Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[weeeva]

I'm all for letting the trial tell the story, I don't disagree on that.

I just want to point out some of the items that you mentioned above... bolded by me.

You say "the fact" that an intruder was in the toilet. This is not fact. There was in fact no intruder.

There was a door in between them. This is a huge point. Oscar never saw an intruder, an intruder did not utter a word, he did not see a weapon... the intruder was a figment of his imagination. There was in fact no provocation because hearing a noise does not constitute provocation. The fact that there was a closed door in between them is exactly the reason why he shouldn't have shot... he should have fled. You cannot just shoot at every random noise you hear.



Firing one or two shots does not guarantee incapacitation. So right there you agree that he intended to kill.

And finally your last very telling point... "was OP to hang around to wait to see if the intruder had a gun?"... EXACTLY. He should not have. He should have located Reeva and exited the bedroom!!!

Please know that I do understand the grave concerns in SA over violent break ins, and have tremendous empathy for the residents there. But OP did not live in an unsecure area. He was in a very secure home, with private estate security, a security alarm (according to Batha)... he had resources that most do not. If he was living in a shack with no security then perhaps I could understand this story... perhaps.

I am speaking from the point of view that OP really did believe that it was an intruder. If it was the case that he genuinely believed an intruder was in his house that WAS provocation and he was in a life threatening situation. People in life threatening situations go into survival mode, as I said before Fight or Flight. It is in built in all of us and we don't really have a choice when it comes to survival. I can understand if that is what happened, if he is telling the truth. Yes he was living in a far safer environment than most people in SA, but in the heat of the moment in a life threatening situation who knows what we would do?
Perhaps he WAS shooting to kill an intruder. In a situation like that, him believing an armed man may be behind that door, then who knows what any one of us would do. Kill or be killed?
I just can't help feeling sorry for him. Maybe I'm nuts or something.
Anyway maybe next week I will have a change of heart when more evidence comes to light.

 

[weeeva]

For Gods sake no one "wants" crimes like this to occur!

I often wonder what standard of proof is required for some.

Fortunately all a jury requires is "beyond reasonable doubt".

OP murdered someone that night.

Reeva or a "burglar", whoever it was was clearly unarmed themselves and cowering helplessly in a toilet.

Was the burglar intent on stealing toilet paper?

He shot Whoever intentionally with no restraint.

That's murder, where I live.

I normally require a lot of proof. But so far as I know no proof has yet come to light that OP knew it was Reeva in the toilet.
If he believed it was a burglar how would he know that the burglar was unarmed?
There is no jury in this trial just a judge.

 

[Cherwell]

OK. I was not talking in legal terms. What I mean is what if he is telling the truth?
What was he supposed to do if there was in fact an intruder in his home. Fight or Flight?
He has no legs, so unless he had his running blades on he wouldn't get very far if he decided on Flight. We all know that SA is a dangerous place to live. He seems to have been especially fearful as his friends have seen him on at least 2 occasions reacting to what he thought was an intruder. The man has no legs, it is natural that he would feel more vulnerable than an able bodied person. He is gun happy which is wrong, but does it mean that he deliberately killed Reeva?
I just can't understand why most people WANT him to be guilty of murder. Why would people want that?

He doesn't have "no legs", he has legs that have been amputated below the knee on which he wears prostheses. Without these, he's only an inch or two shorter than I am.
Unlike someone who has suffered the loss of limbs late in life and needed to learn to adapt and walk with false lower limbs, he has lived with his condition from birth. He has known nothing else and walks quite ably on the stumps of his legs, indeed in his autobiography it says that at school he could run faster on his stumps than the other kids could on full legs. The running blades are only worn for competitive sport, by the way.

 

[foxbluff]

LOL

Here is the trial statement he gave in which was different from his Bail Hearing Statement. I can only find it within a Newspaper report but I am sure it must be somewhere as a pdf or similar. Anyway, you can find it here but I cannot guarantee it is complete. What we really need is the statement Olwage read on OP's behalf.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-first-morning

It is as I thought - not verbatim. Where it says Reeva woke up, OP says he spoke to her. So the reporting is a bit off.

I will keep looking for the original, unless someone posts it before I get there.

BBM - Ohhh my goodness... generally, that doesn't look good for the perp..

My time onbrd today might have gotten off to a rough start, but now it's beginning to feel like my birthday. Such a wealth of interesting printouts to go to bed with tonight. Thank you again, Interested Bystander!

 

[lisasalinger]

I am speaking from the point of view that OP really did believe that it was an intruder. If it was the case that he genuinely believed an intruder was in his house that WAS provocation and he was in a life threatening situation. People in life threatening situations go into survival mode, as I said before Fight or Flight. It is in built in all of us and we don't really have a choice when it comes to survival. I can understand if that is what happened, if he is telling the truth. Yes he was living in a far safer environment than most people in SA, but in the heat of the moment in a life threatening situation who knows what we would do?
Perhaps he WAS shooting to kill an intruder. In a situation like that, him believing an armed man may be behind that door, then who knows what any one of us would do. Kill or be killed?
I just can't help feeling sorry for him. Maybe I'm nuts or something.
Anyway maybe next week I will have a change of heart when more evidence comes to light.

