Trial Discussion Thread #6 - 14.03.13-14, Day 9-10

[Trooper]

hope that helps, minor..

 

[Trooper]

Yes, the defense case is that the first gunshots heard by Stipp happened before the second set of bangs at 3:17 (cricket bat) heard by Burger, Johnson and Stipp. But it was not until 3:17 that Oscar broke through the door, unlocked it and got to Reeva - three minutes later he was on the phone with Netcare. When the ambulance was called by Stander at 3:28, they did not arrive until 3:42 so it's not like they could have gotten there in time to do anything if Oscar had called them at 3:18 instead of 3:20.

BBM.. how do you know that Oscar banged on the door with the cricket bat at 3.17??? not a single person so far, has testified that's what they heard..

Dr Stipp agreed that Roux was making an observation as to that theory, but he didn't agree with it. he merely acknowledged that Roux had made that proposition .

 

[Trooper]

so far, mrs VD Merwe, Mrs Burger, Mr Johnson, and Dr Still have been the ear witnesses.

that's 4 people woken up , argumentative voices, wailing screaming, shots..

but not one. even obliquely has not only stated they were not woken up by a cricket bat sounds , but that it was gunshot sounds.

 

[Pisto_lius]

I think, you all know who this woman is

February 17 2013

‘I saw Reeva die’

A young friend of murder accused Oscar Pistorius, called to his house the night the Paralympian shot his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, has told how she opened the door to see him carrying Steenkamp down the stairs, her body drenched in blood.

The young woman, who cannot be named, lives with her parents in the same complex, Silver Woods in Pretoria. She got the call after 3am on Thursday, she told police this week in a sworn statement.

Pistorius asked her to come to his home immediately. He was frantic. Something had gone horribly wrong. There had been a shooting.

She rushed over, opening the door of his home at exactly 3.20am on Valentine’s morning – and saw Pistorius carry Steenkamp down the stairs, her body drenched in blood.

[....]

The young woman, a lawyer, told police she and Pistorius did everything they could to save Steenkamp’s life.

[....)

When the paramedics arrived a short while later, she said she and Pistorius stepped aside. Steenkamp was pronounced dead a short while later.

The young woman had asked her father to call an ambulance, but it remains unclear whether they were also called by neighbours, who alerted the complex’s security guards and police to the gunshots they heard just after 3am.

Read more: http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UyJftT95OSp

No mention of Dr Stipp.... "WE are the heroes !".... "She died in my arms".... "But, please, let the media out !"....
.
.

 

[Trooper]

I think, you all know who this woman is





No mention of Dr Stipp.... "WE are the heroes !"..... "She died in my arms"..... "But, please, let the media out !".....
.
.

not only Dr Stipp but Pieter Baba as well !!. and the 2nd patrol guard, Jacob. heh..

oddly, everyone has a different story as to when Reeva died. some have 3 or four stories...

Oscar says.. she died coming down the stairs.

Clarice Standar.. ( the woman in Pistos story, ) says here, 'she died in MY arms!!

Stipp says , going by the condition of her eyes she was dead, and dead for a few minutes by the time he got there..

Oscar chimes in again to the paramedic and says she died 4 minutes ago!!!..20 minutes after Stipp has been and gone.

news reporters, ey>??

 

[Trooper]

I. using logic and rationale,am going with Dr Stipps conclusion..

on the basis that he is a 12 year graduate of Medical School, a 6 year post graduate specializing in Radiology, and 15 years practice at his chosen field in a hospital environment..

Stacked up against anyone else at that house on the night, he comes up trumps in the 'death time' stakes..

 

[Pisto_lius]

'“He looked rattled,” said the medic,'

I bet he did.. for sure..


He was 'distraught' when Dr Stipp arrived some considerable time before this, ( Dr Stipp had actually left the premises and gone home before the paramedics arrived.). he found no signs of life on Reeva.. he estimated roughly she had been dead for a few minutes based on the condition of her eyes..

Eyes dry, cornea cloudy = more than only *a few minutes*.....

 

[Trooper]

So in that case Roux alleges the shots were fired even earlier? That means Reeva spent even more time gravely injured before an ambulance was called.

it wouldn't surprise me in the least, that at some stage Roux proposes, puts forward a suggestion, or invites a witness to consider the possibility that Oscar not only can but does scream like a woman, and can also scream like a woman AND a man at the same time while shooting , but can imitate both the sounds of gunshot and cricket bat whacks.


if ever those guard dogs get called up to give evidence.. its highly likely that Oscar can bark like a guard dog, too.

 

[Rumpole]

I see some confusion over which came first... the Baba or the Pistorius

From Roux's cross examination of Baba and the Security land-line phone records (Submitted into evidence, but not available to the public)

3:21:33AM
Oscar calls security - only crying is heard

3:22:05 AM
Baba PHONED Pistorius BACK and Pistorius indicated that he was fine

I hope that clarifies it.

OP called first.

 

[Trooper]

I think, you all know who this woman is


The young woman, a lawyer, told police she and Pistorius did everything they could to save Steenkamp’s life.

[....)

When the paramedics arrived a short while later, she said she and Pistorius stepped aside. Steenkamp was pronounced dead a short while later.

No mention of Dr Stipp.... "WE are the heroes !".... "She died in my arms".... "But, please, let the media out !"....
.
.

