it was available on youtube.com). On April 15th (session 1) Nel is x-examining OP about the inside out jeans and OP states that Reeva was wearing HIS CLOTHES (I think he means specifically his shorts). I never realized this. I was focused on black tank top (whether it was the same top she wore when arriving that evening thru guard gate). After hearing that I realize pic of her at base of stairs, shorts very long and baggy for woman. Especially someone with her great shape, it's a hot, muggy night with no air conditioning - seems more likely she would wear smaller, better fitting female PJ type shorts, or perhaps just underwear & tank type top in this weather. Certainly before wearing these long, heavy, ugly basketball length guys shorts. OP originally said to Nel, "when I arrived home Reeva was already in her pajamas, fixing dinner". Later, when Nel suggests RS may have been "taking off jeans" (reason inside out) to change & leave, OP says "why would she take off her clothes and put on my clothes if she were getting ready to leave? Why wouldn't she put on her own clothes, if this hypothetical argument were true?"

Do you think it's possible that as things got extremely heated, she grabbed the jeans from the laundry room (that she had previously washed - likely turned inside out when washed - saves from fading), and ran upstairs, locked bedroom door to keep OP out, get dressed and leave? In the middle of this, OP damages bedroom door & busts in. Yanks the jeans from Reeva and they land on floor. She needing to put on something & get out- but now can't get to jeans - grabs a pair of OP's shorts she sees to throw on - doesn't exactly want to run outside in underwear (or perhaps, no bottoms at all at this point). These may be the 2nd pair of pants he's yanked away. 1st pair may be the pair at the bottom of the window. (Just a thought - could see OP mocking Reeva's cries for help, yelling "help, help, help" out the bathroom window, while in the process of tossing those 2nd pair of jeans out.)

My QUESTION...was any of this discussed or cleared up later? RS wearing OP's shorts? Seems so unlikely that AFTER DOING her wash and having clean items, that Reeva would be welcoming OP home after this "nasty, terrible, no-good day" of his and preparing a thoughtful pre-Valentine's Day dinner for him (with VD gift to OP wrapped and displayed on the counter) . . . . that she would welcome him home at 6pm dressed in his own baggy, sloppy, heavy basketball shorts. As thoughtful and aware of others as she seems, this does not feel like something she would welcome him home in on this night.

RSBM

I don't think the black tank top she was wearing when she arrived is the same one she was wearing when she was shot. The one she arrived in looks more low cut to me and the straps look thinner.

Arriving
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/cctv-image-of-reeva-arriving-on-feb-13-2.jpg

Evidence Photo
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/black-tank-top.jpg

Crime Scene Photo ***WARNING: GRAPHIC***
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/reeva-head.png


As for the shorts, I don't think she's wearing baggy basketball shorts in the picture of her at the bottom of the stairs. I believe that is a white towel (drenched in blood from the shot to the hip) over her lap. It's been reported she was wearing grey Nike running shorts. I could swear I've seen an evidence photo of them being held up showing the bullet hole through the waistband, but I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it.

***WARNING: GRAPHIC***
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/reeva.png

 

[Greater Than]

bbm - Hmm, didn't Roder on the video claim that it would have been impossible for someone as far away as Burger(and therefore the Stander's iirc) to have heard, let alone correctly identified any sound emanating from OP's.

I ignored most of what Roder said in that video because he was clearly full of it, so I don't remember. But he's another one the DT didn't call as a witness to show his pricey animation, as well as their star forensic pathologist expert who witnessed Reeva's autopsy.

But yes, any claim that Burger lives too far to hear Reeva's screams is ridiculous if we're to believe Carice Stander heard OP cry for help, since she lives further than any other ear witness.

 

[vansleuths]

It's shocking the amount of times OP blames his legal team, telling the court he told his legal team something but they 'forgot' to put it in the bail affadavit (door slamming/onto the balcony etc) or are too incompetent to put the right questions or evidence to witnesses (fan positions and so on).

Now I don't watch a lot of trials but I just imagined Roux standing up and saying "You know what M'lady. He's talking total and utter bollocks and I've had enough. He never told us that. In fact, this is the first I've heard about all this and I'm having an incredible time keeping up with this sniveling rascal. I'm done with this racket." and walks off. I wonder if that would be instant sentencing for OP or a mistrial!

