Trial Discussion Thread #56 - 14.15.10, Day 45 ~ sentencing~

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I believe Roux stated after reading the Steenkamps missive about the payments that there had been no conditions whatsoever for these from the defence's side nor for the lump sum that was offered so I really can't believe as an officer of the court Roux would have said this in front of the Judge and Nel if it were a lie and less still in front of the Steenkamp family and their lawyer since he could be reported and easily find himself disbarred for something as serious as that.

Of course such a deal would be very embarrassing and as you say cause a serious problem. My point is that there could have been more subtle ways in play. Pistorious side could have simply expressed concern about giving money to someone who may speak out against them. The Steenkamp's side could have hinted that such an agreement might 'oil the wheels'. In other words implied not openly declared.
After all it was included by somebody or it wouldn't have been in the statements about the money. Think about it. Either way the Steenkamps were badly let down.
 
We keep hearing that OP is a broken man.

I wish Nel had put Mr. Steenkamp on the stand and treated him with real kid gloves because of his health....He IS a real broken man.
 
I think it was perfectly appropriate that the Steenkamps received financial support from Oscar. It probably was some measure of relief for both parties. It was made clear from the beginning that they struggled financially and that Reeva provided some financial support to them prior to her death. It was a bit unfair to have this come out in court without warning them, which perhaps forced or encouraged the over dramatic 'blood money' statements. They should have had some warning or some input over the sudden use of a private agreement as mitigation for the man that ended their daughter's life. That said, I do believe the gesture of support was genuine and came from a place of sorrow and regret and responsibility. So I'm glad he did it, and glad they accepted. Just sorry it ended somewhat badly.
 
Was anything relevant to justice deleted that wasn't recovered through other means? That would matter very much to me. In short, if the data was tampered with to thwart justice I would think that was criminal and wrong. If it was tampered with deliberately but only to protect Oscar's privacy or reputation or the privacy and reputation of others in a way that was not relevant to the case I would take a more understanding view of it.

With respect - that is a wrong view. The right question should be "was anything deleted"?

Destruction of evidence is legally "tampering with evidence" and the purpose is irrelevant.
 
We keep hearing that OP is a broken man.

I wish Nel had put Mr. Steenkamp on the stand and treated him with real kid gloves because of his health....He IS a real broken man.

You don't have to pick. They're clearly both broken men.
 
With respect - that is a wrong view. The right question should be "was anything deleted"?

Destruction of evidence is legally "tampering with evidence" and the purpose is irrelevant.

If it's not evidence, then it can't be tampering with evidence. That was my point. We don't know nearly enough to fully assess the allegations or their impact. I can't imagine what could have been on that phone that would have made that crack in the bullet hole in the door that destroyed the state's case go away.
 
On lunch now till 1.30. Nel wanted long break.

Before we left, Nel said he had four witnesses. Judge said, 'Four!' sounding surprised and disapproving. So Nel amended it to three, then judge said she wasn't trying to influence him, and Nel amended that to 'three or four, but they won't be long Milady'.

I am not sure judge is right to make Nel feel he has to rush, really. This is too important.

When she said that she wasn't trying to influence him, Nel should have just said, there would be four.
I can't take this Judge anymore. Just imagine if it wasn't televised tho!
 
Nobody is obligated to support Oscar, but neither is Oscar or anybody close to him obligated to wordlessly tolerate or support things they view as detrimental to him, to fairness or to truth. It goes both ways.

Roux's argument was, in fact, superior. Not hard to do when the facts are on your side. The state overcharged this case and hurt Oscar as a result and I understand why his family resents that and speaks out about it in various ways, including the analogy you noted. I'm not so much 'defending' their words and actions as saying that I understand where they come from, just as I understand completely the motivations and emotions of Gina Myers and her family.

The tampering claim is alleged and untested and we don't know what happened there. We don't know whether it was malevolent or what the motivation was or whether it was accidental or deliberate. We don't know what, if any, the impact was. Was anything relevant to justice deleted that wasn't recovered through other means? That would matter very much to me. In short, if the data was tampered with to thwart justice I would think that was criminal and wrong. If it was tampered with deliberately but only to protect Oscar's privacy or reputation or the privacy and reputation of others in a way that was not relevant to the case I would take a more understanding view of it.

