Trial Discussion Thread #48

[Cherwell]

Literally everything in his spartan, cold-looking house appeared to be some shade of beige/tan and white with touches of black. (Even his dogs are tan and white/black!)

To be fair, dogs don't come in too many other colours.
Nothing that would clash, anyway :giggle:

 

[AJ_DS]

BIB

I thought we knew it was only the Whatsapp messages that couldn't be accessed. Like most, I feel this phone was taken with the intent of interfering with it, if necessary. I am not sure whether Apple ever divulged anything from OP's Whatsapps or whether there was nothing to divulge. Anyone know whether Apple did access his Whatsapps in the end?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'only Whatsapp' data… data is data and all of it is stored in the same fashion on the phone whether Whatsapp, Facebook, images, docs, emails, etc…

I did some research on the Apple-USA… here is what I believed happened :

- OP's 0020 phone was passcode protected and he did not disclose the passcode to police investigators

- Police investigators used XRY and Cellebrite software to extract the phone's content

- XRY software can download successfully most stuff on an iPhone even deleted stuff but when the phone is passcode protected the deleted stuff is not always successfully recovered because of encryption.

- Police asked the assistance of Apple-USA to bypass the passcode protection… FBI was also involved… don't know the result of this.

- About 5 days before OP's Trial been, XRY released a new version of their software which could better retrieve deleted data on a passcode protected phone… Moller did a 3rd and final extraction using that new XRY version 3 days (IIRC) before the Trial began.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'only Whatsapp' data… data is data and all of it is stored in the same fashion on the phone whether Whatsapp, Facebook, images, docs, emails, etc…

I did some research on the Apple-USA… here is what I believed happened :

- OP's 0020 phone was passcode protected and he did not disclose the passcode to police investigators

- Police investigators used XRY and Cellebrite software to extract the phone's content

- XRY software can download successfully most stuff on an iPhone even deleted stuff but when the phone is passcode protected the deleted stuff is not always successfully recovered because of encryption.

- Police asked the assistance of Apple-USA to bypass the passcode protection… FBI was also involved… don't know the result of this.

- About 5 days before OP's Trial been, XRY released a new version of their software which could better retrieve deleted data on a passcode protected phone… Moller did a 3rd and final extraction using that new XRY version 3 days (IIRC) before the Trial began.

Thank you for that. I cannot argue the point because I do not know enough about encryption. However I do know Whatsapps are automatically encrypted and as you say the latest XRY may be able to retrieve deleted data and Moller tried the new version but we have no indication that indeed he was successful with Whatsapps or have I missed something along the way?

 

[AJ_DS]

Thank you for that. I cannot argue the point because I do not know enough about encryption. However I do know Whatsapps are automatically encrypted and as you say the latest XRY may be able to retrieve deleted data and Moller tried the new version but we have no indication that indeed he was successful with Whatsapps or have I missed something along the way?

BiB… not sure… would have to listen to Moller's testimony again… IIRC the extracted data from OP's 0020 was put into evidence… I believe the extent and thoroughness of said extraction was never addressed.

 

[Suthrnqt]

BIB

I thought we knew it was only the Whatsapp messages that couldn't be accessed. Like most, I feel this phone was taken with the intent of interfering with it, if necessary. I am not sure whether Apple ever divulged anything from OP's Whatsapps or whether there was nothing to divulge. Anyone know whether Apple did access his Whatsapps in the end?

I have always believed that something 'hinky' was going on with the phone. IIRC, it grew legs and walked out of the house that night/morning. Call me cynical, but I've never trusted a walking phone.

 

[Val1]

I agree with what you are saying… I'm NOT alleging that it is impossible that the phone was successfully and invisibly tampered with… I'm alleging that it is very unlikely.

1. IMO, Roux would not take part in the illegal tampering of evidence… this would jeopardize his career as an attorney, could face criminal charges and jail time.

2. I believe that Carl and/or Roux browsed the phone's content to 'help' OP prepare his story… to make sure nothing would be stated by OP that would be contradicted by the phone's content.

