Trial Discussion Thread #52 - 14.11.9, Day 41 ~announcement of the verdict~

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//snipped

I have written about this http://www.biznews.com/oscar-pistorius-trial/2014/05/oscar-pistorius-i-know-what-really-happened/

What would public reaction be if an Afrikaaner male judge issued this verdict? I think the argument today reflects badly on Judge Masipa. Perhaps people are reluctant to say so, because of the enormous good will toward her, which I also feel. But there are too many questionable conclusions and lines of reasoning.
Public reaction would be complete and utter anarchy...in our already very delicate democracy, the fact that Masipa is black and a woman may just help public perceptions but the race card is already starting to float. This is not going to be pretty.
 
Did she disregard the fact that Reeva has eaten around two hours earlier and not the eight hours earlier as
stated by OP?

Her dismissal of the FACT that there was quite a large amount of identifiable, undigested food in Reeva's stomach by saying "both sides agreed this is not an exact science" really floored me! This "inexact" method has been being used for many, many years by investigators seeking to determine a roundabout time of death.

Reeva was found to have 7 fluid ounces (200 ml) of undigested food in her stomach some 13 hours after her death! And yet this judge accepted the testimony of a non-pathologist who said that time related to stomach emptying is "purely speculative".

All of this seemingly offhand, total dismissal of salient pieces of evidence is a bit hinky when you really think about it, isn't it? Especially when combined with the apparent reliance upon Oscar-the-acknowledged-liar's "stories".

I honestly don't know what to think at this point, other than I hope like heck Oscar gets some jail time for SOMETHING.

And yes, I can imagine that the majority of the residents of South Africa - especially the women - are not please about what is going down here.
 
I haven't participated in these threads, since threads 1-5 or so.

The level of debate that I am reading here is impressive.

I am PIZZED. That's all I came to say today.

Carry on...
 
Her dismissal of the FACT that there was quite a large amount of identifiable, undigested food in Reeva's stomach by saying "both sides agreed this is not an exact science" really floored me! This "inexact" method has been being used for many, many years by investigators seeking to determine a roundabout time of death.

Reeva was found to have 7 fluid ounces (200 ml) of undigested food in her stomach some 13 hours after her death! And yet this judge accepted the testimony of a non-pathologist who said that time related to stomach emptying is "purely speculative".

All of this is a bit hinky when you really think about it, isn't it?

Ikr? It's like forensics has gone out the window.
 
Her dismissal of the FACT that there was quite a large amount of identifiable, undigested food in Reeva's stomach by saying "both sides agreed this is not an exact science" really floored me! This "inexact" method has been being used for many, many years by investigators seeking to determine a roundabout time of death.

Reeva was found to have 7 fluid ounces (200 ml) of undigested food in her stomach some 13 hours after her death! And yet this judge accepted the testimony of a non-pathologist who said that time related to stomach emptying is "purely speculative".

All of this is a bit hinky when you really think about it, isn't it?

Not and no.
 
The more discrepancies and apparent failures in interpretation of the evidence people mention or I remember, the more disgusted I become.

According to Judge Masipa the ear witnesses were all confused and they all heard OP screaming and the cricket bat.

That means that despite being awake at the correct time according to the new 'official' timeline, none of the witnesses heard the gunshots. That makes no sense at all.

Gun shots ARE louder and carry further than any noise you could make with a cricket bat.

How can you argue on the one hand that people were so far away they could not tell whether the screams were a woman or not, but then say that they heard the relatively quieter bat sounds but not the gun shots? It's rubbish.
 
RoseC (et al)-- why are you bringing race into this? I can't see any possible relevance.

Sorry, I hope I wasn't misunderstood and didn't mean to offend. Watching the trial, I felt a great sense of admiration, seeing how far SA has come from the days of Apartheid. As a woman I also greatly admire what Judge Masipa has achieved. I think that she made some errors in her verdict, and so do some legal experts. I wondered if there is reluctance to criticize because she is a remarkable woman. Perhaps I shouldn't have written that and should remove that comment.
 
Sorry, I hope I wasn't misunderstood and didn't mean to offend. Watching the trial, I felt a great sense of admiration, seeing how far SA has come from the days of Apartheid. As a woman I also greatly admire what Judge Masipa has achieved. I think that she made some errors in her verdict, and so do some legal experts. I wondered if there is reluctance to criticize because she is a remarkable woman. Perhaps I shouldn't have written that and should remove that comment.

If that's your opinion Rosie, I can't see why you can't state it. That's why we are careful here to add JMO, MOO, etc lol
 
IMHO we have the right to be critical, given that there are posters here on Websleuths who seem to have had a better grasp of the timeline than the Judge hearing the case. After all, an exceptional young woman has lost her life due to catastrophic injuries inflicted upon her by the Defendant and I believe that the Judge had an absolute responsibility to get the detail right, for the sake of the victim and her family.
 
Sorry, I hope I wasn't misunderstood and didn't mean to offend. Watching the trial, I felt a great sense of admiration, seeing how far SA has come from the days of Apartheid. As a woman I also greatly admire what Judge Masipa has achieved. I think that she made some errors in her verdict, and so do some legal experts. I wondered if there is reluctance to criticize because she is a remarkable woman. Perhaps I shouldn't have written that and should remove that comment.

