Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[minor4th]

He did. Not exactly in those words, but very closely. It was also quoted in the media.

I remember him saying he didn't exit the bedroom because he can't balance well on tile.

 

[vansleuths]

OP said that the lights in the bedroom were off and it was pitch black.

Does the PT have any proof that the lights were on?

 

[minor4th]

OP said that the lights in the bedroom were off and it was pitch black.

Does the PT have any proof that the lights were on?

No, and presumably the lights really were off

 

[kaos]

I really don't believe there are any "OP supporters" around here. There are people who think the state has not proved premeditated murder, and there are people who believe that OP's account is essentially true. That does not mean that "we" are supporters or want him to escape justice at any cost.

And I also haven't really seen anyone criticizing Nel for trying to poke holes in OP's account, or maybe I've missed it. I, for one, have expressed discomfort over some of his tactics that seem designed to make OP cry or break down (like showing the picture of dead Reeva). Other than that, I find him confusing and his manner a bit irritating, but I understand what he is doing and why he is doing it.

There's quite clearly OP 'supporters' here and they don't hold the same interest in finding justice as those like yourself who are viewing it from a more legal perspective. You must have missed the posts mocking Nel's accent and the ones accusing him of being a brutal bully but they were definitely there.

I don't believe the state has provided any motive yet but do believe they've proved intent. There's still much more to come in Nel's CE and not just of OP either.

If a family member of yours had died in similar circumstances, wouldn't you want somebody like Nel prosecuting the killer? He knows the police evidence is tainted so is having to do his best with what he's got.

 

[minor4th]

He did. Not exactly in those words, but very closely. It was also quoted in the media.

I found it quoted in an article:

"That's my personality, my lady. That's how I am, so instead of cowering and running away, at that split moment, I wanted to put myself between the danger, the perceived danger, and Reeva, my lady. I cannot explain why I didn't … I wish – I wish I did all these other things that are put to me."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oscar-...hilst-you-shot-her-four-times--141748433.html

I totally missed that part of the cross examination. I need to go back and listen to some of this.

 

[minor4th]

There's quite clearly OP 'supporters' here and they don't hold the same interest in finding justice as those like yourself who are viewing it from a more legal perspective. You must have missed the posts mocking Nel's accent and the ones accusing him of being a brutal bully but they were definitely there.

I don't believe the state has provided any motive yet but do believe they've proved intent. There's still much more to come in Nel's CE and not just of OP either.

If a family member of yours had died in similar circumstances, wouldn't you want somebody like Nel prosecuting the killer? He knows the police evidence is tainted so is having to do his best with what he's got.

Don't get me wrong - I think Nel is doing his job well.

 

[emmavoberry]

He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog and drove off

Now I am truly sickened. He runs over the dog, undoubtedly speeding, and when the dog's guardian confronts him, he shoots the dog and leaves the scene. Ruthless, cowardly, and typically, it wasn't his fault. Why tell the story? Yes, some would see this act as merciful, but it wasn't his place to decide what to do. Secondly, many drivers in such cases have stopped to help the dog, drive her to a vet even when things looked hopeless. I would have looked at this story the same way pre-killing Reeva as after. He was ticked off at the dog's guardian and the dog so he got rid of the problem. Too bad that yet again he was not held responsible. He got away with hit and run. I guess his great love of the disabled does not extend to dogs.

 

[shane13]

Whew!
I had to take a break from the great confrontation here.
So I watched something more gentle--Pacquaio boxing match.
Now back to here. [j/k]

 

[wb180]

The problem I see is not that OP is lying, but that he has trouble handling Nel's badgering tone at times, and so he doesn't explain himself as well as he could. I believe this is because, like many disabled people, he's more needy of kindness and more highly emotionally strung than most of us.

He's used to receiving love and sympathy because of his disability and when he's scolded instead, he simply collapses. This is what Nel hasn't grasped or is pretending not to. When he says OP is all about himself, Nel has missed the point. Oscar was always made the centre of attention because of his physical challenges and that was not his fault. But it isn't because he's selfish or self-centered. It's rather because OTHERS have always put his needs first. It's just the life he inherited because of his disability through no fault of his own. But if he only ever thought about himself, he would not have stepped in to save a man's life once.

