Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[Trooper]

sorry to refer back to the horror day of vomit.. it had me and my little dog dry retching just typing out my on the fly transcript ... along with shouts of disbelieving laughter at the next bout of heaving ... my eyes were rolling like a fruit machine.. some one put a hanky on his head at one stage, like a sort of veil... it simply threw me backwards, shouting in astonishment.. ....

the one thing that struck me, was.. he didn't vomit that night.. not in front of Dr Stipp.. yet there he was, plain as day, his fingers down Reevas throat, her teeth clenched in a death grip on his fingers, his hand on her bloody groin , not a heave heard.

 

[Madeleine74]

OP isn't just charged with murder; he also has other weapons charges related to firing the gun. The testimony today clearly corroborates that OP did in fact fire a pistol in the restaurant and in the car when Samantha was sitting in the back. The burden proving those charges has, IMO, been met.

While many may not 'like' these various witnesses and what they have to say, that is irrelevant. As long as they are answering honestly, that is all that is required. I believe the witnesses have been honest. The judge will decide how credible they are as she considers their testimony in making her decision.

 

[Jamtart]

Roux says, Darrin should have said , Oscar.. the magazine is in the gun..

well. I suppose.. but he didn't.. he thought that Oscar would automatically know

Darrin asks the judge.. why would I walk around with a weapon without a magazine in it??

Roux says, Oscar says he was upset that Darrin didn't tell him the magazine was in the gun.. (??)

now roux does a 1/2 twist with pike and doubles back

so its Oscars position, that its really Darrins fault, Darrin didn't tell him re the magazine.

Was he asked why he would need to walk around with a weapon at all, loaded or not? What did he think was going to happen in the restaurant that required him to be armed?

 

[Trooper]

The point is that people can witness the same event and remember it slightly differently. I fully understand this. However, I don't accept that OP didn't hear a peep out of Reeva when so many other witnesses did. Reeva's complete silence is crucial to his 'story'.

I thank you for your post the other day re your knowledge of what Reevas parents will endure for life, Sooz..


IF Reeva didn't scream.. turning it inside out.. What made those witnesses wake up?? Mrs VD Mewre..Ms Burger, Mr Johnson, Dr Stipp.. one other.. 5 people, waking at the same time from a deep sleep,, because of silence? at the same time? and this silence was so deep they rang security? I find that one hard to cop, really.. I reject the idea that they heard nothing, and I reject the concept that what they heard and then , altogether, at the same time, unknown to each other, mistook the sound for a man screaming.

 

[Trooper]

Was he asked why he would need to walk around with a weapon at all, loaded or not? What did he think was going to happen in the restaurant that required him to be armed?

Pretoria is a strange town!!


I don't go to Pretoria very often.. I suppose, twice in the last 5 years.. I know people who come from there, living in Capetown and Durban.. which is where I mainly spend my time when in SA.. but all carry guns.. small ones, big ones,.. the Capetown and Durban folks as well. Part of it is, because they can.. its like.. car keys, wallet, ciggies, lighter, gun.. ready to go. guns in gloveboxes, guns in hidden little places near the garage door, guns in the dogs kennel..

Out in the rural areas.. up in the Karoo , in the vineyards, and on wheat and sheep farms, you have to kick a gun out of the way to sit down and read the paper.. its normal.. its just how it is..

to me.. living in a nation with strict gun laws.. which I like, I hasten to add, I don't want them changed, when I go into a restaurant, for example, it never crosses my mind that anyone is armed in there, but in SA its likely that EVERY one will most likely be carrying a gun..

 

[Jamtart]

Thanks Trooper, that's helpful to know. Like you, I live in a country with very strict laws about carrying weapons, and gun ownership is rare, as is gun crime. I appreciate your insight into what is an alien culture to me

 

[graceholl]

-------
At this point, I have a very hard time seeing it as anything other than (at least) culpable homicide...Reeva screaming, and all the many witnesses now that confirm those screams, was enough to cinch that for me.