BBM'

by the time Stipp got there, Oscar was on his knees, with his fingers down Reevas throat, his other hand on her bloodied groin.. Stipp had to unclench Reevas jaw to remove Oscars fingers.. Clarice was directing some sort of press embargo

Roux made an interjection during Von Rensburgs testimony yesterday.. Rensberg says this Clarice person was talking to Oscar, and Roux leaps to his feet and says. 'she was COMFORTING HIM!'..

what's the difference?

 

[Pisto_lius]

not only Dr Stipp but Pieter Baba as well !!. and the 2nd patrol guard, Jacob. heh..

oddly, everyone has a different story as to when Reeva died. some have 3 or four stories...

Oscar says.. she died coming down the stairs.

BIB 1 - Clarice Standar.. ( the woman in Pistos story, ) says here, 'she died in MY arms!!

Stipp says , going by the condition of her eyes she was dead, and dead for a few minutes by the time he got there..

Oscar chimes in again to the paramedic and says BIB 2 - she died 4 minutes ago!!!..20 minutes after Stipp has been and gone.

news reporters, ey>??

You're right - I forgot Baba + Jacob. Sorry

BIB 1 - No, it was OP who said (in his affidavit)

I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms. I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva.

BIB 2 - Sorry, but in this case I'm picky : 3 (three) minutes ago....
.
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[Trooper]

I see some confusion over which came first... the Baba or the Pistorius

From Roux's cross examination of Baba and the Security land-line phone records (Submitted into evidence, but not available to the public)

3:21:33AM
Oscar calls security - only crying is heard

3:22:05 AM
Baba PHONED Pistorius BACK and Pistorius indicated that he was fine

I hope that clarifies it.

OP called first.

rumpole.. with respect.. that timeline is Roux suggestion to the witness.. Pieter Baba.. the witness vehemently rejected the sequence.. as he reasonably pointed out.. he called Oscar on the direction of Dr Stipp.. who's call he took first, .... Stipp says.. its over in that direction.. so Baba calls Oscars number.. Oscar says, security , everythings fine..

It was clearly stated.. Roux DID try this sequence on to the witness.. I listened and watched it.. it was certainly broadcast, and you can get a copy of this.. there was no embargo on Baba's testimony, at all. the entire testimony was broadcast, on TV and on radio..

I hope that helps you understand and rectifies your error, there..

 

[Rumpole]

Roux was quoting from phone records with copies in front of judge and assessors.

Nel did not object.

The witness testimony was impeached... proved to be wrong.

The times on Security phone records also matched the times on Pistorius phone record.

TWO independent sets of phone records TRUMP a witness memory from a year ago.

 

[Trooper]

it is, of course, perfectly understandable that Roux knows this sequence as to whom rang who first, to be difficult.. he spent a lot of time on it, many suggestions were made to Baba to consider, many theories were put forward by Roux many alternative possibilities... but Baba had no way of turning back the clock and making what he heard, and did, fit any of the Roux theories ( Under his clients instruction ) ..

in the end,, the judge will decide on that matter. .. but its a huge error to confuse actual fact with a defence lawyers theory.. who has the biggest stake here in lying?? Oscar or Baba?? what does Baba gain from lying about it??

I can only urge you to listen to the testimony of Baba in full. of course, your conclusions are your business.. but it is in error to state the ROUX version as the definitive one.

 

[Trooper]

if you listen to the testimony, you will find that even Roux gave up trying out this theory.. Baba was in the witness box for an afternoon and a morning. it is extraordinarily interesting testimony.. quite riveting.

 

[Trooper]

Nel has no reason or motive to object to a theory.. he allows the witness, the state witness to reject a theory and re state his own facts of the matter.. that's what a witness does.

Why waste an objection on this? its not as if Baba has to convince a jury.. Objections from either side are very very minimal in a judge only trial. the judge, thedefence, the prosecutor all know the law, all know the procedure..

Roux , when he DID go a bit overboard in stating a theory as a fact, was caught up with an objection by Nel, and was reminded and reprimanded to distinguish at all times, to a witness, before he asks the question as to whether he is proposing a theory or stating facts as stipulated before the trial. Roux has had a few forgetful moments on this issue, but he takes his lumps and moves on.. he is interesting to watch and listen to.

 

[minor4th]

I see some confusion over which came first... the Baba or the Pistorius

From Roux's cross examination of Baba and the Security land-line phone records (Submitted into evidence, but not available to the public)

3:21:33AM
Oscar calls security - only crying is heard

3:22:05 AM
Baba PHONED Pistorius BACK and Pistorius indicated that he was fine

I hope that clarifies it.

OP called first.

That's correct.

 

[Trooper]

Roux was quoting from phone records with copies in front of judge and assessors.

Nel did not object.

The witness testimony was impeached... proved to be wrong.

The times on Security phone records also matched the times on Pistorius phone record.

TWO independent sets of phone records TRUMP a witness memory from a year ago.

impeached?? was that a direction from Judge Masipa?? if so, where?? I merely enquire..

 

[Trooper]

I cant find anywhere where Judge Masipa has ruled Pieter Baba's testimony under impeachment..

be so kind as to direct me to your source.. I have gone thru the South African Jurisprudence site, but no mention of it there.. an impeachment of a witness is always gazetted immediately, maybe I am spelling Pieter Baba's name incorrectly??

 

[Rumpole]

"Impeached" is descriptive... how you describe the situation where a witness is "banged to rights" shown to be wrong in what they testify to.

The sequence of calls between OP phone and Security phone is not in dispute. It is clearly shown in two independent sets of phone records.. accepted into evidence and accepted as a true record.