Trial Discussion Thread #48

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vansleuths said:
Roux kind of muddied the waters with bathroom lights not working. I've never been quite clear on this point.

Could someone confirm:

1. Was the light in the bathroom on or off?
2. Was the light in the WC where Reeva was on or off?


Thank you
Click to expand...


BiB

The bathroom light was on.
The light in the WC cubicle was broken and not working.
 
liesbeth said:
The State filed their written argument on Thursday. The defence/defense will file theirs on Monday, 4 August. The verbal arguments are scheduled for 7 and 8 August at which time the written arguments may be published. That's it in a nutshell.

Unless you meant on this thread? We gossiped about Frank, Oscar's housekeeper/gardener. Bickered a bit about how the judge will..well, judge. Bickered some more about racism. Oh, and AJ got snipped. Same old, same old. :) We're all waiting for Thursday.
Click to expand...

:silly: We're a bickering but friendly sort of bunch. :D

Poor ol' Frank, probably not in his wildest dreams believe he would be discussed and hashed over so much by people from all over the world. :thinking:
 
Val1 said:
As I previously noted in an earlier post, OP's brother is/was probably quite capable of assisting with the cell phone "inspection" so yes the six days before the DT revealed they had it was probably enough time to do whatever they needed to do with it. Also, someone had mentioned there was a time limit on how long things are stored on databases(subject of course to maintenance downtimes that often delete all backup data so as not to interfere with new patches etc) so whether some of the data could have been successfully scrubbed can also not be disregarded. As for getting rid of the phone, I doubt whether the DT would have thought that would be a good idea since wasn't that the phone that had been used for all the post killing calls, some apparently made by CS? As long as they could ensure there wasn't anything "bad" saved on it, ie pics, chat logs, videos, then I'm sure they thought it could only help their case what with the call to Netcare verified on it...

Edit: Oh yea, almost forgot, would any of the whatsapp messages been admissable if the phone had gone missing?
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Well this is a good point because that time with team OP could have made a lot of difference to the phones contents.

Whatsapp messages are kept for 7 days on the server.

Carl /whomever could have deleted photos, messages, documents but probably not the call registers.

Despite what people may think not everything when deleted has a signature or a retrievable file.

If you delete stuff it actually can remain deleted or hard to see at a block level on the storage device.

My take on this is that it follows a pattern of denial,obfuscation and evidential manipulation by the accused.

Nel will deal with what he can use but this is a significant instance of evidence that could have been manipulated.:discuss:

MOO
 
808 said:
Well this is a good point because that time with team OP could have made a lot of difference to the phones contents.

Whatsapp messages are kept for 7 days on the server.

Carl /whomever could have deleted photos, messages, documents but probably not the call registers.

Despite what people may think not everything when deleted has a signature or a retrievable file.

If you delete stuff it actually can remain deleted or hard to see at a block level on the storage device.

My take on this is that it follows a pattern of denial,obfuscation and evidential manipulation by the accused.

Nel will deal with what he can use but this is a significant instance of evidence that could have been manipulated.:discuss:

MOO
Click to expand...

I agree, the phone went missing for a reason. Just posting a link with relevant info, it's all gobbledygook to me, my kids use it though. :dunno:

http://www.whatsapp.com/faq/android/20887921
 
'He was taken to hospital and put in the intensive care unit for further medical treatment. He has since been declared out of danger by doctors.
In a statement, his uncle Arnold Pistorius said: “Carl’s vehicle was hit head-on by another car that had swerved from the opposite side of the [N1] highway into … oncoming traffic.” '

http://www.news.com.au/world/carl-p...-in-south-africa/story-fndir2ev-1227011325808

Photo Link: http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/vjuv-yW5DL7/Oscar+Pistorius+Tried+Pretoria/ddgVSMsBg-z/Carl+Pistorius
 

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Of course it's good that his he's going to be okay. I guess I'm just cynical about anything pertaining to this family & their press release spins. I think it's INTERESTING that they threw in their how it was the other vehicle's fault before the true facts of the accident from the police report or investigation comes out. Also weird, they mention it's the other vehicle's fault, but no word on their condition. Maybe they don't know, but I bet they do.
Black clouds over this family it seems.
 
'Carl Pistorius was returning from a business trip in Polokwane on Friday evening. A colleague was following him in a different car and witnessed the accident, his uncle said.

In May last year, Carl Pistorius was acquitted on a culpable homicide charge.

The ...Court also acquitted him on alternative charges of reckless or negligent driving, and driving without reasonable consideration for another person using the road.'