So, for example, he doesn't explain that when he said he deactivated the alarm it was only because that's what he had concluded when it didn't go off as he walked down the stairs. Not because he was conscious that he did so. He doesn't explain this well because his reasoning faculties are somewhat impaired and yet because in other ways he seems so normal, this point is lost on people.

He is a lovely man, at once and adult and a child, and he is not faking his emotional breakdowns. He grew up more naturally sensitive than most, much like a child with Down's Syndrome.


For the same reason, his responses to situations are not the same as those of a typically reasonable man. Sometimes he does odd things. I've always noticed this in people born with disabilities. Even when those disabilities are purely physical, it often carries over to a certain amount of mental dysfuntion as well. So he doesn't wait for Reeva to reply and does odd things like that.

Are you Oscar visiting us on WB. Sounds like blaming everyone but himself haha.

 

[minor4th]

Whew!
I had to take a break from the great confrontation here.
So I watched something more gentle--Pacquaio boxing match.
Now back to here. [j/k]

No fireworks here tonight ...

And with that, I'll say goodnight fftobed:

 

[lisasalinger]

I'm listening to Day 19 again and this might be one of my favorite quotes. It has to on the top ten list along with the Valentine's Day present explanation.

In relation to seeing Reeva's legs under the duvet:


“When I got out of bed, I wasn’t holding my face until after I got out of bed, I rubbed my face and then I turned to get out of the bed. When I moved the duvet I saw that the duvet went up and from that I can deduct that Reeva, at least her legs, were under the duvet.”

 

[Val1]

yeah. Cook dinner for him, give him his V-day gift and go home.

Something kept her there. And, then she said the wrong thing to him.

But, look, if the pathologist is right, they were still up at 1am.

If the witnesses were right, they were fighting at 2pm and she was shot at 3pm.

The witnesses might do it if they didn't all contradict each other.

The only contradictions I see in the witness statements depends on how they tell time.

A few moments can mean 1-3 minutes for one person and for another 5-10 minutes, especially at that time of the morning and depending on whether their clocks are all synced to an official time source.
ie.My bedroom clock is on average about five minutes faster than my kitchen clock and the one on my pc is about 1-2 minutes off from the kitchen one. My pc one is the only one I would use if trying to match to my neighbour since it's synced to the internet clock.

Iows, shortly after 3:00 could mean anywhere up to imo 3:10 and still be consistent with what that particular witness is testifying to. Were any of the witness statements done in their homes with the detective confirming what time source they were going by?

 

[Val1]

Why give someone a Valentine's Day gift at all if you're about to dump them?

Are you talking about OP?

 

[James50]

I remember him saying he didn't exit the bedroom because he can't balance well on tile.

8:26pm: Nel: Isn't that it - you wanted to go and confront these robbers. And you did, by firing.

Pistorius: That's my personality. Instead of cowering and running away, I want to put myself between Reeva and the danger.

 

[lisasalinger]

The problem I see is not that OP is lying, but that he has trouble handling Nel's badgering tone at times, and so he doesn't explain himself as well as he could. I believe this is because, like many disabled people, he's more needy of kindness and more highly emotionally strung than most of us.

He's used to receiving love and sympathy because of his disability and when he's scolded instead, he simply collapses. This is what Nel hasn't grasped or is pretending not to. When he says OP is all about himself, Nel has missed the point. Oscar was always made the centre of attention because of his physical challenges and that was not his fault. But it isn't because he's selfish or self-centered. It's rather because OTHERS have always put his needs first. It's just the life he inherited because of his disability through no fault of his own. But if he only ever thought about himself, he would not have stepped in to save a man's life once.

So, for example, he doesn't explain that when he said he deactivated the alarm it was only because that's what he had concluded when it didn't go off as he walked down the stairs. Not because he was conscious that he did so. He doesn't explain this well because his reasoning faculties are somewhat impaired and yet because in other ways he seems so normal, this point is lost on people.

