Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Trail day 1 when Reeva's mom June Steenkamp was there and he didn't even look at her face..
I wonder what was so laughabe for OP on that day ?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-updates-3201648

 

[Interested Bystander]

Hold on a second, according to that article further character witness's are also lined up to testify against him including "the estate manager who he said he called first".
Really???.

I don't think character witnesses, as such, are permitted in SA. I assume he will be an ordinary witness who will explain the situation as he saw it. Perhaps poor reporting.

 

[Val1]

This magazine stand didn't exist in the leaked photos of the toilet last year ?

View attachment 41920

This pic looks like one from a cell phone(plus the magazine rack has obviously been put close to the toilet for the pic) and if you look closely in the other pic, you can just see the edge of the magazine rack tucked in the corner by the door.

 

[Val1]

Trail day 1 when Reeva's mom June Steenkamp was there and he didn't even look at her face..
I wonder what was so laughabe for OP on that day ?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-updates-3201648

View attachment 41944

Perhaps his new gf was there that day?

 

[Interested Bystander]

As this trial has progressed and witnesses have come forward reporting a woman screaming, and arguing, Pistorius has appeared more guilty by the day, for all of Roux's attempts to argue his innocence. And I have recently seen people positing that Pistorius may have anything from narcissistic disorder to dysfunctional judgement disorder! I have only noticed this coming up as the trial has progressed and Pistorius's story looks completely shattered.

Almost as if a disorder of some kind is a last minute desperate attempt to get some leniency.

Pistorius deserves no leniency, he has had far too much already, with firing guns in public places, and threatening people and causing injury to at least one other woman, a certain Cassidy Taylor Memmory.

The time for leniency has long gone. He needs locking up for the maximum time allowed for premeditated murder, if found guilty.

Roux, I put it to you, if you have a daughter, would you want your daughter to date Oscar Pistorius?

I personally don't think OP has a disorder but I do think Roux is desperate and may throw something to this effect in his argument.

 

[Estelle]

It does not take rocket science to figure out after seeing the bullet holes in the door for the first time two days ago in court that the four bullets holes in the door are pointing straight forward into the door and not angling downwards as claimed by Botha in his testimony at the BH to substantiate his theory that OP was wearing his prosthetics when he fired the shots. Why did Rensburg not overrule his subordinate Botha and save the SA police from this unwarranted disaster.

Sure, he informed OP that he is a suspect, read him his rights but he has not testified so far if OP informed him that he had engaged the services of an attorney. As a competent Commander it was his duty to probe further during preliminary investigation, interrogated him and asked him though questions right away.

Did VR ask OP to surrender the phone he used to communicate with anybody after the shooting?
Did VR take position of the gun and asked OP whether there were any more weapons and bullets located in the home?
Did he ask OP if he called the police?
Did he ask OP what prevented him from calling the Police that was his legal and moral duty, because he had all the time in the world to call up his friend’s, relatives and immediately engaged the services of an attorney. This should have been the biggest red flag in VR’s mind a senior cop with 25 years experience regarding OP’s intruder theory.
Did he ask OP if he had Informed Reeva’s family about her accidental death and if not, Why?
Did VR ask OP how many bullets did he fire, and why there are four holes in the door?
Did VR ask OP why did he not hear Reeva screaming out in pain?
Did VR ask OP why his hands and face were clean of blood unlike the rest of his body?
Did VR ask OP who gave him the permission to wash his hands and face?
Did VR ask OP who gave him the permission to break open the toilet door and remove Reeva’s body? The possibility of her having survived four bullets in such a confined area was ruled out,as OP claimed she never responded, this should have made VR most suspicious that OP had deliberately disturbed the crime scene with ulterior motives.
Did VR ask OP ifhe had any medical training?
Did VR ask OP if any person known to him had visited the crime scene?

Did VR ask OP for the origin of the white blankets and black garbage bags that were used to bandage Reeva’s wounds? This question is critical because Clarice Stander brought the towels from the clothes cabinets located in the corridor leading to the Crime scene. Who authorized this lawyer to enter the crime scene? In court Roux is picking holes in VR’s statement that only he and Botha from the police toured the crime scene together, by referring to statements given by other policemen.

If OP would have refused to cooperate on the advice of his attorney, VR should have arrested him in the kitchen itself, and not wait for his subordinate HB to order him to make the arrest in the garage.

The answers to the above questions overwhelmingly proves, that VR did not understand and follow elementary procedures, that had to be strictly followed at any homicide crime scene, he willfully disregarded the reputation and celebrity status of his ‘suspect’ treated him with kid gloves to his own peril that eventually forced him to resign from the police force in disgrace.

Yes I think VR was handling him with kid gloves and being extra cautious. When VR said he loves sport and is going to be a Sports Coach now, I think he was giving the message the he had hoped against hope that he did not have to charge OP and he had probably been a fan of OP.

I guess they wanted to question OP at the police station but I have an idea that he refused to answer the type of questions you have above and simply said he would be presenting his Affidavit at the Bail Hearing so that he would not incriminate himself. Then his lawyers visited him at the police station to manufacture his Affidavit.