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...edium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it#.U9y7OMsaySM
 
zwiebel said:
'Carl Pistorius was returning from a business trip in Polokwane on Friday evening. A colleague was following him in a different car and witnessed the accident, his uncle said.

In May last year, Carl Pistorius was acquitted on a culpable homicide charge.

The ...Court also acquitted him on alternative charges of reckless or negligent driving, and driving without reasonable consideration for another person using the road.'

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...edium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it#.U9y7OMsaySM
Click to expand...

I would like to read a comment from the police about the accident, I'm not too trusting of Uncle Arnold. :drumroll:
 
The N1 is dual carriageway without a central reservation North of the Toll gate in that area. So I am assuming it must have been in that area which is Modimolle/Limpopo. South of the Toll Gate (towards Pretoria) it is dual carriageway WITH a central reservation. Whatever happened it seems it is likely he would have been in the fast lane - not surprising with the surname Pistorius and the known history of fast driving. I hope there are other witnesses, not just his "friend". I am sure we all can see why. Call me a cynic. Speed limit on designated N roads is 120 km/h (75mph).
 
How did the car coming the other way manage to get onto his side of the road? Don't they have barriers on motorways in SA?
 
Call me a cynic too, Bystander .. I am also interested to know of other witnesses than his friend because, quite frankly, I do not believe a word that comes from that family any more.
 
jay-jay said:
How did the car coming the other way manage to get onto his side of the road? Don't they have barriers on motorways in SA?
Click to expand...

Parts of it have a central reservation, other parts are dual carriageway with only a yellow line inside double white lines which I assume means one cannot cross the central yellow line. Perhaps one of our SA members would confirm. Hopefully if there was queuing traffic there will be some accurate witness statements. Below is a view of the N1 in the Modimolle/Limpopo area. South of the toll gate (which is slightly south but very near this photo) it is dual carriageway with a wide grass central reservation all the way to Pretoria. Interesting nobody has said whether any other drivers/passengers in other cars were injured.

N1 Limpopo.JPG
 
Val1 said:
As I previously noted in an earlier post, OP's brother is/was probably quite capable of assisting with the cell phone "inspection" so yes the six days before the DT revealed they had it was probably enough time to do whatever they needed to do with it. Also, someone had mentioned there was a time limit on how long things are stored on databases(subject of course to maintenance downtimes that often delete all backup data so as not to interfere with new patches etc) so whether some of the data could have been successfully scrubbed can also not be disregarded. As for getting rid of the phone, I doubt whether the DT would have thought that would be a good idea since wasn't that the phone that had been used for all the post killing calls, some apparently made by CS? As long as they could ensure there wasn't anything "bad" saved on it, ie pics, chat logs, videos, then I'm sure they thought it could only help their case what with the call to Netcare verified on it...

Edit: Oh yea, almost forgot, would any of the whatsapp messages been admissable if the phone had gone missing?
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying… I'm NOT alleging that it is impossible that the phone was successfully and invisibly tampered with… I'm alleging that it is very unlikely.

1. IMO, Roux would not take part in the illegal tampering of evidence… this would jeopardize his career as an attorney, could face criminal charges and jail time.

2. I believe that Carl and/or Roux browsed the phone's content to 'help' OP prepare his story… to make sure nothing would be stated by OP that would be contradicted by the phone's content.

3. The phone could have still easily 'disappeared'… the phone itself was NOT used to demonstrate any of the post-killing calls… the detailed billing from Vodacom's servers was used to determine ALL calls (including Netcare)… content of the phones 0020 and 4949 were NOT used at all, neither by State nor Defence.

4. All the Whatsapp messages read into the Court record and put into evidence originated from Reeva's 5353 phone… Naturally they would still be admissible if OP's 0020 phone had gone 'missing'.

5. What type of "pics, chat logs, videos, etc." could possibly require taking such a HUGE risk as tampering with evidence that you plan to return to the State for analysis by experts… I just can't see any… maybe a lack of imagination on my part… the only way it could make sense to me is if OP had planned killing Reeva in advance and was stupid enough to put the details of his plan on his phone… but we know that's not the case.

For sake of argument, let us assume that such an incriminating "pics, chat logs, videos, etc." did exist an was stored on OP's phone :

- Tampering with the phone's data would result in a ticking time bomb for the Defence the moment they disclosed it was in their possession… if the tampering was discovered, OP would immediately loose all credibility, Roux would be disbarred and both would face evidence tampering criminal charges… I doubt that OP and Roux would stake their lives on Carl's improvised iPhone tampering skills… especially since nothing useful to the Defence was in that phone.