3. The phone could have still easily 'disappeared'… the phone itself was NOT used to demonstrate any of the post-killing calls… the detailed billing from Vodacom's servers was used to determine ALL calls (including Netcare)… content of the phones 0020 and 4949 were NOT used at all, neither by State nor Defence.

4. All the Whatsapp messages read into the Court record and put into evidence originated from Reeva's 5353 phone… Naturally they would still be admissible if OP's 0020 phone had gone 'missing'.

5. What type of "pics, chat logs, videos, etc." could possibly require taking such a HUGE risk as tampering with evidence that you plan to return to the State for analysis by experts… I just can't see any… maybe a lack of imagination on my part… the only way it could make sense to me is if OP had planned killing Reeva in advance and was stupid enough to put the details of his plan on his phone… but we know that's not the case.

For sake of argument, let us assume that such an incriminating "pics, chat logs, videos, etc." did exist an was stored on OP's phone :

- Tampering with the phone's data would result in a ticking time bomb for the Defence the moment they disclosed it was in their possession… if the tampering was discovered, OP would immediately loose all credibility, Roux would be disbarred and both would face evidence tampering criminal charges… I doubt that OP and Roux would stake their lives on Carl's improvised iPhone tampering skills… especially since nothing useful to the Defence was in that phone.

- Destroying the phone would be by far the safe and intelligent thing to do… Police did not realize the 0020 phone even existed until 19 February…5 days after OP's arrest... the fact that OP's watch had already mysteriously disappeared whilst in custody of the Police laid the ground for Police inaptitude at preserving evidence in a crime scene… so many people were in that house that it would be impossible to retrace and determine who left with it… On OP's side : Aimee, Carl, Carice, Johan, Oldwage… On the State's side : all of the police and all of the investigators.

Finally,

- I believe OP DID tamper with evidence at the crime scene, albeit in clumsy way which, in the end, most probably did not help him in his fabricated version.

- I believe the absconding of OP's phone was NOT innocent… same as Reeva's purse (and possibly OP's watch)… someone thought it prudent to take it to protect OP.

- I believe that the phone was accessed and browsed after being absconded : Roux stated on 20 February at the bail hearing that the 0020 phone was used by OP at 3:20AM to call Netcare… the exact Vodacom server time is 3:20:05… Roux could not have known that 3:20AM time without accessing the phone's content.

bbm - Yes and that was my point about why they would not have disposed of the 0020 phone, it was "proof" that OP had called Netcare. However, as was linked above, any whatsapp messages that OP had on his private/personal phone were only likely to have been saved for a maximum of 7 days on the whatsapp servers, so as long as he deleted his chat logs then the only way anything was likely to have been "seen", other than if RS had saved their conversations(like JA did to TA) was if the PT had been able to recover them.

http://www.whatsapp.com/faq/android/20887921

There are only up to 7 days worth of backup files.
Any new messages sent/received after a backup, and deleted before the next backup, cannot be restored.

As for what would have been worth the risk, I wish I knew, though the info on those memory sticks about the offshore accounts that was worth bringing in a locksmith to get at and remove while RS still lay dead on the floor beside them might have been one reason. Other reasons, messages to friends or other women about RS that were perhaps less than flattering to her, pics of him with business associates(legit or not) might be worth erasing so as not to bring more shame to the situation and hopefully preserve OP's future earning potential with them, heck we've speculated that perhaps he was gay or bi so again, stuff he didn't want in the public eye. When it comes down to it, only OP and his "team" really know for sure and I'm of the opinion that even OP may have been kept in the dark about some of it, just incase he blabbed on one of his nights out...

