Trial Discussion Thread #8 - 14.03.17, Day 11

[kittychi]

~snipped~


Yeah, why did he assume there was only one intruder? If there had been more than one, him yelling at the 'first' intruder to 'get out of my house' would have effectively shut any other ones up. So what made this 'terrified and fearful' individual so sure that there was only one intruder?

...and if he was so fearful, why DIDN'T he have bars on his windows???


None of it makes sense...he slept with the balcony doors open, after all.

 

[Trooper]

the broken airconditioner..

it was a hot day in Pretoria.. the house has been without air conditioning all day , it s high summer... even though Pretoria is 4,500 feet above sea level the average temp in Feb is between 95 and 99 F degrees...the nights go down to about 63 , 65 on average.. a locked up house retains heat well into the night without the aid of an operative air conditioner. Locked up because Oscar was out all day , all afternoon at a real estate agents party.. he gets home around 6pm..

Reeva has already been there, some 2 hours before, picked up laundry, or something in a laundry basket, which was what was testified to , took it somewhere and returns, about 10 mins before Oscar arrives..

He is dressed for his afternoon out ... she is dressed in the black tanktop and shorts..

Assuming, rather unrealistically, but hey.. that Reeva dressed in that outfit only an hour before she arrives to pick up the laundry.. 4pm approx.. and she dies in that same outfit. 12 hours and 17 minutes later..

same black tank top and shorts.. .

Oscar has changed.. he isn't in his go-out-to-drinkies with the real estate agent clothing.. he is in a pair of sleeping shorts, when he is met by Standar then Baba , Oscar still carrying Reevas body down the stairs, then Stipp , Oscar on his knees in the hallway..

it is inconceivable to me, that Reeva wouldn't shower and change.. something prevented this.. to sleep in the same shorts and top on, that she has had on for at least 12 hours on a hot day, then a hot night in an unairconditioned room, where even the fans were out on the balcony, not in the room, is not compatible with choice.. its a forced error.

I'm not quite there with the broken air con and her in the same outfit just yet.. .. but I'll get there!!

 

[Rumpole]

I doubt the State would have presented the photos as evidence if the blood spatter had not been confirmed to be Reeva's and/or OP's blood.

I don't think OP shot Reeva near the bed. As you said - there would likely have been evidence of that if he had.

I don't know how the blood spatter on the wall above the headboard on the left-hand side of the bed could have been deposited there. Even if it was cast-off blood when OP may have been getting his phone, how did it get so high on the wall?

Speaking of cast-off blood - IIRC, there were no blood droplets on the floor on the left-hand side of the bed. If OP was dripping in Reeva's blood, and went to the bedside to get his phone, I would expect there to be blood droplets on the floor in that vicinity- or bloody footprints, since he was wearing his prosthetics when he bashed in the toilet door and when he pulled Reeva out of the toilet room.

Plus, the duvet was found crumpled on the floor at the foot of the bed. There were apparent blood drops on it, and when Van Staden uncrumpled the duvet, he discovered more blood drops on the previously unexposed part.

I hope the blood spatter analyst will shed some light on this. All I know is the blood spatter tells a story.

Hearing of these blood spots did grab my attention. Something that the Defense has to address. There are lots of possible explanations. We can only speculate (guess).


My name sake Rumpole of the Bailey often opines about the importance of blood spatter analysis (ref Penge Bungalow Murders) His career's biggest success that he opines on frequently)

 

[nastasya]

Yes, being an double amputee does mean he is disabled.

Exactly right. OP is an world-class athlete. If you read his bio you will see he could run faster on his stumps than most can run on their legs.

What abilities do you think he is lacking, other than judgment?

 

[sorrell skye]

Am I confused or was there 5 gunshots? We have the 4 cartridge cases in the bathroom hallway & bathroom & the 1 that was found by the defence team in the toilet bowl.

The Defense team allegedly found a bullet in the toilet bowl. It hasn't been brought into evidence yet.

1. Cartridge casing found near the far end of the 5.23 meter-long wardrobe hallway that leads to the approx. 1 meter-long passageway that leads into the bathroom

2. Cartridge casing found in the passageway that leads to the bathroom, near the beginning of that passageway

3. Cartridge casing found on the floor near the sink

4. Cartridge casing found in the bathroom, near one of the broken panels (I couldn't tell exactly where in the bathroom this casing was located)

I just watched yesterday's trial testimony again, to double-check the locations of the casings.