- Destroying the phone would be by far the safe and intelligent thing to do… Police did not realize the 0020 phone even existed until 19 February…5 days after OP's arrest... the fact that OP's watch had already mysteriously disappeared whilst in custody of the Police laid the ground for Police inaptitude at preserving evidence in a crime scene… so many people were in that house that it would be impossible to retrace and determine who left with it… On OP's side : Aimee, Carl, Carice, Johan, Oldwage… On the State's side : all of the police and all of the investigators.

Finally,

- I believe OP DID tamper with evidence at the crime scene, albeit in clumsy way which, in the end, most probably did not help him in his fabricated version.

- I believe the absconding of OP's phone was NOT innocent… same as Reeva's purse (and possibly OP's watch)… someone thought it prudent to take it to protect OP.

- I believe that the phone was accessed and browsed after being absconded : Roux stated on 20 February at the bail hearing that the 0020 phone was used by OP at 3:20AM to call Netcare… the exact Vodacom server time is 3:20:05… Roux could not have known that 3:20AM time without accessing the phone's content.
 
AJ_DS said:
I agree with what you are saying… I'm NOT alleging that it is impossible that the phone was successfully and invisibly tampered with… I'm alleging that it is very unlikely.

1. IMO, Roux would not take part in the illegal tampering of evidence… this would jeopardize his career as an attorney, could face criminal charges and jail time.

2. I believe that Carl and/or Roux browsed the phone's content to 'help' OP prepare his story… to make sure nothing would be stated by OP that would be contradicted by the phone's content.

3. The phone could have still easily 'disappeared'… the phone itself was NOT used to demonstrate any of the post-killing calls… the detailed billing from Vodacom's servers was used to determine ALL calls (including Netcare)… content of the phones 0020 and 4949 were NOT used at all, neither by State nor Defence.

4. All the Whatsapp messages read into the Court record and put into evidence originated from Reeva's 5353 phone… Naturally they would still be admissible if OP's 0020 phone had gone 'missing'.

5. What type of "pics, chat logs, videos, etc." could possibly require taking such a HUGE risk as tampering with evidence that you plan to return to the State for analysis by experts… I just can't see any… maybe a lack of imagination on my part… the only way it could make sense to me is if OP had planned killing Reeva in advance and was stupid enough to put the details of his plan on his phone… but we know that's not the case.

For sake of argument, let us assume that such an incriminating "pics, chat logs, videos, etc." did exist an was stored on OP's phone :

- Tampering with the phone's data would result in a ticking time bomb for the Defence the moment they disclosed it was in their possession… if the tampering was discovered, OP would immediately loose all credibility, Roux would be disbarred and both would face evidence tampering criminal charges… I doubt that OP and Roux would stake their lives on Carl's improvised iPhone tampering skills… especially since nothing useful to the Defence was in that phone.

- Destroying the phone would be by far the safe and intelligent thing to do… Police did not realize the 0020 phone even existed until 19 February…5 days after OP's arrest... the fact that OP's watch had already mysteriously disappeared whilst in custody of the Police laid the ground for Police inaptitude at preserving evidence in a crime scene… so many people were in that house that it would be impossible to retrace and determine who left with it… On OP's side : Aimee, Carl, Carice, Johan, Oldwage… On the State's side : all of the police and all of the investigators.

Finally,

- I believe OP DID tamper with evidence at the crime scene, albeit in clumsy way which, in the end, most probably did not help him in his fabricated version.

- I believe the absconding of OP's phone was NOT innocent… same as Reeva's purse (and possibly OP's watch)… someone thought it prudent to take it to protect OP.

- I believe that the phone was accessed and browsed after being absconded : Roux stated on 20 February at the bail hearing that the 0020 phone was used by OP at 3:20AM to call Netcare… the exact Vodacom server time is 3:20:05… Roux could not have known that 3:20AM time without accessing the phone's content.
Click to expand...

BIB

I thought we knew it was only the Whatsapp messages that couldn't be accessed. Like most, I feel this phone was taken with the intent of interfering with it, if necessary. I am not sure whether Apple ever divulged anything from OP's Whatsapps or whether there was nothing to divulge. Anyone know whether Apple did access his Whatsapps in the end?
 
A little more on the CP crash.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rother-in-intensive-care-after-car-crash.html

"Brigadier Hangwani Mulaudzi, police spokesman, said Mr Pistorius was alone in a Toyota Corolla when the accident happened.
He said: "Both drivers were trapped in their vehicles and had to be removed by emergency services using the jaws of life."
Cases of reckless and negligent driving have been opened against both drivers, which is standard in this kind of collision, he added."
 
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