Thus far, there does not seem to be any reluctance to criticize. Judges and their decisions are criticized all the time. I am not at all familiar with the history of the justice system in South Africa. Has it had a reputation for judges taking bribes? (Not that this has never happened in the U.S., but it is certainly not a common thing.)

------------------------

Here is a good article from this past February that explains the role of the Assessors.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-trial-judge-appoints-assessors-1.1646332#.VBHu2ul0xjp

Since the Assessors assist the judge in matters of fact, one would presume they had input into establishing the timeline used by the judge? Do the Prosecutor and the Defense get to examine things, such as any timeline produced, used by the judge in reaching her conclusions?

Certainly, errors can be made anywhere within a trial. Those of us who have been trial watchers for a long time have seen errors made. In the Casey Anthony case a computer expert submitted erroneous information showing that a certain webpage was accessed 72 times when, in fact, the computer program itself was in error. (Also, interestingly, after that case had long been decided it was discovered that an ill-trained police "computer expert" had failed to access numerous files off the CD copy of the hard disk from the Anthony family computer that Casey used.)

Trial errors, often for things as basic as instructing the jury here in the U.S., are the basis for appeals. If there were not errors, there would be no appeals courts. And we read stories every week about someone being granted a new trial based on an error made by a judge.
 
Sorry, I hope I wasn't misunderstood and didn't mean to offend. Watching the trial, I felt a great sense of admiration, seeing how far SA has come from the days of Apartheid. As a woman I also greatly admire what Judge Masipa has achieved. I think that she made some errors in her verdict, and so do some legal experts. I wondered if there is reluctance to criticize because she is a remarkable woman. Perhaps I shouldn't have written that and should remove that comment.
Why? I have seen more than a dozen times on SA forums that people speculate that OP will get off as he is white and wealthy. I can only imagine the outrage if today's verdict was delivered by a white afrikaner. And you know it's true. Anyhow, I myself dont want to turn this into a race issue because I agree with you that Masipa is well respected, remarkable and has been a champion for womens rights. I hope she knows what's she is doing and can't imagine this job has been easy..nor the days ahead.
 
Sorry, I hope I wasn't misunderstood and didn't mean to offend. Watching the trial, I felt a great sense of admiration, seeing how far SA has come from the days of Apartheid. As a woman I also greatly admire what Judge Masipa has achieved. I think that she made some errors in her verdict, and so do some legal experts. I wondered if there is reluctance to criticize because she is a remarkable woman. Perhaps I shouldn't have written that and should remove that comment.

Rosie other forum members have no right to criticize you or tell you what you can or cannot believe or express! Speak your mind freely. Some people here step over the line with thier false indignations, just ignore them or report them using the button to the bottom left of their posts. Cheers!!!
 
I think looking for the logic in this verdict is like looking for the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

There isn't logic going on; it cannot be found here.

The judge simply doesn't want to sentence OP to prison, this "national sports hero," and is finding ways to justify not doing that. It's not based on the law, it's based on her not wanting him to sit in a prison cell, or if he does, only for a short time. I suspect she'll rule in a way that keeps him out of prison. I'd like to be wrong about that, but that's where I see this thing headed right now.

But for those looking to understand the legal reasons, there aren't good ones. There's only what she is using to protect OP, which is not based on the law as written, but on what she can maneuver. A bit of a farce, actually.
 
A sincere "THANK YOU" to Websleuths's team of ace Court Reporters !! Your play-by-play, up-to-the-minute reporting was riveting... a stellar performance that is greatly appreciated !!
 
Judge Misipa clearly relied on the time line throughout and seemed to ignore anything that didn't fit, witnesses, some of the expert evidence. For me there was confusion re OP and intent. Re Putative Private Defense she finished with the question 'was there intention?' There was reasonable doubt re proof, that intention to shoot does not mean intent to kill. She continued that OP is entitled to be innocent if there is doubt. This after stating that OP is a 'fight' person re fight/flight theory. Then re CH she mentioned OP having time to think, size of toilet, insecure window, alternative means to escape etc. chose to use gun, competent with a gun/training, 4 shots etc and was therefore negligent rather than intent to kill.

BBM

The whole thing sounded contradictory to me, and made no sense at all. How does it all fit with his gun training and his passing a test on the law re gun ownership?
 
If she gives him a standard 12 years sentence for CH, which I believe she will, OP will appeal and the State will also appeal, wanting a longer sentence and his conviction for Murder. The appellate court may justly increase his conviction to Murder and/or increase his sentence(s). OP is not going to walk free from his crimes, he is locked in the SA criminal justice system and Gerrie Nel is a freaking Pit Bull!

Hope you are right… but gut feeling tells me it's not gonna go down like that.
 
Thus far, there does not seem to be any reluctance to criticize. Judges and their decisions are criticized all the time. I am not at all familiar with the history of the justice system in South Africa. Has it had a reputation for judges taking bribes? (Not that this has never happened in the U.S., but it is certainly not a common thing.)

The reality is that we rarely hear about Judges being bribed, not because it rarely happens but because they rarely get caught.
 
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