Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[zwiebel]

Someone earlier mentioned a scar or abrasion on the back of Reeva's neck too, which I hadn't heard about - or could that mean the ones Prof S said were on her back?

 

[kittychi]

Phillip de Wet @phillipdewet · 3m ago
Three words from Fresco: "I saw that." Which led to admission that he's seen reports on #OscarPistorius trial. A rather big no-no.

On the other hand, it points to his honesty and credibility. He didn't lie about that, so more likely he didn't lie about the gun in the restaurant incident either.

 

[atthelake]

Hi all! I have not gone through the posts from this morning, I'm just catching up on last night. Bringing this forward:

from poster Peliman:

Riddle me this please. Warning (graphic crime scene photo at the link)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1359610

Looking at the two bullet markers on the door. According to affidavits OP was on his stumps. (correct?)

Just assuming for a second the first shot was the head shot, it would have dropped her like a rock if she were standing near the loo. IMO the trajectory of the second shot through the door would have to be downward to strike her in the right hip. (positioning)

Would OP have been on his stumps to make those marked door shots in the order they presented?

I'm asking, not stating.


******It sure looks to me like he was NOT on his stumps. Look at how relatively high those holes are. To me, it looks like they are from someone standing, who is pointing downwards. And what if Reeva was sitting down on the floor in front of the door, like sitting down and holding the door closed with the right side of her body?

If he was on stumps, I would expect the shots to have come in through that bottom half of the door.

JMO.

iirc correctly, both PT and DT are now stipulating :moo: that he was on his prosthetics. Have ANY of us seen that the others were through the knocked out panel? Or is that being assumed? I haven't heard ANY testimony on such. Again :banghead: that is what drives me nutty with SA trial as the judge, it appears, has information in evidence which is not on the trial record. e.g. phone calls/this information.... which in US would have come first to lay ground work.

It's soooooooooooooo hard to follow as I think this is the case. It's not introduced into the trial as fact?

 

[aa9511]

he and Oscar met on a breakfast run. known him about 7 years.

knows Samantha met her thru Oscar..

So now we are on to Darrin. Can I just say, look at the amount of time Roux spent on Burger and her husband, also Stipp, vs. the ME.

That says to me, Roux thought the first witnesses were extremely damaging to his case and wanted to make sure he rebutted them as much as he possibly could.

JMO.

 

[aa9511]

MMORE officers arrive on the scene.. these are the chasers.... theyd been chasing Darrin since the toll plaza..

Darrin is issued with a speeding ticket.. they leave..

and how did Oscar react?? he was furious that someone else had touched his gun.

furious...

they proceed to a house in regard to ANOTHER firearm.. pertaining to a licence or an actual gun... Darrin isn't sure..


Darrin is quite pleasant to listen to.. clear.. concise.. measured... not as nutty as I expected..

and then something happens on this part of the drive.. without warning. Oscar fires thru the sunroof.. a whisker from Darrins left ear.. instinctively he pulls to the right.. he ducks down.. this is in a nanosecond..

he asks Oscar.. Darrin apologises to the judge. he asks Oscar 'is he FXX**CKING MAD??"

:floorlaugh:

 

[aa9511]

establishing the exact table... the exact arrangement of chairs, in relation to each other, and other restaurant diners..

Oscar ASKS Darrin to pass his , darrins firearm to him .. Glock 27 40 caliber

Darrin doesn't know why Oscar would ask for his firearm

He thought Oscar competent.. Darrin takes the Glock out from its carrying position.

these are sort of couches they are sitting at.. one sits quite far back in them.

Oscar leans over.to wards Darrin..

bbm

Wow. Just wow.

 

[atthelake]

On the other hand, it points to his honesty and credibility. He didn't lie about that, so more likely he didn't lie about the gun in the restaurant incident either.

Lying vs. mistaken vs. incorrect recollection is, for me, not to be confused. I almost think that the defense is doing this knowing that the judge will see through the differences (to trial followers, first hand knowledge of eyewitnesses/earwitnesses is KNOWN to not be accurate to specifics...just generalities perhaps)

What it appears to me is that the Roux is playing to the masses who FOR THE FIRST TIME are hearing a court case and perhaps not understand what trial followers in US are used to..and he is just trying to confuse/obfuscate.. (think Jose Baez...oh gawd...sorry to ask y'all to do that) :blushing:

 

[atthelake]

I couldn't find anything to really confirm the shot to the left arm, just the injury to the left hand, between the second and third finger. I don't know if anyone else has found more info.