So my gut feeling is that OP has never been questioned before. The MSM thinks he will take the stand so that will the the most interesting day of this trial for me.

 

[Val1]

The gun was probably fully loaded already, so ammo on the right side may be a nonissue. OP can say he heard the noise, scampered around to the left side of the bed where the gun (and holster) lay, etc.

My point is that if I remember correctly, Roux had made a big deal of it that OP was sleeping on the right side of the bed because of his shoulder injury(during his cross with the ex-gf) and if true, then there's no excuse in the world to explain why he didn't notice RS wasn't in bed when he went to grab his gun from the holster from the left side.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I wonder if RS used to sleep in the guest bedroom but I believe Martin Rooney (UK athlete) had stayed there for a month in January. But I do not think RS went to bed at all that night. However, it seems strange that her things were there beside the bed and in the bathroom. RS must have been prepared in case she decided to stay there as it seems she had no intention of doing so earlier.

I wonder if they were all actually in the house or in the garage depending on the times they arrived.

It will be interesting to hear from Clarice Stander and learn more about what Carl and Oldwage were doing in the kitchen. OP seemed more concerned about what he wanted to get out of his safe than about Reeva.

You can add Justin Divaris and Sam to the list of people who were there although they arrived later and spoke to OP in the garage.

I read that she had also stayed the previous two nights.. I will see if I can find the article.

 

[Interested Bystander]

With injuries to head, right arm, and right hip, how does blood end up on floor like this and how does blood end up in toilet leaving this pattern?

I think this pattern is due to scale deposits that are left from the water feed holes in the rim of the toilet basin. Where there is scale the blood will stick, where there isn't scale the blood will drain into the water.

 

[Estelle]

I personally don't think OP has a disorder but I do think Roux is desperate and may throw something to this effect in his argument.

From what we know about OP, he has never been diagnosed with psychological or psychiatric problems.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not a mental illness and is no excuse for murder. Narcissism is close to sociopathy, they go hand in hand Loving ones self,and being incapable of empathy for others are two tandem traits.Oscar was the only important human in his life

If he wanted to claim diminished responsibility, shouldn't he have done it at the beginning?

I suggest you read this as I found it interesting.

http://www.jaapl.org/

 

[canny]

Yes I think VR was handling him with kid gloves and being extra cautious. When VR said he loves sport and is going to be a Sports Coach now, I think he was giving the message the he had hoped against hope that he did not have to charge OP and he had probably been a fan of OP.

I guess they wanted to question OP at the police station but I have an idea that he refused to answer the type of questions you have above and simply said he would be presenting his Affidavit at the Bail Hearing so that he would not incriminate himself. Then his lawyers visited him at the police station to manufacture his Affidavit.

So my gut feeling is that OP has never been questioned before. The MSM thinks he will take the stand so that will the the most interesting day of this trial for me.

The moment he informed the police that on the advice of his lawyer to protect his rights he was unable to answer any of their questions and give any written statement, the police ability to interrogate him ended. This is no way prevented VR from arrested him on the spot. The prosecution till date has only his affidavit as his version of the events that night that lead him to kill Reeva.His father arrived at his home along with his lawyer,they conveniently forgot to inform Reeva's parents leaving it to Botha to inform them about the accident.

 

[Estelle]

My point is that if I remember correctly, Roux had made a big deal of it that OP was sleeping on the right side of the bed because of his shoulder injury(during his cross with the ex-gf) and if true, then there's no excuse in the world to explain why he didn't notice RS wasn't in bed when he went to grab his gun from the holster from the left side.

I read that she had also stayed the previous two nights.. I will see if I can find the article.

I have heard that RS was there for two nights but she may not have stayed the whole night as Gina Myers said she usually went home and her father met RS half way.

 

[Really?]

The doctor was awakened by "gun shots" then heard intermixed woman screaming and male yelling then another round of "gun shots". The others didn't hear fist set of "gun shots" but heard the screaming and last set of "gun shots"- 4 shots with pause btwn 1st & 2nd shots. They all insist it was gun shots...and in rapid succession - like a gun, not a bat.

Consequntly, I have to think the latter 4 shots was the gun. In regards to first "gun shots" heard only ny doctor - either it was OP shooting bedroom door - and maybe there are more bullet holes police never found- Or did he shoot air gun to scare her before he used real bullets? Or did he use bat first to break door so he could see her and shoot so precisely?

Why do we have to think they heard him breaking down door? Do you hear your neighbors doing home repairs- hammering nail in wall? Blasting the TV movie? Dropping 100 pound weight on ground? Vacuuming? Especially if air conditioning or loud fan on?

Maybe they all did hear gun shots, screaming but not the door breaking down?

BBM.....perhaps this can explain the casing found in the wardrobe hallway.......and the other casings found further in the bathroom...hhmmm

 

[Estelle]

BBM.....perhaps this can explain the casing found in the wardrobe hallway.......and the other casings found further in the bathroom...hhmmm

The problem I have with the gunshots. There are obviously four bullets in the toilet door, one cartridge in the hallway leading to the bathroom and a hole in the main bedroom door.