He is a lovely man, at once and adult and a child, and he is not faking his emotional breakdowns. He grew up more naturally sensitive than most, much like a child with Down's Syndrome.


For the same reason, his responses to situations are not the same as those of a typically reasonable man. Sometimes he does odd things. I've always noticed this in people born with disabilities. Even when those disabilities are purely physical, it often carries over to a certain amount of mental dysfuntion as well. So he doesn't wait for Reeva to reply and does odd things like that.

BBM

The accused does not deserve any more kindness than any other defendant sitting in that box.

He chose to carry a weapon that had very damaging bullets in it. He chose to pick it up, remove the holster, remove the safety, walk toward danger (according to his story which I don't believe) and shoot it through a door four times.

Anybody who is prepared to do that must be prepared to sit in a box in court and answer the questions.

He does not deserve special treatment because of how he grew up. That would not be a fair judicial process.

If you think that Prosecutors and Defense lawyers are there to make friends with the witnesses, you are mistaken. Roux and Nel are not being any more mean or friendly to the witnesses here than any other lawyers would be.

 

[James50]

Are you Oscar visiting us on WB. Sounds like blaming everyone but himself haha.

I don't see what point you're making here unless it's to toe the line of weak arguments of Gerrie Nel. He blamed himself for many things. The notion that he did otherwise is simply false.

 

[lisasalinger]

I have to believe if the hole in the door was made by a bullet that would be documented evidence and part of the prosecutors case used to discredit OP's version of events.

It is documented in evidence. Nel hasn't gotten to this portion of the story in Oscar's cross-examination yet.

 

[jassy writer]

The infamous photo showing duvet.

I put it to you......

There is no logical reason why somebody in the course of normal duvet use would spread out a duvet like that. I see no other likely explanation other than a police photographer might well do that in order to photograph the duvet (brown spots)

The photographer clearly DID at some point take a photo of brown spots on the duvet.

In my own experience, I have known the duvet to fall off the end of the bed or be pushed off on a hot night... but it NEVER then spreads itself out as shown in the photo. Not once has this ever happened. Talk about something that "does not make sense"

Given that the area where the duvet has been spread out is the only area big enough in that part of the room, and given that the fans were exactly where OP says... the Cops would have had to move the fans before spreading out the duvet. Unless they unplugged the large fan, they would have to move it (and its lead) closer to the extension lead double socket. Exactly where the fan is shown in the photo. The small fan looks to have been plugged in near the HiFi etc... and was moved towards the corner (as shown in subsequent photos)

Given that the cops most certainly DID move items... and contaminate the crime scene, then one CAN NOT rely on photos, certainly not details that are only known from photos. The cops and prosecution created this problem for themselves. It is their burden to overcome the unreliability of evidence, especially any photos they took.

The police photographer has already been cross examined by the defense and no mention was made of the duvet. Barry Roux did not (as far as I recall) make a major issue out of its positioning or put it to the photographer that he moved the duvet off the bed. I might be wrong about this but it does corroborate what Nel said.

 

[James50]

BBM

The accused does not deserve any more kindness than any other defendant sitting in that box.

I didn't say he deserved kindness. I said he's used to receiving it. I was offering a viewpoint about his mindset.

He chose to carry a weapon that had very damaging bullets in it. He chose to pick it up, remove the holster, remove the safety, walk toward danger (according to his story which I don't believe) and shoot it through a door four times.

In a country where armed intrusion (not just breaking an entering) are common with the same kinds of weapons, and most adults own and carry guns and use them for self-defensive purposes. Context is everything.

If you think that Prosecutors and Defense lawyers are there to make friends with the witnesses, you are mistaken. Roux and Nel are not being any more mean or friendly to the witnesses here than any other lawyers would be.

I said nothing about that, but thank you for giving this some thought.

 

[Freya1977]

He did. Not exactly in those words, but very closely. It was also quoted in the media.

He definitely said "because that's not my personality" or "because that's my personality" upon being questioned over and over why he didn't do one of many other things, including taking Reeva and escaping out the bedroom door. It might have been Friday, I believe?

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