I see many of your points but this family have NEVER wordlessly tolerated anything negative about OP. IMO they have been disengenuous ('we are trying to save two lives here'); immature (to Nel, by an adult woman, 'you should be ashamed of yourself'); confrontational ('how do you sleep at night', muttered by, of all people, the killer); tasteless in flaunting their wealth (the cars analogy), hypocritical (all the religious tweets from OP and his brother when they certainly don't live their lives like any Christian I know) and quite possibly criminal (the phone tampering). As you say, it goes both ways, and they have never been on the back foot when it comes to getting their point across - they must run that PR woman ragged.

I don't agree with you at all re the facts of the case. You can certainly trump me there as Mapisa obviously agrees with you, but I still find her pick and mix attitude to all the evidence presented to be very disturbing, as do many South African legal analysts. I would agree that, in retropsect, a charge of dolus eventualis may have been the wiser course, but only in terms of an end result, not in terms of what i think took place that night.

Re the tampering claim, the Pistorii would have lawyers all over Barry Bateman and Mandy Weiner were it not essentially true that he took the phone and wiped stuff off it. If you want to claim he may have done that 'accidentally' then so be it, but it' an incredibly generous way of looking at it, almost to the point of head in the sand. We don't know for sure what was wiped, and it may have been harmless or merely embarrasing, but whatever it was the fact that it happened (again, they have not challenged it) is still disturbing in essence and suspicious IMO that he/they would do/condone that course of action. Very suspicious in fact.
 
No, they're a handful of people directly impacted by what their family member has done. They're allowed a full range of human emotions and they really don't owe you and the mob anything.

No, they don't owe the public anything, but they DO owe Reeva's friends and family the truth, and they don't feel they've got that yet. The public are merely lending them their support in getting that truth.
 
If it's not evidence, then it can't be tampering with evidence. That was my point. We don't know nearly enough to fully assess the allegations or their impact. I can't imagine what could have been on that phone that would have made that crack in the bullet hole in the door that destroyed the state's case go away.

I’m not sure I understand you. Phone records are generally used as "evidence" - it’s up to the court to decide what is and what is not admitted/seen as relevant evidence. That you, yourself, cannot "imagine" the relevance doesn’t really change the issue.

Altering or destroying documentary or other evidence is seen as an attempt to defeat or obstruct the administration of justice.
 
When she said that she wasn't trying to influence him, Nel should have just said, there would be four.
I can't take this Judge anymore. Just imagine if it wasn't televised tho!

IMO he should have been able to say 40 if they were all relevant to this stage of the trial. I defended Milady many many times when others were having doubts and fears but I now think that there is something wrong there as well. What, I don't know, but something. I'm inclining towards the woman assessor having more influence than she should or some issue along those lines. She never reprimanded Roux when he caused all those earlier delays with witnesses not being there and ready to go (probably because they were still frantically searching the internet or doing highly non-scientific tests) and she allowed his mitigation witnesses such as the agent to go on and on but then denies Nel the time to do his job. It's all very disappointing.
 
I see many of your points but this family have NEVER wordlessly tolerated anything negative about OP. IMO they have been disengenuous ('we are trying to save two lives here'); immature (to Nel, by an adult woman, 'you should be ashamed of yourself'); confrontational ('how do you sleep at night', muttered by, of all people, the killer); tasteless in flaunting their wealth (the cars analogy), hypocritical (all the religious tweets from OP and his brother when they certainly don't live their lives like any Christian I know) and quite possibly criminal (the phone tampering). As you say, it goes both ways, and they have never been on the back foot when it comes to getting their point across - they must run that PR woman ragged.

I don't agree with you at all re the facts of the case. You can certainly trump me there as Mapisa obviously agrees with you, but I still find her pick and mix attitude to all the evidence presented to be very disturbing, as do many South African legal analysts. I would agree that, in retropsect, a charge of dolus eventualis may have been the wiser course, but only in terms of an end result, not in terms of what i think took place that night.

