Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

[Gbtaketwo]

I have long pondered possible/likely scenarios which would result in the crime and I have also come to a similar conclusion.

It is based upon previous experience, human nature, past behaviours, character studies, logic and the limited evidence.

I do think that the evening of Feb 13th was a major row and it had been brewing for a few weeks. It escalated to a new level though there had been signs that threats and violent bursts of anger were possible, likely not directed at RS herself until that night but at objects or excessive speeding, other signs of a dangerous temper and loss of self control.
For whatever reason, the actual triggers for this major row are private - no known evidence at this point (relationships are not catalogued perfectly and chronologically in media and software data, especially someone like OP who has already stated that he prefers to talk in person or by phone).
The trigger is extremely likely to be jealousy, possibly exacerbated by unknown personal, financial or relationship issues. It escalated into a dangerous and physical confrontation, mostly upstairs (damage to bedroom door) and OP feared the repurcussions this time as he'd gone much further than previous flash points, both in this and previous relationships.
It was the end, not just another OP tantrum but this time a life changing event. He panicked, totally flipped and kept RS captive in the bathroom area (much damage, jeans out of window) for a period of up to 1 hour after 2am.
I believe that it was him who forced her into the toilet and separated her from her phone which was the biggest threat to OP at that point. He was only killing time for the moment.
He tormented her, threatened her and this continued berating and humiliation ultimately ended in a complete loss of control due to her continued petrified screaming (fear of alerting neighbours) and he murdered her in cold-blood at around 3am.
His mythical intruder story may even have been invented and planned during that final traumatic hour and perhaps was the final bit of madness/confidence to take out all his anger, fulfil a thrill seeking gun nuts wet dream and fire those four shots through the door into his now ex-girlfriend.

I was also wondering initially if she may have been locked in the toilet for a long time until I read Mrs Stipp's statement again yesterday .
She said she had heard screaming for a while and then the screaming got louder so much so she thought someone must be running down the road towards them My guess is the first screaming she heard was by the bedroom doors and that when they were being broken down Reeva then ran screaming to the toilet .
One thing I am struggling to figure out is why Reeva didn't actually make a call to anyone if she had her phone with her . Either she didn't have a signal in the toilet or it was never in the toilet .
The other thing is although Reeva was screaming I don't think she ever saw the gun and thought he was actually going to shoot her because I can't believe that she would just be stood behind the door so it certainly seems cold blooded .
If she was expecting him to shoot at her I think she would have crouched down ,stood behind the wall (at the left hand side of the wc ) unless of course she didn't have time and he shot her as soon as she locked the door .
I will have to go and re read Mrs Stipp's testimony again ( for about the 4th
time ) to check timescales of screaming after the movement she described .
I know OP believes we will accept his statement that it was him that was screaming but I am pretty sure Mrs stipp's said she heard a man screaming when tests were done before the trial started.

Another quick thing I noticed yesterday.
I and a couple of other FM have suggested in a previous thread was that he had aimed at Reeva from her voice . The consensus was this wasn't the case . I felt it was because all of the bullets were all shot into the left hand side of the toilet.
Anyway I was reading the bail/charge documents again yesterday and noticed that the state also believe that he was aiming towards the basin (toilet ) and said so in that statement . Hadn't noticed that before and yet had formed that opinion anyway. It was the overhead photo that the state Ballistics guy took that made me think so .Why would he be doing that ?
I have a feeling this will be another point that Nel will put to OP .

 

[molly333]

I was also wondering initially if she may have been locked in the toilet for a long time until I read Mrs Stipp's statement again yesterday .
She said she had heard screaming for a while and then the screaming got louder so much so she thought someone must be running down the road towards them My guess is the first screaming she heard was by the bedroom doors and that when they were being broken down Reeva then ran screaming to the toilet .
*ship*

The screaming got louder....what part of the house do the Stipps face?

Do you think Reeva opened the bathroom window to scream out the window?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The screaming got louder....what part of the house do the Stipps face?

Do you think Reeva opened the bathroom window to scream out the window?

The Stipp's bedroom directly overlooks the bathroom and toilet window .
And I guess she could have opened the window to scream or it may have been open all along .

 

[Val1]

Because the doctor declared Reeva dead, no pulse, no respiration, cloudy eyes, but, worse than that, when he described her jaw clenched on OP's fingers, he was describing rigor mortis. It takes a little bit of time for that, she had been dead for a while. What time was it when the doctor came on the scene?