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"7:39 - 7:40 a.m. - Staden takes 5 photos OP's prostheses (photos #159 - 163)"

Was OP wearing the legs at the time these photos were taken? If so, wasn't OP in the garage? How did photographer run down to garage and take these photos and then get back upstairs to take more photos so quickly?

I am getting more and more confused.

 

[sorrell skye]

6.11 pic was taken of plank laying right inside toilet on top of blood. I'm sure that's the plank later seen outside toilet.

6,12 pic of mag rack beside toilet....leaving little room for Reeva to take shelter there.

Damage high up on wall in that corner of toilet too.

I thought that cracked wall looked high up, too.

If it is high up, how does that fit with the locations of the bullet holes in the toilet door, which are low?

Trying to make sense of this bit.

 

[anagrammy]

I am questioning the bloodstains on BOTH sides of the cricket bat too.

This pic shows the logo side, before the photographer turned it over. I don't have it now, but know there is a photo of the other side too, with all the black signatures and a thick bloodstain.

Now I can understand the cricket bat being used to bash the door and then, when it was dropped into blood, getting a big smear on the underside, but how did all the blood get on top of it too? And why was there so much blood on the underside, when in this pic it appears to be resting on just spots. There is an awful lot of blood on both sides of it, I think.

Maybe OP had to shoot her in the head to hide the cricket bat injuries. During the pause between screams, he dragged her into the bathroom to finish her off neatly, over the toilet. She saw him aiming at her head and threw her hand up, but it was too late.

 

[04009margaret]

TY for taking the time to create that awesome timeline Minor4th!

Something I noticed as I was looking at the evidence photos yesterday:

There was no key in the main bedroom keyhole.

In OP's BH affidavit, OP stated that he "felt trapped" because his bedroom door was locked.

Tying this in with the locked/then unlocked toilet door, a key was found in the keyhole of the toilet door.

If the bedroom door was locked, where is the key that OP would have used to unlock it? After all, he left the key in the toilet door after he unlocked it.

If he had to unlock the bedroom door to go downstairs, why did he not leave that key in the keyhole, as well?

Questions, questions, questions...

And why when first asked if he'd washed his hands did he deny it?

 

[minor4th]

"7:39 - 7:40 a.m. - Staden takes 5 photos OP's prostheses (photos #159 - 163)"

Was OP wearing the legs at the time these photos were taken? If so, wasn't OP in the garage? How did photographer run down to garage and take these photos and then get back upstairs to take more photos so quickly?

I am getting more and more confused.

No, OP was not in the legs, and I'm unsure whether the pics were taken in the garage, but I believe they were. I agree, there are some weird issues with the timing of the photos. I'm going to post the times from the second part shortly, and it looks even weirder.

 

[Feynman]

Am I confused or was there 5 gunshots? We have the 4 cartridge cases in the bathroom hallway & bathroom & the 1 that was found by the defence team in the toilet bowl.

The one in the toilet was a bullet, not a cartridge.

 

[Trooper]

"7:39 - 7:40 a.m. - Staden takes 5 photos OP's prostheses (photos #159 - 163)"

Was OP wearing the legs at the time these photos were taken? If so, wasn't OP in the garage? How did photographer run down to garage and take these photos and then get back upstairs to take more photos so quickly?

I am getting more and more confused.

no. the pics are of the prosthetics minus Oscar's stumps..159 - 163 ( removed from the stumps.. alone, standing by themselves, bereft of whats left of Oscar's legs, separate , a left and right prosthetic pair of legs, upright and hollow at the top. 2nd sequence of pics

pics 155 156 157 158 are of Oscar as he presented himself to the first responding detective and the photographer ( Van Staden ) the first photos taken..

altogether, 9 pics taken. in the garage that morning. 4 of Oscar WITH legs, 5 of the LEGs alone.(no Oscar in them)

the time the photos are taken are the overall sequence of pics taken.. the number given is the sequence of pics or pic assigned to a particular album

Van Stad wasn't runnin anywhere.. .

Tabling this evidence he was also outlining his Record Management System.. quite nifty, and standard best practice..

that RMSystem allows recall of photos cross referenced with related info or even with unrelated info.. it includes fluffed shots, there were no deleted shots..

to simplify. the number assigned to the pic is its position in the Album to which the picture relates to eg. the bloodstains album, the autopsy album, the bathroom album, the stairway album and so on and so forth.. as Rumpole himself would say.

the Clock number, is the sequence , starting from go to whoa in which the pics were actually taken..

to follow WHAT pics were taken.. you follow the Album and sequence.

to follow WHEN it was taken.. you follow the time and date stamp done by the camera.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

more questions re the bedroom door..