BIB....that would sure be courtroom drama, but Roux wouldn't do that as that would mean losing $5,000/day . Putting the money aside, I think Roux has a lot to gain from this trial.

 

[vansleuths]

One of the conditions of OP’s bail is no contact with witnesses.

During the trial, multiple witnesses - including a police officer*- saw and heard OP speak to Gina Myers with his infamous “How do you sleep at night?”

How is this not a violation of his bail terms?

Why wasn’t this violation aggressively pursued by the State?

(One must seriously wonder if he’s also contacted/harassed/intimidated other witnesses, too.)

We saw what happened when OP was allowed to freely drink alcohol and party all night, didn’t we? Why does trouble follow OP everywhere he goes? It’s very clear that OP thinks that NO rules or restrictions should ever apply to him - including trying to literally get away with murder. OP is so brazen, so arrogant, that he publicly spoke to a witness in open court in full view of even a police officer!

The Game has now changed. Nothing is out of bounds for him; he has little else to lose - especially since he no longer has a career and sponsors to keep happy. The guy’s a proven time bomb. If he’s set free, it’s just a matter of time before someone else pays the price.

* Oscar: They’re all LIARS! Everyone against me my whole life are liars! I’m the only one who ever tells the truth (even when I’m lying)!

If this isn’t sociopathic narcissism I don’t know what is.

BIB It's wasn't a violation of his bail because while Myers was on the PT witness list, she was never called as a witness.

 

[vansleuths]

It is my understanding that he will have to reapply for bail pending his appeals if he is sentenced to prison.

I would hope that getting a bail application approved once one is convicted of the crime would be much more difficult than when one is merely accused.

BIB. I was wondering about this myself, I don't suppose you would have a link that would detail the SA process for bail pending an appeal

 

[Greater Than]

I'm at Mr Dixon's CE now. I did feel sorry for him at one point as he really was made to look like a fumbling idiot by Nel but then I thought that this guy has been called upon to 'assist the court' and establish facts that will determine an accused person's guilt or innocence. If you can step away from who the accused is in this case for a moment, then it really should be considered criminal that he was able to testify in fields that he was anything but an expert in and OP's legal team should be answerable to somebody about why Mr Dixon was giving testimony about such a broad range of forensic specialities.

Another question that I hope Judge Masipa addresses is the complete lack of written reports by quite a few of the defence expert witnesses but I suppose that's a deliberate tactic in that if it's not written down, it can't be used against the accused

Dixon was all over the place. It was like a three ring circus! He's a forensic geologist who admitted that he does not have sufficient expertise in ballistics, blood spatter, sound and visibility, but he was going to testify about them ALL!!! :takeabow:

My favorite was when he was reviewing the visibility test he conducted, explaining that OP's bedroom is pitch black with the curtains closed. Nel asked, "Was the balcony light on? In OP's version it was on." Nope. Dixon did a visibility test without ensuring he was reconstructing the conditions exactly as they were that night. Then Nel asked him what instrument he used. "I used only my eyes." HIS EYES!! :floorlaugh:

 

[Greater Than]

BIB. I was wondering about this myself, I don't suppose you would have a link that would detail the SA process for bail pending an appeal

Not a link explaining the appeal process, but Ulrich Roux (SA attorney who contributes to the round table discussions on Oscar Channel 199) tweeted this in response to a question about it:

@ulrichroux: @MariMapulasa a convicted accused will have to re-apply for bail pending finalisation of his appeal.Full bail application to take place

https://twitter.com/ulrichroux/statu...96032379199488

 

[808]

RSBM

I don't think the black tank top she was wearing when she arrived is the same one she was wearing when she was shot. The one she arrived in looks more low cut to me and the straps look thinner.