Here is a very rough diagram of what I got.

Thanks! do you have a link for this that you posted?

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/SoulShynz9293/Decorated images/OPgraphic_zpse90df590.jpg

ETA: Alerting mod as I think I blew the margins but cannot resize myself and asking to help!

 

[aa9511]

Oscar takes the weapon under the table.. Darrin doesn't have time to say the magazine is out..

Darrin cannot say he saw what happened UNDEr the table.. but he thinks Oscar takes the bullet out of the chamber..

now. to fire a Glock 27.. there is no specific safety catch.. it has a hairline trigger.. this has to be pulled thru and compressed for the bullet to be fired..

he saw a shoulder movement on Oscar... he says. OSCAR cycled ANOTHER bullet into the gun.. whoa.

Instantly,, the gun goes off the deepest silence ensures after this frightful sound.. no one knows where the damn bullet went.. was fired towards.

they were all frightened out of their tiny minds..

decide to simply carry on.. eating their pasta..

hope they think its a gas explosion from the kitchen.

Oscars reaction.. he passes the weapon back to Darrin. instantly asks Darrin to take the rap for it ,, too much media attention.
Darrin says. he will. being a friend..

bbm

WHOA.

This is getting really creepy.

Why would Oscar just out of the blue ask for the gun, if he didn't intend on firing it? It sounds to me like this was Oscar playing one of his silly little pranks that he thought would be "funny."

I thought OScar asked the other guy Kevin (?) to take the rap for him too?

So did he ask Kevin (?) and Darrin both?

 

[Interested Bystander]

bbm

WHOA.

This is getting really creepy.

Why would Oscar just out of the blue ask for the gun, if he didn't intend on firing it? It sounds to me like this was Oscar playing one of his silly little pranks that he thought would be "funny."

I thought OScar asked the other guy Kevin (?) to take the rap for him too?

So did he ask Kevin (?) and Darrin both?

No, I am sure he only asked Darren.

 

[atthelake]

MMORE officers arrive on the scene.. these are the chasers.... theyd been chasing Darrin since the toll plaza..

Darrin is issued with a speeding ticket.. they leave..

and how did Oscar react?? he was furious that someone else had touched his gun.

furious...

they proceed to a house in regard to ANOTHER firearm.. pertaining to a licence or an actual gun... Darrin isn't sure..


Darrin is quite pleasant to listen to.. clear.. concise.. measured... not as nutty as I expected..

and then something happens on this part of the drive.. without warning. Oscar fires thru the sunroof.. a whisker from Darrins left ear.. instinctively he pulls to the right.. he ducks down.. this is in a nanosecond..

he asks Oscar.. Darrin apologises to the judge. he asks Oscar 'is he FXX**CKING MAD??"

Being "furious at the policeman for touching his gun" sounds to me like not only an "inside joke" to the other passenger in the car, but really rubbing it in about "touching my gun/fingerprints etc. " This seems like a "secret/ between them/ inflammatory" comment and his personality to make another passenger that was hearing this put in his mind the day of the restaurant shooting. Perhaps a little bit of projecting eh Oscar? Oscar sounding like a vindictive / passive aggressive b@$%#rd right now perhaps?

In the car at the time ...The one who's gun he "accidentally" shot off in the restaurant.. hmmmm.

 

[aa9511]

Roux now wants Darrin to consider that Oscar may not have heard Darrin tell him it was one up..

This I doubt ... Roux says, noisy restaurant..

Darrin is firm. very firm on this. Oscar heard him..

bbm

We know that Oscar is a liar.

Darrin made a mistake, and he took responsbility for it, he even took responsibility for someone else.

I believe Darrin over Oscar.

I think what happened is Oscar was sitting there at the restaurant and getting bored. He thought of this very "funny" idea to shoot a gun in the middle of the restaurant and he wanted to watch people get frantic and he wanted to see what kind of reaction he could get.

JMO.

 

[Interested Bystander]

It has been a relatively quiet day and my mind has wandered to Oscar's pukathon. I do believe that Roux thought it would be a good idea for OP to be seen wretching and in a terrible state. As OP was "poorly" the day before and they knew there was more to come why wasn't he given something for his nerves and sickness? IMO it was because Roux thought it would show the judge that OP was desperately upset about the situation. Call me a cynic!