they go into the bedroom after a 'quiet dinner' ( don't know who cooked it, what it was, who ate what,) presumably locking the bedroom door behind them

Reeva, ( while it is not an exact science) ate some sort of salad, vegetable, cheese meal approx. 2 hours before her death.. being generous , make it 3.... that's midnight , say.. she has to get up, unlock the bedroom door, lock it behind her, go downstairs, rattle around in the fridge, eat, replace containers back in the fridge. come upstairs, unlock the bedroom door, go in, lock it behind her..
then Oscar has to unlock the bedroom door, to go downstairs to unlock and open the front door for the ambulance, go back upstairs to retrieve the body, then he hauls Reeva' s body downstairs....after having retrieved the toilet door key by crashing it with the bat, then unlocking it ..


so much embroidery, filigree , embellishment, accessorizing, in this performance here, my eyes are swiveling.

I doubt, that Reeva has locked OP in the bedroom. Why should she have done this? Only to go downstairs to eat something? Normally none would do this.

 

[Trooper]

Roux had been convinced by his clients outcry about a 'great many pics' being taken of him.. Roux , dealing with erroneous information in this particular, was placed in the position of having to demand these 'great many pics ' be tendered in evidence.. Roux had not grasped 2 things. there was not a great many pics taken, and of the 9 pics taken of Oscar and matters relating to Oscar's appearance ( the prosthetics ) 4 of these pics had been catalogued into one Album, and 5 had been catalogued, correctly, into the following Album.

Van Staden would have retrieved them in about 22 seconds.. the 10 min adjournment to do so would have required him to obtain his own laptop, recall all 9 pics with date and time and number assigned to them, print a copy for himself, upload them onto the court records data base ( again , they would have already been there, but again to be inserted in the court record of this request by Roux) ..divided up in the package of 4 pics of Oscar, 5 pics of the legs minus Oscar , a copy for Nels and his clerks, a copy for the Master Archive, an overall skeleton showing the exact position of the 4 pics and 5 pics in relation to each assigned album, and within each album so assigned, stroll back into court, present the evidence and await patiently the next question..

Simple.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The black phone was found partially underneath the bathmat near the pistol, but was visible without moving anything.

The white phone wasn't visible until Van Staden lifted up a bloody towel (to see if there was any potential evidence beneath the towel).

So yes - 2 cell phones were found in the bathroom.

I had learned, the white "phone" wasn't really a phone but the cover of the black phone???

 

[Rumpole]

I had learned, the white "phone" wasn't really a phone but the cover of the black phone???

There was confusion (by Van Rensburg) but that was TWO black phones.. one of the black things was a cover.

The white phone is separate.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I believe the holster was in the drawer in the bedside table, while the gun itself was under the bed (without holster)

SamT testified, OP's gun never was placed under the bed but on his prosthetics or beside his prosthetics on the floor??

 

[minor4th]

UPDATED: Van Staden's timeline according to photo metadata and testimony.

Entries marked with ** are times after which crime scene had been disturbed and evidence moved about.


FEBRUARY 14

04:50 a.m. - Straden arrived, Botha told him what happened and took him through the scene (first time)

* Straden then asked Both to clear scene

* Straden then went to garage

* Straden conducts PR test on OP's arms

5:12 a.m. Straden takes 4 photos of OP in garage (Photos #155-158)


5:15 a.m. - Went to front and photographed entrance (photo #2)


5:16 a.m. - 5:43 a.m. -takes photographs of scene inside, including downstairs and Reeva's injuries, (photos #3 -13; #132 - 155)


5:45 a.m - 5:50 a.m - Staden photographs crime scene going up he stairs (photos #14 - #27)


5:51 a.m. - 5:55 a.m. - Staden photographs upstairs hallway and area outside OP bedroom (photos #27 - #39)


5:55 a.m.- 5:56 a.m. - pictures of the contents of display case and wide angle view of display case (photos #51m #53, #54)


5:58 a.m. - Staden starts taking photographs in bedroom (photo #55)

* Photo # 56 -fan, duvet, ipad, grey t shirt 5:58

* Photo # 68 - duvet, jeans, black fan unplugged

* Photos #72,#73 - bedroom, sandal is seen, overnight bag on couch

* Photo #76 -spots on wall- above left headboard​

5:59 a.m. - Photo of bedroom looking toward bathroom (photo #60, #77)


6:00 a.m - Staden photographs the overnight bag on the couch (photo #78) and the thermometer switched off (photo #79)


6:01 a.m. - photograph of watches in case with blood smear (photo #67)