I suspect that we won't be able to find a middle ground here because I do not believe it is reasonable to kill an unknown person hiding behind a locked door.

But more importantly, the law requires that your life be threatened in order for you to kill. Merely hearing a noise or seeing a window open, especially when you are sharing your room with a girlfriend, does not constitute your life being threatened. This is not my opinion, it is law. He did not act according to law.

 

[lisasalinger]

I normally require a lot of proof. But so far as I know no proof has yet come to light that OP knew it was Reeva in the toilet.
If he believed it was a burglar how would he know that the burglar was unarmed?
There is no jury in this trial just a judge.

BBM

Four separate ear witnesses heard a woman screaming before the gunshots. A few of them heard a woman screaming during the gunshots. Dr. Stipp saw the bathroom light on immediately after the gunshots (alluding to the possibility that it was on all along).

If we believe these witnesses, the only woman that was in the house at the time, Reeva, was obviously screaming for a reason and Oscar would have obviously heard it. Which means he knew she was in the bathroom.

This is the proof that the State is beginning to build.

Now it certainly is your prerogative to not believe any witnesses. And the Defense would like everyone to believe that the female screaming was actually Oscar.

 

[katydid23]

I normally require a lot of proof. But so far as I know no proof has yet come to light that OP knew it was Reeva in the toilet.
If he believed it was a burglar how would he know that the burglar was unarmed?
There is no jury in this trial just a judge.

Why didnt he look to see if she was still in bed before he fired into the toilet?

He had to go under neath the bed to grab his gun. Wouldn't that have been a convenient time to check if his girlfriend was in bed or in the bathroom going pee?

 

[delilah]

I have some questions and comments. Any answers or thoughts would be gratefully received.

If witnesses claimed they heard gunshots and the screams of a woman, why did they not then hear the sound of OP breaking down the toilet door? The prosecution seem to accept RS was shot through the toilet door ie BEFORE OP broke the door in.

Pieter Baba claimed he called OP first that night. Pistorius said he called Baba first. Why make such a deal of this before producing the phone records as evidence? They will show whether Baba or OP is telling the truth about this.

Did OP have good cause to be paranoid about a break in? How many breakins had there been in his gated community in the previous 12 months? How often had he been burgled/threatened?

Why did OP go upstairs after Dr Stipp attended to RS? Did he say anything about this in his statement for the BH?

Does OP claim the light was off in the toilet? If so, why wd RS have gone in, locked the door and not switched on the light? And why wd she have locked the door?

If OP is so paranoid he locks his bedroom door and keeps a gun by his bed, why hadn't he secured the bathroom window and got contractors to remove ladders from outside his property?

How long does OP take to put on his prosthetic legs?

 

[weeeva]

BBM - The point is that OP was under no immediate threat. The alleged intruder was safely shut away in a small toilet, so OP held all the cards. As for whether OP should have waited to see if the intruder had a gun, who do you think was in the better position here? The intruder in a confined space or OP on the outside with his gun? The intruder couldn't hide from the gunshots, and OP felt safe enough to stand opposite the door and shoot through it without seeming concerned that he himself could have been shot.

Plus, just because he thought there was an intruder in his toilet didn't give him the right to fire 4 shots through it knowing he would without doubt kill whoever was on the other side. I understand what you say about how some people just want him to be guilty for the hell of it, but by the same token, I think some people just want to ignore all logic and find any way of justifying what are unjustifiable actions. He was in no imminent danger and had no reason to shoot to kill.

I agree that some people just want to ignore all logic, but I am not one of them. As far as I can see there has been no proof that he knew it was Reeva behind that door. He also did not know that he wasn't in imminent danger, if he thought it was a burglar.

 

[curiousjo]

The doctor was awakened by "gun shots" then heard intermixed woman screaming and male yelling then another round of "gun shots". The others didn't hear fist set of "gun shots" but heard the screaming and last set of "gun shots"- 4 shots with pause btwn 1st & 2nd shots. They all insist it was gun shots...and in rapid succession - like a gun, not a bat.

Consequntly, I have to think the latter 4 shots was the gun. In regards to first "gun shots" heard only ny doctor - either it was OP shooting bedroom door - and maybe there are more bullet holes police never found- Or did he shoot air gun to scare her before he used real bullets? Or did he use bat first to break door so he could see her and shoot so precisely?

Why do we have to think they heard him breaking down door? Do you hear your neighbors doing home repairs- hammering nail in wall? Blasting the TV movie? Dropping 100 pound weight on ground? Vacuuming? Especially if air conditioning or loud fan on?

Maybe they all did hear gun shots, screaming but not the door breaking down?