 

[aa9511]

Did anyone notice how Sam's version of sunroof shoot had D involved and laughing, while D's own testimony suggests it was as much of a shock to him as to Sam?

That is interesting, I forgot about that.

It could be that Darrin was shocked and maybe even a bit frightened on the inside, but he wanted to show Oscar that he was "cool." YKWIM?

Same thing with the restaurant incident.

I think Darrin kind of looked up to Oscar and wanted to sort of, impress, him. Wanted Oscar to think he was very cool and spontaneous and wild.

JMO.

 

[Trooper]

Also bringing this from last thread:

From poster Minor4th:

Did you watch that videotape demonstration? Yes, the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door did indeed travel that far and sounded almost identical to the gunshots.

****Minor, I was following another case where we were asked to watch a video demonstration and believe that what they were suggesting could be possible from watching the demonstration. And I did not agree that it was as easy as portrayed in the video. So, in this case it is beginning to take on the same current, as in, watch the video and believe it. Well sorry, I am not going to suspend common sense just on the basis of one videotape, where I was not there to witness the making of the tape. Where the circumstances and surrounding of the video are far different from the circumstances and surroundings of Reeva's murder.

JMO.

respectfully edited by me

seconded... this dizty youtube of the cricket bat demo is astonishingly bad on so many levels..

its in the open air.. not as the bat and gunshots were banged and fired.. in an enclosed and insulated boxed in area...

the batsman is a shocker.. wrong grip, wrong feet placement, hasn't grown up with cricket like Oscar would have done..at least 30 years older than Oscar, doesn't even get the bat to hit on the same place.. the door isn't structured into a solid wall and trusses...

The sounds are hardly identical.. one would require a long experience of both cricket bat sounds and gunfire sounds to clearly point out the differences, but even to one who has never heard a cricket bat before , ( not me.. I grew up hearing cricket bats banging away all day all year) its still a long stretch..

don't know where the demo took place. was it at altitude 4,500 feet?? like Pretoria is?? was it in summer?? was it at night??

If I was Reevas verified attorney I'd be a pretty poor one to accept that demo as a given as to the similarity AND sequence re bat/gun

 

[aa9511]

When lunch break:

Rebecca Davis@becsplanb: #Pistorius just made an extremely awkward overture to (we think) a friend of Reeva's - reaching to grasp her hand - which she rebuffed

https://twitter.com/becsplanb
.
.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[bessie]

Yesterday there was a "discrepancy" on CNN/testimony/here whether is was her left or right hip, and left or right arm. Have we nailed that down that someone can clarify?

Also. I did see that the shot to the hip was at 36" US.

:doh: what is the level of each door bullet hole....? Sooooooooooo, I got out my yardstick and put up to myself... (I stand 5'7" with "long legs")...andddddddddddd, 36" is exactly at my lower butt/leg area". I think that the chances of him hitting that height means she was standing up...with her shorts ON.

Again, can someone clarify if all shots were to right side, or one was to the left as stated in some MSM.

TIA

There was a discrepancy about an injury to the left arm. This is what I posted yesterday.

This is what I've compiled from several reports. Puzzled by the description of the fractured left arm.

HEAD
...likely that one of the bullets had passed through Steenkamp's arm and into her head.
...a bullet entered Steenkamp's head in the right upper part, and ran under the skull before it exited from a second wound in the head.
...a bulk of the projectile went into the brain.
...upper eyelids were blue-reddish
...soft tissue swelling but no injury to the eyes.
...not caused by direct trauma but a fracture to the skull.
...Steenkamp did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound.
...described the wound to her head as an incapacitating wound
...physical damage to the brain because of a substantial fracture to the base of the skull.

RIGHT HIP/GROIN
...a gunshot wound to her right hip, 92cm from the ground. He said a defect he had seen on Steenkamp's pants was in line with this wound.
...right hip bone was shattered and this was likely to cause immediate instability.
..."painful wound"
...injuries to her arm and her right groin or hip area could have been fatal
...would have collapsed and, unless she had something to grip onto, it would have been difficult to get back up.
...incapacitating injury that if not operated on immediately could be fatal. He said there was a 50/50 chance of surviving the injury.
...a blue discoloration on her inner right buttocks that could have been caused from the bullet wound to her right hip.

RIGHT ARM
...right arm was shattered, leaving it with no functionality.
...right upper arm had a bluish discolouration surrounding that wound.


LEFT ARM ???
...upper left arm was deformed due to the amount of fracture...