You think she'd already been dead for at least two hours which is when rigor normally starts setting in? I don't recall any testimony about lividity either, which would start about half an hour after death, I would think the jaw clenching must have been a reflex to having the fingers shoved down her throat, I really can't see OP having his fingers stuck in her mouth long enough for rigor mortis to have happened... unless all the bangs, both sets of them, and all the screams, shouts etc were staged. How would you explain the blood splatter and the arterial spurts down the steps? As for the doctor, I believe he arrived around 3:25am that morning, so very shortly after the last set of "bangs".

 

[molly333]

You think she'd already been dead for at least two hours which is when rigor normally starts setting in? I don't recall any testimony about lividity either, which would start about half an hour after death, I would think the jaw clenching must have been a reflex to having the fingers shoved down her throat, I really can't see OP having his fingers stuck in her mouth long enough for rigor mortis to have happened... unless all the bangs, both sets of them, and all the screams, shouts etc were staged. How would you explain the blood splatter and the arterial spurts down the steps? As for the doctor, I believe he arrived around 3:25am that morning, so very shortly after the last set of "bangs".

Rigor begins in the small muscles of the face, and I think it can happen there relatively quickly. I'm just thinking about the doctor's description. He said Oscar was trying to clear an airway but her jaw was clenched on his fingers. Then he again described the clenched jaw after he got Oscar's fingers out of her mouth.

He did not attempt any resuscitation. He was sure she was dead, and I'm guessing this included the clenched jaw and cloudy eyes. Otherwise, how would he know she hadn't just died a minute before he examined her, even with the brain injury?

This says to me that she died closer to the earlier bangs, maybe even immediately after she was shot.

I don't know about the arterial blood. I haven't heard that testimony.

I think if the doctor had any hope he could revive her, he would have tried.

 

[Val1]

A large plastic bag could be used as a tourniquet to stop bleeding if tied tightly around an injured limb

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Yes it could, though I don't see how that would have made a difference to someone who had had her head blown open and all that stuff was already on scene when the doctor got there. I would love to see a list of the actual evidence collected but even in this pic, there seems to have been a fair amount of "cover up"(towels, bags, rug?, etc) type of material left after RS was taken away.

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/13.jpg

 

[Jodi Bon Jovi]

Hi all,

Just a few observations from me. I don't have internet at home so have to rush through all the information so apologies if i am going over old ground.

* if you go to get your gun because you think there is an intruder i'm sure you would have the time to get up close and personal with the person you assume is laying near to that gun to warn them/ask them if they heard something. That would be the time to whisper to them, not when you are half way down the hall. Still struggling with the fact OP claims to not know his GF is in the room with him.

* when scared/threatened the first thing i think most would do would be seek reassurance/opinion/guidance of a loved one in the same room.

* if OP is very unstable on his stumps i would assume he would have the time to put on his legs just as he had time to grab his gun (i assume he had to walk to the side of the bed), or else he would feel vulnerable. If you feel vulnerable you do what you can to feel less vulnerable. Vulnerable enough to grab your gun, vulnerable enough to put on your legs.

* I get that fear can make people irrational, but if you have a gun you have the upper hand. You don't need to be in close contact to fire a gun, especially if you are competent at it. You can wait to see who you are shooting at. If i was un armed and someone was climbing into my house i would hit them to kill because i'd need to be in close contact to protect myself and my kids...if i had a gun i'd have the luxury of standing back and waiting, warning them, GTFO or you are dead. Not the same as if you are in close, personal contact with an intruder and have to fight to survive.

* Surely the poor girl screamed.

* I am a hot head, when i crack i crack and i am always sorry afterwards and wish i handled it better. I have never been violent but i yell, yell, yell so i can understand that when you go into a rage it makes you do things (or in my case say things) that you regret with all your heart. I don't think OP wanted Reeva dead and i believe he is very remorseful, but i think rage took over and in the heat of the moment he didn't care about consequences.

Very tragic indeed.

 

[Val1]

Rigor begins in the small muscles of the face, and I think it can happen there relatively quickly. I'm just thinking about the doctor's description. He said Oscar was trying to clear an airway but her jaw was clenched on his fingers. Then he again described the clenched jaw after he got Oscar's fingers out of her mouth.

He did not attempt any resuscitation. He was sure she was dead, and I'm guessing this included the clenched jaw and cloudy eyes. Otherwise, how would he know she hadn't just died a minute before he examined her, even with the brain injury?