 

[Sleuthv]

BBM - The point is that OP was under no immediate threat. The alleged intruder was safely shut away in a small toilet, so OP held all the cards. As for whether OP should have waited to see if the intruder had a gun, who do you think was in the better position here? The intruder in a confined space or OP on the outside with his gun? The intruder couldn't hide from the gunshots, and OP felt safe enough to stand opposite the door and shoot through it without seeming concerned that he himself could have been shot.

He was in no imminent danger and had no reason to shoot to kill.

I thought about the same ...some one is trying to get into my front door....I as Oscar claims yell 'get out of my house' then WHAT...did he wait to hear a window open and then wait for a second sound of an advancing danger...no he shoots into a blind door...not waiting to hear either the intruder or Reeva.

Even if he did not know it was Reeva he stilled did not prove his life was in danger...he just proved he shots first asks ??? later.

 

[Sleuthv]

Question --- how do we know OP was watching *advertiser censored* on his cell? I though the cell was locked and in Apple's headquarters. Or has it been unlocked and logged in as evidence?

THey both had iphones and blackberries.

 

[soozieqtips]

I agree that some people just want to ignore all logic, but I am not one of them. As far as I can see there has been no proof that he knew it was Reeva behind that door. He also did not know that he wasn't in imminent danger, if he thought it was a burglar.

BBM - But he did know he wasn't in imminent danger as soon as he knew the 'intruder' was shut inside a confined area. OP was the one aiming the gun at the door, so the only person in danger was the one behind the door. As posted earlier, OP didn't act within the law.The law is there to protect people from being shot and killed just because the shooter 'thought' they heard something. The imaginary intruder was behind a door in a separate room, so OP cannot claim his life was in danger, because as he started shooting through the door, it most certainly was not. And he used bullets designed to inflict maximum damage. Reckless beyond belief.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

This magazine stand didn't exist in the leaked photos of the toilet last year ?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Here is the leaked photo.. I don't know what to make of it though.. Could be taken as evidence I guess..

 

[Mystymiss]

I agree that some people just want to ignore all logic, but I am not one of them. As far as I can see there has been no proof that he knew it was Reeva behind that door. He also did not know that he wasn't in imminent danger, if he thought it was a burglar.

Gees. NO excuses! So OP goes out to the balcony to get the fans ( I'm pretty sure that would make some noise) but yet he hears the sliding window in the toilet room opening??? ( mind you the door to this room was closed and locked) He must have super hearing but of course he didn't hear any one climbing on the ladder leaning against the house!! while he was shooting he didn't hear Reevas screams! Doesn't make sense..

 

[FrancesB]

I am half expecting Roux to produce a psychological analysis to say that he has emotional problems - goes to whether he can be judged as "normal" in the sense that would a normal person have committed this crime.

As this trial has progressed and witnesses have come forward reporting a woman screaming, and arguing, Pistorius has appeared more guilty by the day, for all of Roux's attempts to argue his innocence. And I have recently seen people positing that Pistorius may have anything from narcissistic disorder to dysfunctional judgement disorder! I have only noticed this coming up as the trial has progressed and Pistorius's story looks completely shattered.

Almost as if a disorder of some kind is a last minute desperate attempt to get some leniency.

Pistorius deserves no leniency, he has had far too much already, with firing guns in public places, and threatening people and causing injury to at least one other woman, a certain Cassidy Taylor Memmory.

The time for leniency has long gone. He needs locking up for the maximum time allowed for premeditated murder, if found guilty.

Roux, I put it to you, if you have a daughter, would you want your daughter to date Oscar Pistorius?

 

[Feynman]

Gees. NO excuses! So OP goes out to the balcony to get the fans ( I'm pretty sure that would make some noise) but yet he hears the sliding window in the toilet room opening??? ( mind you the door to this room was closed and locked) He must have super hearing but of course he didn't hear any one climbing on the ladder leaning against the house!! while he was shooting he didn't hear Reevas screams! Doesn't make sense..

No, he hears the sliding window in the BATHROOM opening (and he can say he heard this after the fans were in, blinds closed, etc)

 

[Feynman]

The other question that comes to mind for me, is if the holster was on the left side of the bed and the ammo was on the right side, just how can OP explain that he didn't notice that RS was not in the bed, no matter which side it was, before he went and shot up the toilet room? Unless he had actually just told her(referring to his statement as presented above that he had spoken to her just before going to get the fans) to go lock herself in there and call the police because he'd "heard a noise"....

The gun was probably fully loaded already, so ammo on the right side may be a nonissue. OP can say he heard the noise, scampered around to the left side of the bed where the gun (and holster) lay, etc.

 

[FrancesB]

BBM... Very good points!

Perhaps the locked bedroom door comes in to play because he knows he will eventually have to explain the damage to the door. Let's see what kind of creative stories he can up with to explain yet another bullet hole through another door and more damage that appears as if he was trying to pry the door open.

Sure looks to me like there was a lot of hiding behind locked doors that night that wasn't too well received.

When is a locked door not a locked door?

When Pistorius has the keys!