 

[Val1]

To be fair, dogs don't come in too many other colours.
Nothing that would clash, anyway :giggle:

Are you sure about that?

http://pommymommy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Diamonds-Colored-Hiar.jpg

 

[AJ_DS]

[/COLOR]

bbm - Yes and that was my point about why they would not have disposed of the 0020 phone, it was "proof" that OP had called Netcare. However, as was linked above, any whatsapp messages that OP had on his private/personal phone were only likely to have been saved for a maximum of 7 days on the whatsapp servers, so as long as he deleted his chat logs then the only way anything was likely to have been "seen", other than if RS had saved their conversations(like JA did to TA) was if the PT had been able to recover them.

http://www.whatsapp.com/faq/android/20887921


As for what would have been worth the risk, I wish I knew, though the info on those memory sticks about the offshore accounts that was worth bringing in a locksmith to get at and remove while RS still lay dead on the floor beside them might have been one reason. Other reasons, messages to friends or other women about RS that were perhaps less than flattering to her, pics of him with business associates(legit or not) might be worth erasing so as not to bring more shame to the situation and hopefully preserve OP's future earning potential with them, heck we've speculated that perhaps he was gay or bi so again, stuff he didn't want in the public eye. When it comes down to it, only OP and his "team" really know for sure and I'm of the opinion that even OP may have been kept in the dark about some of it, just incase he blabbed on one of his nights out...

BiB 1… The data on the 0020 phone was NOT used as proof of OP calling Netcare… the detailed billing from Vodacom was used to prove ALL the phone calls made/received by OP and Reeva

BiB 2… With respect, I do not believe that is correct… Reeva's body was not in OP's house when financial documents were retrieved from the safe.

Would OP jeopardize his case in a murder Trial and risk 25+ years in prison to erase unflattering, shameful or otherwise inconvenient messages on his phone ? … IMO, I believe not.

Would Roux participate, condone or allow evidence tampering and therefore be criminally liable, risk being disbarred and imprisoned so that OP would avoid embarrassment ? … IMO, I believe not.

 

[kittychi]

To be fair, dogs don't come in too many other colours.
Nothing that would clash, anyway :giggle:

:silly:

:floorlaugh:

 

[AJ_DS]

Are you sure about that?

http://pommymommy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Diamonds-Colored-Hiar.jpg

:laughcry:

If that's not a photoshoped dog then it is animal cruelty !!

 

[zwiebel]

'Limpopo police: the other driver in the Carl Pistorius crash is a Mr Tshabalala. He is in a very serious condition. @eNCAnews'

https://mobile.twitter.com/karynmaughan

 

[zwiebel]

:laughcry:

If that's not a photoshoped dog then it is animal cruelty !!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with black and white dogs - though when the camera's in my hands, they can take on a kind of nightmarish quality........

 

[Val1]

BiB 1… The data on the 0020 phone was NOT used as proof of OP calling Netcare… the detailed billing from Vodacom was used to prove ALL the phone calls made/received by OP and Reeva

BiB 2… With respect, I do not believe that is correct… Reeva's body was not in OP's house when financial documents were retrieved from the safe.

Would OP jeopardize his case in a murder Trial and risk 25+ years in prison to erase unflattering, shameful or otherwise inconvenient messages on his phone ? … IMO, I believe not.

Would Roux participate, condone or allow evidence tampering and therefore be criminally liable, risk being disbarred and imprisoned so that OP would avoid embarrassment ? … IMO, I believe not.

bbm - Do we know what time RS was removed from the scene? The following appears to say that the locksmith was there pretty early...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/oscar-pistorius-arrives-2nd-day-bail-hearing-article-1.1268575

Testifying today, the investigating officer, Detective Warrant Officer Hilton Botha -- a 24 year veteran of the South African Police Service -- told the court he arrived at the house at about 4.15 a.m.

<snip>

Botha testified that shortly after he arrived at the crime scene, Pistorius' brother Carl and a lawyer arrived at the house with a locksmith. They wanted to open a safe in the kitchen. "They said they were looking for documents and a memory stick with account numbers of offshore accounts. They did find...what they were looking for."

 

[Interested Bystander]

BiB… not sure… would have to listen to Moller's testimony again… IIRC the extracted data from OP's 0020 was put into evidence… I believe the extent and thoroughness of said extraction was never addressed.