Re the tampering claim, the Pistorii would have lawyers all over Barry Bateman and Mandy Weiner were it not essentially true that he took the phone and wiped stuff off it. If you want to claim he may have done that 'accidentally' then so be it, but it' an incredibly generous way of looking at it, almost to the point of head in the sand. We don't know for sure what was wiped, and it may have been harmless or merely embarrasing, but whatever it was the fact that it happened (again, they have not challenged it) is still disturbing in essence and suspicious IMO that he/they would do/condone that course of action. Very suspicious in fact.
lithgow, what a brilliant brilliant post. A thousand likes.
 
It's not crass and tasteless to defend their loved on or publicly express their opinions about people who have in their view harmed him. Anybody who values vengeance over truth and fairness is probably part of the mob. I have never heard a vengeful syllable uttered by any of the Steenkamps, so no, I don't expect they're part of the mob.

Which people have harmed Oscar or Carl Pistorius? They are managing quite nicely to do that all by themselves, no need for them to start blaming other people for their downfall, all they need to stop doing is keep killing women, that way there would be no need for others to feel the way they do about them .. it's really quite simple!
 
According to you then, Gina Myers must be one of the 'mob'. Who denied them the full range of human emotions? Did you? Did I? No. However, it is crass and tasteless for them to publicly express those opinions when they know Reeva's family might come across them. Are Reeva's family and friends also the 'mob'? I think we've seen who has dignity and restraint and it certainly isn't OP's corrupt evidence-tampering family.

Not to mention almost stepping over poor Reeva's body to get their sweaty, money grabbing mitts on the contents of a safe. How they were allowed to remove those contents or anything at all from a crime- scene is beyond me.
 
I need a bit of help please. I have been thanking posts and some have been accepted and others have taken me to report post. What am I doing wrong? TIA
 
Nobody is obligated to support Oscar, but neither is Oscar or anybody close to him obligated to wordlessly tolerate or support things they view as detrimental to him, to fairness or to truth. It goes both ways.

Roux's argument was, in fact, superior. Not hard to do when the facts are on your side. The state overcharged this case and hurt Oscar as a result and I understand why his family resents that and speaks out about it in various ways, including the analogy you noted. I'm not so much 'defending' their words and actions as saying that I understand where they come from, just as I understand completely the motivations and emotions of Gina Myers and her family.

The tampering claim is alleged and untested and we don't know what happened there. We don't know whether it was malevolent or what the motivation was or whether it was accidental or deliberate. We don't know what, if any, the impact was. Was anything relevant to justice deleted that wasn't recovered through other means? That would matter very much to me. In short, if the data was tampered with to thwart justice I would think that was criminal and wrong. If it was tampered with deliberately but only to protect Oscar's privacy or reputation or the privacy and reputation of others in a way that was not relevant to the case I would take a more understanding view of it.

Which facts were on the DT's side, exactly?
 
Not to mention almost stepping over poor Reeva's body to get their sweaty, money grabbing mitts on the contents of a safe. How they were allowed to remove those contents or anything at all from a crime- scene is beyond me.
BIB - I forgot about that for a moment. There are so many questionable things they've done that it's hard to keep on top of it all. Did Masipa ever wonder why, when OP was so very distraught after just "accidentally" killing his girlfriend, that he was lucid enough to think of USB sticks in his safe?
 
I’m not sure I understand you. Phone records are generally used as "evidence" - it’s up to the court to decide what is and what is not admitted/seen as relevant evidence. That you, yourself, cannot "imagine" the relevance doesn’t really change the issue.

Altering or destroying documentary or other evidence is seen as an attempt to defeat or obstruct the administration of justice.

If there was surfing history to rentboys.com or naked selfies of Oscar's manhood or nude pictures of Reeva or an ex or whatever, and if that was in fact completely irrelevant to the events of that evening I can understand why somebody might have wanted to make that call rather than having a court decide. I'm not claiming that it is in the purview of the criminally charged to decide what should be examined as potential evidence, I'm claiming that human nature is what it is. And if information was removed that was by some cosmic truth actually irrelevant to the facts of Reeva's death, then no harm no foul.
 
I'm inclining towards the woman assessor having more influence than she should or some issue along those lines.

Several legal experts said it was very, very unusual for the assessors to be at the sentencing - apparently it’s not the norm. It’s only Masipa’s decision.
 
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