Arriving
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/cctv-image-of-reeva-arriving-on-feb-13-2.jpg

Evidence Photo
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/black-tank-top.jpg

Crime Scene Photo ***WARNING: GRAPHIC***
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/reeva-head.png


As for the shorts, I don't think she's wearing baggy basketball shorts in the picture of her at the bottom of the stairs. I believe that is a white towel (drenched in blood from the shot to the hip) over her lap. It's been reported she was wearing grey Nike running shorts. I could swear I've seen an evidence photo of them being held up showing the bullet hole through the waistband, but I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it.

***WARNING: GRAPHIC***
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/reeva.png

_________________________
"It cannot be explained as of now," he said Steenkamp's attire, "until such time the accused can actually take up a stand and say, 'She decided to put on clothes to go to the bathroom' or 'She decided to say, "I'm gonna sleep in clothes. I'm not gonna put my nighties on."'"

Another prosecution spokesman, Nathi Mncube, told "Dateline" that what Steenkamp wore will be central to the government's case when the trial opens Monday.

"There is a piece of evidence around the clothes that could suggest what happened there," he said. "To disclose it now would be to disclose a lot of our thinking around the case before the time."

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...lothes-are-key-evidence-pistorius-case-n39071
___________________________________________

This has intrigued me since the first documentary about the trial. All the prosecution evidence got leaked before the trial but what was the special detail that was to be revealed in the trial? Having lived in the kind of humid / hot conditions like Pretoria I would be wearing nothing to bed. Maybe the argument is just that she was wearing anything or that she had night clothes ready for bed that were unworn.
I also believe that perhaps some of the autopsy reports that were withheld could hold a few clues.


Might be Nels coup de gras in his closing argument (If he can disclose it publicly.)

 

[jay-jay]

I could be wrong, but I think there’s at lease a slim chance that Roux has very quietly, very slickly, very deliberately helped pave the way to prison for his client. (Payback’s a tough mamacita, ain’t it, Oz?)

~rsbm~

I totally agree with you there .. and I do believe that a defence lawyer will only properly defend a client if they believe them to be innocent, other than that (if they think they are guilty), they are just there to do a job because all persons facing trial are entitled to be defended. I think that a defence lawyer would lose their reputation if they deliberately and actively tried to get people off the hook for crimes they know them to have committed.

 

[jay-jay]

4MrsB, I can't believe she'd be wearing those clothes through choice either. Remember too that she was supposed to be doing yoga in the bedroom so presumably would also have wanted to shower afterwards. In a new relationship, the night before she allegedly intended to tell OP for the first time that she loved him and she's wearing basketball shorts to bed - I don't buy it.

The Valentine's Day issues were debated on here at the time after OP testified they "weren't going to make a big deal of it". Reeva's actions say exactly the opposite. Her tweets suggest she was looking forward to it, the speech she was going to make specifically mentions it and her gift was her final word on the matter. She did want to feel special that day In his book he writes about sneaking over to a girlfriend's house to blow up balloons for Valentine's Day and painting on the road outside that he loved her so he's perfectly aware of what a big deal it is.

Yup .. I really do not think that it is some sort of strange coincidence that he killed her on Valentine's Day .. Valentine's Day (along with Christmas) is well known to be the time when domestic violence rates are at their highest.

 

[Interested Bystander]

bbm - Hmm, didn't Roder on the video claim that it would have been impossible for someone as far away as Burger(and therefore the Stander's iirc) to have heard, let alone correctly identified any sound emanating from OP's.

Val, you are right, he did, but Roder is an idiot, paid to bolster OP's alibi. I know you will remember the Burgers must have heard something because they testified that they rang security to say there was shooting and screaming coming from Silverwoods. Unfortunately, in error, Mrs Burger gave Mr Burger the telephone number for security at their old address. There is no way anyone would go to the trouble of ringing security in the middle of the night (even though it was the wrong number) to report a "murder" taking place, if nothing was happening. They then decided that there must be many more neighbours who lived nearer who would have heard the same and did not think they needed to do anything more about it. However, when the story broke, and it did not replicate their memories of the event, they contacted the police and gave their version (my explanation is very abridged). If they did not hear anything why on earth would they have bothered? People don't just wake in the night (two of them) and, off the top of their heads, report a possible murder taking place. Roder does not make sense and I am sure he knows this but he is in the pay of OP. IMO, the Burgers definitely heard what they said they heard.