RSBM

totally agree with this.

I think at this stage culpable hom...and absolutely convictions on the firearms charges without a doubt. clearly someone who felt above the law and had a blatant disregard for the appropriate use (if there is one *says the brit*) of a firearm.

 

[HauntsForHope]

Did anyone see this episode of 20/20 yet?

The Fast Times of Oscar Pistorius


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo9Qa3jir1GZAj4rY-wCU-m-ZuIcwZnqs

 

[atthelake]

I am in Germany where some roads have no speed limit, but that speed is pushing it, even for here.

O/T :floorlaugh: I went to Germany twice for my job back in the early 90's. I knew I was going over there so took 6 months to learn the language for casual and business...I got learning modules from the library for the language which benefitted me greatly. Funny thing though that about 20 years later, I only remember one sentence that rolls off my tongue in German... "Excuse me, I would like to have an ashtray please" :floorlaugh: Well, at least that one sentence has two important words for a foreigner to know... excuse me and please!

BTW...you folks (my heritage though) have the BEST salads, but that white sausage is iffy, and the Weiss Beer... apparently too much yeast or ?? for me as I broke out in a severe allergy after drinking it. Puffy eyes/swollen face/eyes and nose watering.... An allergy to beer!!! :gasp: (and NO, it wasn't due to drinking to much of it lol.)

ETA: And before my trip I called AMEX to tell them I would be travelling to Munich, and not flag me/shut down card. The woman said "oh, Munchen"... I said "no, Munich".... she said "ok, I have you going to Munchen".. I said "no Munich"...this went back and forth a few times before she kindly told me that the name of the city is Munchen, and that Munich is the Americanized way of saying Munchen. :doh:

New Word for the day Endonym: A name used by a group or category of people to refer to themselves or their language, as opposed to a name given to them by other groups

 

[aa9511]

Hi all! I have not gone through the posts from this morning, I'm just catching up on last night. Bringing this forward:

from poster Peliman:

Riddle me this please. Warning (graphic crime scene photo at the link)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1359610

Looking at the two bullet markers on the door. According to affidavits OP was on his stumps. (correct?)

Just assuming for a second the first shot was the head shot, it would have dropped her like a rock if she were standing near the loo. IMO the trajectory of the second shot through the door would have to be downward to strike her in the right hip. (positioning)

Would OP have been on his stumps to make those marked door shots in the order they presented?

I'm asking, not stating.


******It sure looks to me like he was NOT on his stumps. Look at how relatively high those holes are. To me, it looks like they are from someone standing, who is pointing downwards. And what if Reeva was sitting down on the floor in front of the door, like sitting down and holding the door closed with the right side of her body?

If he was on stumps, I would expect the shots to have come in through that bottom half of the door.

JMO.

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks for the updates everyone - I was busy smashing my ipad, something I've threatened to do many times but didn't actually mean to this time. It's started working again though, and all the cracks seem to be underneath the screen. Odd...

Roux does seem to have cast doubt on the integrity or even the truthfullness of Derrin and Sam a bit, but I am surprised he said Oscar is going to deny the restaurant and sunroof shots outright. Can Roux really believe that there is a chance Oscar will be believed over all three of the witnesses to that event - or probably four if the Brit, Rooney, gives evidence too?

The judge will have to believe they all kind of conspired or collaborated on the same basic story if so, just to bring Oscar down or whatever. I wonder if it's possible that Roux has undermined their credibility enough to do that? Myself, I think it can't be, but I'm not a lawyer and he is a very experienced one.

Not quite sure why prosecutors are bringing these minor, additional charges - are they backup in case there is a not guilty on the murder charge?

 

[aa9511]

Also bringing this from last thread:

From poster Minor4th:

Did you watch that videotape demonstration? Yes, the sound of the cricket bat hitting the door did indeed travel that far and sounded almost identical to the gunshots.