Does that make 6 or 5 or 4? Dr Stipp said he heard between 5 and 6 shots, I think.

Also, Vermuelen said he thinks the toilet door was struck only TWICE with the cricket bat!

IMO Roux theory cannot be true.

 

[canny]

With injuries to head, right arm, and right hip, how does blood end up on floor like this and how does blood end up in toilet leaving this pattern?

Her head hit the bowl with the impact of the fourth bullet that struck her on the right side of her skull above her ear, it exited from the left side.The post postmortem reports that her skull was fractured The streaks of thick blood separated by an inch has to be from her blood soaked hair sticking to the bowl leaving behind its distinctive blood trail pattern. Her head must have been in this position for a few seconds before if fell on the floor.

 

[Interested Bystander]

From what we know about OP, he has never been diagnosed with psychological or psychiatric problems.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not a mental illness and is no excuse for murder. Narcissism is close to sociopathy, they go hand in hand Loving ones self,and being incapable of empathy for others are two tandem traits.Oscar was the only important human in his life

If he wanted to claim diminished responsibility, shouldn't he have done it at the beginning?

I suggest you read this as I found it interesting.

http://www.jaapl.org/

Thanks for the link but my background is medical and I am very aware of personality disorders. Disorder was perhaps the incorrect word to use. My point leans more to whether or not his behaviour was different from that expected from a "normal person". I am sure you will have read about the possibility that Roux could claim that OP's judgement, due to his physical condition, may be impaired. It is this I am referring to.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Some other facts


- When van Rensburg entered the 2nd spare bedroom, he saw signs that someone had been staying in there - a toothbrush/toothpaste, other non-specific signs (he called it visibility) that someone had been using that en suite bedroom.

I assume OP used this bedroom when he went upstairs to wash his hands and face (according to Botha). He couldn't use the crime scene bathroom for this.

--------------------

- Reeva's dead body (over and over with blood and brain tissues) lay on the floor of the entrance hall since about 03:20 till a coroner’s van leaves the Silver Woods estate with her dead body at about 08:35....

* OP's brother Carl
* his sister Aimee
* maybe his father Henke (?)
* Kenny Oldwage
* Johan and Clarice Stander

they all were in the house.... but no one cared about Reeva.... it seems no one was horrified about what happened....

* OP left his dead girlfriend and went upstairs only minutes (or seconds) after Dr Stipp told him there is nothing he could do for Reeva...

* Clarice Stander was busy to search for towels (and for this she went upstairs into the crime scene)....

* OP's brother Carl and lawyer Kenny Oldwage were more interested to get access to documents and an USB stick from a locked safe in the kitchen...

* OP's sister Aimee was worried about OP's watches….

They all do not give a damn about Reeva…. :banghead:



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I'll be back later....
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Thank you for your many posts! Because I'm always logged out, I'm not able to click my "Thanks".

Seems as OP could be satisfied with the statement "dead" from Dr. Stipp and now hadn't to have fear for one single fateful word out of Reeva's mouth. OP could take his fingers out of her throat and now think of what to do next.

 

[weeeva]

He doesn't have "no legs", he has legs that have been amputated below the knee on which he wears prostheses. Without these, he's only an inch or two shorter than I am.
Unlike someone who has suffered the loss of limbs late in life and needed to learn to adapt and walk with false lower limbs, he has lived with his condition from birth. He has known nothing else and walks quite ably on the stumps of his legs, indeed in his autobiography it says that at school he could run faster on his stumps than the other kids could on full legs. The running blades are only worn for competitive sport, by the way.

OK. He has legs, sorry for getting a bit carried away and saying he had no legs. I still regard him as a disabled person whether he can manage to get around on his stumps or not. He is disadvantaged by his stumps and lack of height without his prostheses. He has admitted, previous to this incident that the only time he feels vulnerable is at night in bed without his prostheses. For me that is enough evidence to show me how vulnerable he actually feels. I would not know if he mentioned this in his autobiography. Yes I do know that his blades are for running races.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

At last thread I didn't understand the problem with OP's clothing and Baba's question regarding this.

Today I again want to ask:
OP was dressed with a bloodied t-shirt. When he already was sitting in the garage (after being in the kitchen), he was dressed with it. At his own arriving, Botha saw him like this. Why there are photos with free upper body, shown at court? And again: why asked Baba (he must have seen OP with shirt).

Please explain it to an illogical person, thanks! :blushing:

 

[Really?]

At last thread I didn't understand the problem with OP's clothing and Baba's question regarding this.

Today I again want to ask:
OP was dressed with a bloodied t-shirt. When he already was sitting in the garage (after being in the kitchen), he was dressed with it. At his own arriving, Botha saw him like this. Why there are photos with free upper body, shown at court? And again: why asked Baba (he must have seen OP with shirt).

Please explain it to an illogical person, thanks!

Maybe they had him remove his shirt to photograph scratches or blood patterns or lack of both???i dunno