MY BAD. I completely missed Roux indicating that the messages were Whatsapp. I quite thought they were ordinary text messages. So quite clearly the Whatsapps were available to the court.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMPYfZFquM0

25th March Session 1 @ around 1h.13.min.12 sec.

 

[AJ_DS]

bbm - Do we know what time RS was removed from the scene? The following appears to say that the locksmith was there pretty early...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/oscar-pistorius-arrives-2nd-day-bail-hearing-article-1.1268575

<snip>

Safe was opened on 16 February 2013 as per photos of police photographer who was present to document the content.

&#8230;also, safe was NOT in the kitchen but in bedroom closet.

Why would a locksmith be needed ??&#8230; OP simply gave the combination to Carl or Oldwage

 

[Val1]

Safe was opened on 16 February 2013 as per photos of police photographer who was present to document the content.

&#8230;also, safe was NOT in the kitchen but in bedroom closet.

Why would a locksmith be needed ??&#8230; OP simply gave the combination to Carl or Oldwage

The one the locksmith was needed for was in the kitchen, the one in the bedroom didn't, iirc. There were two safes.

 

[AJ_DS]

The one the locksmith was needed for was in the kitchen, the one in the bedroom didn't, iirc. There were two safes.

That's news to me !!

Why would a locksmith be needed to open the kitchen safe ??&#8230; OP was present in the house with Carl and Oldwage&#8230; why not simply give them the combination ?

Police photographer was also on the scene&#8230; why have we NOT seen photos of that safe&#8230; also no testimony, nothing about that alleged kitchen safe ??

I seriously doubt that police investigators would allow Carl and a locksmith to crack a safe in OP's house (crime scene), about 1 hour after OP shot and killed Reeva, remove documents and a memory stick without documenting what was in the safe and what was being removed from the safe.

Also, the article you referred to was published on 20 February&#8230; so most likely the reporter got it really wrong about the safe.

 

[soozieqtips]

That's news to me !!

Why would a locksmith be needed to open the kitchen safe ??… OP was present in the house with Carl and Oldwage… why not simply give them the combination ?

Police photographer was also on the scene… why have we NOT seen photos of that safe… also no testimony, nothing about that alleged kitchen safe ??

I seriously doubt that police investigators would allow Carl and a locksmith to crack a safe in OP's house (crime scene), about 1 hour after OP shot and killed Reeva, remove documents and a memory stick without documenting what was in the safe and what was being removed from the safe.

Val is correct. There was a second safe, and yes, a memory stick was removed from it not long after Reeva was murdered. Have you been following the case from the beginning? The memory stick removal was common knowledge.

 

[AJ_DS]

Val is correct. There was a second safe, and yes, a memory stick was removed from it not long after Reeva was murdered. Have you been following the case from the beginning? The memory stick removal was common knowledge.

Thanks&#8230; do you have a reference to that, the content of the safe&#8230; any info would be appreciated.

 

[Val1]

That's news to me !!

Why would a locksmith be needed to open the kitchen safe ??&#8230; OP was present in the house with Carl and Oldwage&#8230; why not simply give them the combination ?

Police photographer was also on the scene&#8230; why have we NOT seen photos of that safe&#8230; also no testimony, nothing about that alleged kitchen safe ??

I seriously doubt that police investigators would allow Carl and a locksmith to crack a safe in OP's house (crime scene), about 1 hour after OP shot and killed Reeva, remove documents and a memory stick without documenting what was in the safe and what was being removed from the safe.

Also, the article you referred to was published on 20 February&#8230; so most likely the reporter got it really wrong about the safe.

This from lisasalinger's blog, there's pics of the bedroom safe at the link too:
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

Regarding the safe that was mentioned in earlier testimony, it was located in one of the wardrobes in the upstairs hallway to the bathroom. Van Staden was present when Oscar&#8217;s brother Carl and lawyer Oldwage opened the safe. The items inside were taken out, photographed, and given to Oldwage. The safe contained a box of .38 Special ammunition, some other personal items and medals. There also was another safe downstairs in the kitchen. A locksmith was called out to help them open that safe and they did remove contents from there as well.