****Minor, I was following another case where we were asked to watch a video demonstration and believe that what they were suggesting could be possible from watching the demonstration. And I did not agree that it was as easy as portrayed in the video. So, in this case it is beginning to take on the same current, as in, watch the video and believe it. Well sorry, I am not going to suspend common sense just on the basis of one videotape, where I was not there to witness the making of the tape. Where the circumstances and surrounding of the video are far different from the circumstances and surroundings of Reeva's murder.

So I can see any number of video tapes wanting me to believe otherwise, I am still going to go on my common sense, which tells me that a cricket bat sound hitting a door will not travel and sound like those of a gunshot.

The door was not moving. Only the bat was. It is going to have a different sound from say, a cricket bat hitting a fast-moving ball during a match, b/c the ball is moving at a great velocity. In this case, it was a bat hitting a stationary door.

JMO.

 

[atthelake]

Hi all! I have not gone through the posts from this morning, I'm just catching up on last night. Bringing this forward:

from poster Peliman:

Riddle me this please. Warning (graphic crime scene photo at the link)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1359610

Looking at the two bullet markers on the door. According to affidavits OP was on his stumps. (correct?)

Just assuming for a second the first shot was the head shot, it would have dropped her like a rock if she were standing near the loo. IMO the trajectory of the second shot through the door would have to be downward to strike her in the right hip. (positioning)

Would OP have been on his stumps to make those marked door shots in the order they presented?

I'm asking, not stating.


******It sure looks to me like he was NOT on his stumps. Look at how relatively high those holes are. To me, it looks like they are from someone standing, who is pointing downwards. And what if Reeva was sitting down on the floor in front of the door, like sitting down and holding the door closed with the right side of her body?

If he was on stumps, I would expect the shots to have come in through that bottom half of the door.

JMO.

Yesterday there was a "discrepancy" on CNN/testimony/here whether is was her left or right hip, and left or right arm. Have we nailed that down that someone can clarify?

Also. I did see that the shot to the hip was at 36" US.

:doh: what is the level of each door bullet hole....? Sooooooooooo, I got out my yardstick and put up to myself... (I stand 5'7" with "long legs")...andddddddddddd, 36" is exactly at my lower butt/leg area". I think that the chances of him hitting that height means she was standing up...with her shorts ON.

Again, can someone clarify if all shots were to right side, or one was to the left as stated in some MSM.

TIA

 

[aa9511]

@Debora_Patta

#OscarTrial Saayman's testimony NOW allowed to be tweeted - good reversal of judge's decision which in my opinion was anti-media freedom

https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta/status/443288539347030016

Roux cross examining Saayman now.

#OscarTrial Roux asks if shots were fired in quick succession - devastation even more marked on body in relation to cognitive functions?
https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta/status/443288731748147200

Maybe the judge reads on here at night.....:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks for the updates everyone - I was busy smashing my ipad, something I've threatened to do many times but didn't actually mean to this time. It's started working again though, and all the cracks seem to be underneath the screen. Odd...

Roux does seem to have cast doubt on the integrity or even the truthfullness of Derrin and Sam a bit, but I am surprised he said Oscar is going to deny the restaurant and sunroof shots outright. Can Roux really believe that there is a chance Oscar will be believed over all three of the witnesses to that event - or probably four if the Brit, Rooney, gives evidence too?

The judge will have to believe they all kind of conspired or collaborated on the same basic story if so, just to bring Oscar down or whatever. I wonder if it's possible that Roux has undermined their credibility enough to do that? Myself, I think it can't be, but I'm not a lawyer and he is a very experienced one.

Not quite sure why prosecutors are bringing these minor, additional charges - are they backup in case there is a not guilty on the murder charge?

No, more to do with cementing as fact that OP is a wreckless gun user with a temper in the hope that mud sticks, so to speak.