6:01 a.m. - 6:06 a.m. - photos hallway to bathroom, cartridge case, view into bathroom from hallway, close up of cartridge case, blood drops (photos #80-87)


6:06 a.m. - 6:10 a.m. - Bathroom pics, panels, cricket bat right side up, cartridges, towels, splinters (photos #88,89, 90, 91, 92,, 97 -103, 110-112,119-121 )


6:10 am - 6:13 am - Photos of toilet cubicle (photos #122-128)


6:14 a.m. - towel, gun, phone (photo #104)


6:16 a.m. door with panels out (photo #113)


**6:17 a.m. - close up of gun (photo #105)


**6:18 a.m. - close up, front and back of black cell phone (photos #106, 107)


**6:19 a.m. - white cell phone (towels have been moved at this point- VS put them in the bathtub) Botha took the cell phones (photos #108, 109)


**6:21 a.m. - bedside table with a print magazine, possibly another phone, and holster on the table pushed against the back wall (photos #74, #75)


** 6:21 a.m. - cones and evidence markers in hallway where first cartridge found (photo #174)


**6:23 a.m. - evidence markers and tape measures held next to cartridges (photos #175-178)


**6:24 a.m. - bathroom, showing cone evidence marker and bat, towels have been moved, crime scene has been moved around (photo #179)

*photo #180 - bathroom with cones, cricket bat changed, no cell phone (no time)

*photo #181 - toilet cubicle - moved items to access evidence, magazine rack (no time)

*photo #186 - toilet, no magazine rack (no time), 3 fragments (b4)
​

6:27 a.m. - 6:32 a.m. - photographs of the outside of OP house (photos #164-171)


**6:45 am - 6:50 am - photos of panels, door and damage in bathroom (photos # 94-96, 118)


**7:01 a.m - 7:02 a.m. - photos of door panels, door, broken tiles in bathroom and toilet cubicle (photos #93, 114-117)


**7:04 am - 7:05 am - other side of cricket bat with signatures and close up (photos #198, 199)


**7:19 a.m. - close up of gun, slide pulled back (by fingerprints expert) and bullet from chamber of gun (photos #193, 195)


**7:34 a.m. - 7:36 a.m. -duvet spread out by VS (photos #69 -71)


7:39 - 7:40 a.m. - Staden takes 5 photos OP's prostheses (photos #159 - 163)


**7:43 a.m. - another view of sunglasses display case (photo #52)


**7:50 a.m. - 2 photos of "fragments" in the bathroom (after evidence has been moved about) (photos #129, 130)


**7:59 a.m. - stereo in OP bedroom (photo #62)


**7:59 a.m. -8:00 a.m. - various photos of OP's effects (medicine maybe?) (photos #63 -66)


**8:02 a.m. - photo magazine and ammo pouch, found by Van Staden in the drawer on the right hand bedside table (photos #57 -#59)


**12:06 pm -12:07 pm – Photos of damage to OP’s bedroom door (photos #41, #49, #50)



FEBRUARY 15

**15:31 – 15:32 (3:31 pm – 3:32 pm) – photos of bedroom door with holes and damage (photos #40, #42 - #48)



MARCH 08

** blood spatter and measurements (marked as taken on 2/15) (photos #364, 366, 371, 373, 379, 391)

 

[Trooper]

I doubt, that Reeva has locked OP in the bedroom. Why should she have done this? Only to go downstairs to eat something? Normally none would do this.

if Oscar is to be believed.. that bedroom door was locked.. this was a large component of his allegded 'fear and terror'...if we believe Oscar, we have to believe that Reeva on her midnight snack excursion locked her self out of the bedroom, ( locking Oscar in ) unlocks her self back into the bedroom after coming back upstairs from the snack event, then locks them both back in the bedroom.

The only alternative to be considered is that the food was in the bedroom. I reject this because of the temperature... no one would leave food in a bedroom, especially salad, cheese stuff, on a hot night. With no Air conditioning.

I don't believe it for a New York minute , either.. the bathroom window was wide open , the heavy wooden slat blinds were half drawn down, the balcony door was open, the curtains and blinds open..

This malarkey of I'm-so-sensitive-to-security- issues is a promotion of Oscar being the on-the-ball man, ready to combat a battalion of high trained ex Rhodesian military homing in on his house , armed with bazookas , their beady eyes on his sunglasses collection.

 

[minor4th]

SamT testified, OP's gun never was placed under the bed but on his prosthetics or beside his prosthetics on the floor??

So their accounts differ.

ETA: But SamT was not there on the 14th and didn't know how Oscar's habits might have changed when he was with Reeva