This says to me that she died closer to the earlier bangs, maybe even immediately after she was shot.

I don't know about the arterial blood. I haven't heard that testimony.

I gather you didn't see the pic of RS's head that was shown? There's no way in h*ll she would have survived that and it would have been obvious to anyone that had seen her.

All the Dr. did was confirm all the other signs, it would have been remiss of him as the first medical personnel on scene to not have double checked.

Re the Dr. stating that OP was clearing the airway, I think the Dr. not only took OP at his word, but also couldn't see any other reason for OP doing what he was witnessing, even though the first thing you would do to clear someone's airway would be to put their head back or put them on their side if they're aspirating/drowning on their own blood.

I don't recall any testimony that anyone else was attempting CPR or anything for that matter so whatever OP thought he was doing... maybe he thought he was holding her tongue from sliding back, or maybe he was preventing any last words, only he knows and so far he's not exactly being very forthright imo.

 

[molly333]

I gather you didn't see the pic of RS's head that was shown? There's no way in h*ll she would have survived that and it would have been obvious to anyone that had seen her. All the Dr. did was confirm all the other signs, it would have been remiss of him as the first medical personnel on scene to not have double checked.

I did see one picture, but it was hard to tell the extent of the injury. Are you thinking she could have survived that injury for any amount of time? But, the doctor is describing rigor in the small muscles of the face, IMO. She had been dead for a period of time.

Again, I just looked up cloudy eyes--it said within 3 hours of death.

 

[molly333]

Yes it could, though I don't see how that would have made a difference to someone who had had her head blown open and all that stuff was already on scene when the doctor got there. I would love to see a list of the actual evidence collected but even in this pic, there seems to have been a fair amount of "cover up"(towels, bags, rug?, etc) type of material left after RS was taken away.

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/13.jpg

Those plastic bags are strange. Not much blood. Doesn't seem like her heart was pumping while she was on the downstairs floor.

 

[Val1]

I did see one picture, but it was hard to tell the extent of the injury. Are you thinking she could have survived that injury for any amount of time? But, the doctor is describing rigor in the small muscles of the face, IMO. She had been dead for a period of time.

Again, I just looked up cloudy eyes--it said within 3 hours of death.

I would imagine having the blood supply that close to your eyes blown away might account for that pretty quickly, with or without death. I doubt she survived even a couple of seconds after that headshot, though it's possible her heart was still pumping for a few minutes, at least according to the literature. The following site explains quite simply about how to determine time of death and there are some variables(to be declared legally dead anyway) but it clearly states it takes pretty much 2 hours for rigor mortis to start and unless she'd been kept somewhere cold, I don't see any reason for that to have sped up, imho.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estimating-the-time-of-death.html

 

[molly333]

I would imagine having the blood supply that close to your eyes blown away might account for that pretty quickly, with or without death. I doubt she survived even a couple of seconds after that headshot, though it's possible her heart was still pumping for a few minutes, at least according to the literature. The following site explains quite simply about how to determine time of death and there are some variables(to be declared legally dead anyway) but it clearly states it takes pretty much 2 hours for rigor mortis to start and unless she'd been kept somewhere cold, I don't see any reason for that to have sped up, imho.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/estimating-the-time-of-death.html

You have to be dead for cloudy eyes. That's why the doc mentioned it.

All I can say is, rigor begins in the small muscles of the face. I've seen this in other cases where it happens in the face first and more quickly than the rest of the body. I wish the doc had been asked that question directly, but there's no doubt in my mind he knew she had been dead for a while. That's why he does nothing, and him doing nothing is why Oscar thought he was incompetent. Oscar was still trying to 'stop the bleeding' from the hip.

I just looked at the picture of the bathroom floor outside the toilet. He did not lay her down there, judging by the blood spatter. He carried her out of the toilet room, IMO. I wonder why.

If it were me, I would lay her on the floor and assess her condition.

 

[shane13]

Because the doctor declared Reeva dead, no pulse, no respiration, cloudy eyes, but, worse than that, when he described her jaw clenched on OP's fingers, he was describing rigor mortis. It takes a little bit of time for that, she had been dead for a while. What time was it when the doctor came on the scene?

I had wondered about this.
Was it def rigor? Or was Reeva's last act to indicate who her killer was?

Afterall if she was so obviously dead, why would Oscar be putting his fingers in her mouth?

Perhaps it is the guilty man act?
He was so intent on showing others that he was not a deliberate killer, that he pretended to help her after she was obviously dead.