OTHER
Wounds were caused by multiple small fragments. There was bruising in skin around the wounds.
...a grouping of abrasions, superficial fractures, on the skin of Steenkamp's torso. ...not penetrating injuries.
...injuries to her left groin but these were superficial small abrasions, possibly caused by wooden splinters
...a wound that he noted on Steenkamp's left hand that was between her second and third finger.
Abrasions on her body suggested damage from a blunt object, or projectiles that lost the force to penetrate the skin.
...a few bruises on her body that were not as a result of the shooting.
...no injury to the eyes.
...bruises on the upper part of the right thigh that were not linked to the shooting and behind the left knee and the left shin.
...a reddish bruise on the right nipple. ...could have been caused by frictional contact.
...two scratches on her back. This could have been caused by a blunt object or shrapnel.

http://citizen.co.za/141361/family-m...ole-pistorius/

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/b7b061...ned-bruising-on-her-back,-buttocks-and-breast

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...esigned-to-maximise-tissue-damage-pathologist

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-used-expanding-bullets-expert-1.1659043#.Ux34c4WPNpV

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-head-wound-fatal-pathologist-1.1659020#.Ux34foWPNpW

 

[soozieqtips]

I wonder though if Oscar's close proximity to the rapid firing of a gun might have temporarily both affected his hearing and dampened any other noises. Also, we know of course Roux will present evidence meant to support the defense claim that it was Oscar screaming. It sounds outlandish at first blush, but we have seen many times how close his emotions are to the surface. Crying, ear stuffing and blocking, twisting his body away from the tesimony, and, rather remarkably, vomiting and retching. If he did just discover he had accidentally and horrifically probably murdered his girlfriend with a gun, a hyper-emotional reaction of shrieking and screaming may have been possible. I'm willing to hear the evidence, at least.

BBM - except that while he was trying to 'resuscitate' Reeva, Stipp said OP was crying (and praying), not screaming and vomiting. Did he scream when she 'died' in his arms? He doesn't mention it at all in his affidavit (yet he does mention shouting at Reeva and at the intruder). And the witnesses recall screaming and arguments before the shooting. The probability of every witness being mistaken (and only OP being correct) is highly unlikely, in my opinion. Then there's the pathologist's statement about Reeva eating just a couple of hours before her death. Unless she ate while she slept, she must have still been awake at around midnight/1am (contradicting OP's claims that they went to bed at 10pm and fell asleep. I would like to hear all the evidence too, as I'm sure most of us do, but at this stage, he comes across as an angry narcissistic man-child who's livid that he's ended up in this situation, a situation that for once he can't get get someone else to take the blame for.

 

[Trooper]

That is interesting, I forgot about that.

It could be that Darrin was shocked and maybe even a bit frightened on the inside, but he wanted to show Oscar that he was "cool." YKWIM?

Same thing with the restaurant incident.

I think Darrin kind of looked up to Oscar and wanted to sort of, impress, him. Wanted Oscar to think he was very cool and spontaneous and wild.

JMO.

oddly, though.. Samantha didn't say Darrin was furious.. only Oscar.. both were portraying irritation.. Samanthas story was more along the lines of the MOOD of the event.. Oscar , again , incandescent with rage that someone touched his gun, Darrin contemplating the two speeding fines he just got, (one probably a bit more extensive that might have been had Oscar not leaped out of the car to put his two unnecessary 2 cents worth of abuse to the cops,) then , out of the blue, Darrin driving along at speed again, in his own little driving world, when KABOOOOM!! right past his ear.

Disbelieving laughter, that nervous sort, from Darrin, glee from Oscar .

I can assign a theoretical quality to the laughter, because Samantha didn't..

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Why do you think that Reeva ate something and was awake at abt 1 am is so crucially important to DT and Roux rejected that severely ? DT may well say that she might have gotten up and ate some snack and slept again.

But what if it can also be proved that Oscar was awake at that time as well from his internet browsing history with their times and maybe the time coinciding with those *advertiser censored* page activities ? I am not sure but I guess the time of internet acticivities can be proved from his cellphones ( one if accessed by Apple of course) or his Ipad.or he sent messages to sb or whatever he might have did there.. Sam had mentioned that he used them in bed as well..

And why do you think the affidavit changed as he sometime talked to Reeva before taking the fans in ? Surely there was a loophole there needed to be adjusted. In case it is proved that he and Reeva both were awake ..JMO