 

[aa9511]

@Debora_Patta
Oscar Pistorius appears more composed today as Roux cross-examines Gert Saayman

Discussing how food is processed - key to fact Reeva ate a small meal after 12 contrary to OP saying they went to bed at 10pm

Roux asking what journals he referred to - to make his conclusions. Roux wants an adjournment to look at journal articles

Roux asks the judge for an adjournment to read the articles Saayman refers to

Saayman says he is not relying on any one article but combines it with his years of experience

https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

Court adjourned for a half hour so Roux can read journal articles.

:facepalm:

Roux is trying to become an ME in half an hour.

 

[zwiebel]

From these, there are at least two omissions in D's original statement, which Roux accuses D of simply copying now from what he's heard Sam and Lerena testify. The golf mention and the gun magazine mention.

I wonder why D didn't tell the court why he didn't mention these things in his orginal statement, but just said 'I don't know'. He must know, surely?

 

[JuneBug67]

BBM - I think the numerous witness accounts of a woman screaming, and a pathologist who claims Reeva would have been able to scream after the first shots, proves beyond a 'reasonable' doubt that OP's account of Reeva being entirely mute throughout the whole event is an absolute lie. He can never admit she made a sound otherwise he'd have to admit he knew who he was shooting, and that's never going to happen.

I wonder though if Oscar's close proximity to the rapid firing of a gun might have temporarily both affected his hearing and dampened any other noises. Also, we know of course Roux will present evidence meant to support the defense claim that it was Oscar screaming. It sounds outlandish at first blush, but we have seen many times how close his emotions are to the surface. Crying, ear stuffing and blocking, twisting his body away from the tesimony, and, rather remarkably, vomiting and retching. If he did just discover he had accidentally and horrifically probably murdered his girlfriend with a gun, a hyper-emotional reaction of shrieking and screaming may have been possible. I'm willing to hear the evidence, at least.

 

[atthelake]

Hi all! I have not gone through the posts from this morning, I'm just catching up on last night. Bringing this forward:

from poster Peliman:

Riddle me this please. Warning (graphic crime scene photo at the link)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1359610

Looking at the two bullet markers on the door. According to affidavits OP was on his stumps. (correct?)

Just assuming for a second the first shot was the head shot, it would have dropped her like a rock if she were standing near the loo. IMO the trajectory of the second shot through the door would have to be downward to strike her in the right hip. (positioning)

Would OP have been on his stumps to make those marked door shots in the order they presented?

I'm asking, not stating.


******It sure looks to me like he was NOT on his stumps. Look at how relatively high those holes are. To me, it looks like they are from someone standing, who is pointing downwards. And what if Reeva was sitting down on the floor in front of the door, like sitting down and holding the door closed with the right side of her body?

If he was on stumps, I would expect the shots to have come in through that bottom half of the door.

JMO.

Yesterday there was a "discrepancy" on CNN/testimony/here whether is was her left or right hip, and left or right arm. Have we nailed that down that someone can clarify?

Also. I did see that the shot to the hip was at 36" US.

:doh: what is the level of each door bullet hole....? Sooooooooooo, I got out my yardstick and put up to myself... (I stand 5'7" with "long legs")...andddddddddddd, 36" is exactly at my lower butt/leg area". I think that the chances of him hitting that height means she was standing up...with her shorts ON.

Again, can someone clarify if all shots were to right side, or one was to the left as stated in some MSM.

TIA

 

[zwiebel]

Yesterday there was a "discrepancy" on CNN/testimony/here whether is was her left or right hip, and left or right arm. Have we nailed that down that someone can clarify?

Also. I did see that the shot to the hip was at 36" US.

:doh: what is the level of each door bullet hole....? Sooooooooooo, I got out my yardstick and put up to myself... (I stand 5'7" with "long legs")...andddddddddddd, 36" is exactly at my lower butt/leg area". I think that the chances of him hitting that height means she was standing up...with her shorts ON.

Again, can someone clarify if all shots were to right side, or one was to the left as stated in some MSM.

TIA

I couldn't find anything to really confirm the shot to the left arm, just the injury to the left hand, between the second and third finger. I don't know if anyone else has found more info.

Here is a very rough diagram of what I got.