But while she was alive, he sat over her body crying, but doing nothing to help her, until others unexpecdtedly were there.

 

[Val1]

Those plastic bags are strange. Not much blood. Doesn't seem like her heart was pumping while she was on the downstairs floor.

Imo she definitely died upstairs in the toilet room. As for the arterial spurts, if her heart was still beating for a few minutes after that head shot, then for sure the last set of bangs were what killed her or there would be nothing but blood drops as her wounds drained while OP carried her downstairs and certainly no reason to either hold her tongue or try to silence her any longer.

I too thought there was little blood, but apparently the Standers and OP had gotten the towels to sop up the excess as well as the bags(don't know if OP ever found any rope or tape like he testified about) and we have to take into account that the blood wasn't just in the lobby, but all up the stairs and into the bedroom, bathroom and toilet room, as well as what looks to be a fair amount into the toilet. :/

 

[wb180]

That long long pause when Nel asks if he heard RS screaming after first shot is so telling. IMO, I think that was the moment when he needed to decide what he wanted to do...and he decided to shoot 3 more times and forever change his life.

I really hope Nel cracks him so we get the true and final version of events from OP...but I think this might be wishful thinking.

 

[molly333]

I had wondered about this.
Was it def rigor? Or was eeva's last act to indicate who her killer was?

Afterall if she was so obviously dead, why would Oscar be putting his fingers in her mouth?

Perhaps it is the guilty man act?
He was so intent on showing others that he was not a deliberate killer, that he pretended to help her after she was obviously dead.

But while she was alive, he sat over her body crying, but doing nothing to help her, until others unexpecdtedly were there.

yeah. The doctor knew she was dead and dead for a while, IMO. Oscar was either crazed out of his mind or in denial. He obviously didn't know what he was doing and was not attempting mouth to mouth resuscitation. It sounded to me like you couldn't even get her mouth open due to rigor, from the doc's description.

I don't know where he sat over her body. It wasn't in the bathroom, IMO.

Was there a blood spatter expert?

I always look at this kind of evidence, sorry if it is offensive. I want to know what happened.

 

[soozieqtips]

On Oscar's tears.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/04/11/oscar-pistorius-reeva-steenkamp-trial-crying/

 

[Freya1977]

yeah. The doctor knew she was dead and dead for a while, IMO. Oscar was either crazed out of his mind or in denial. He obviously didn't know what he was doing and was not attempting mouth to mouth resuscitation. It sounded to me like you couldn't even get her mouth open due to rigor, from the doc's description.

I don't know where he sat over her body. It wasn't in the bathroom, IMO.

Was there a blood spatter expert?

I always look at this kind of evidence, sorry if it is offensive. I want to know what happened.

She isn't going to have rigor after 15 to 30 minutes, even in facial muscles.

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[molly333]

Imo she definitely died upstairs in the toilet room. As for the arterial spurts, if her heart was still beating for a few minutes after that head shot, then for sure the last set of bangs were what killed her or there would be nothing but blood drops as her wounds drained while OP carried her downstairs and certainly no reason to either hold her tongue or try to silence her any longer.

I too thought there was little blood, but apparently the Standers and OP had gotten the towels to sop up the excess as well as the bags(don't know if OP ever found any rope or tape like he testified about) and we have to take into account that the blood wasn't just in the lobby, but all up the stairs and into the bedroom, bathroom and toilet room, as well as what looks to be a fair amount into the toilet. :/

I just looked at a picture of the blood spatter going down the stairs. That's not arterial blood, IMO. Did an expert say that? It looks to me like just flung droplets, maybe from her hair, as he is carrying her downstairs. It hits the wall and drips down.

I think the first set of bangs killed her. She died in the toilet room. He carried her out of there and downstairs as soon as he opened the door. IMO

 

[molly333]

She isn't going to have rigor after 15 to 30 minutes, even in facial muscles.

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The doc is describing rigor. What can I say?


Stipp continued: "I tried to assist her. So I tried to open the airway and look for any signs of life. She had no pulse in her neck, she had no peripheral pulse, she had no breathing movements that she made. She was clenching down on Oscar's fingers as he was trying to open her airway.

"I tried to do a jaw lift manoeuvre to open the airway. It was very difficult with the clenching down, and all during that time there wasn't any signs of life that I could see. I opened her right eyelid: the pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky – in other words, it was already drying out. So to me it was obvious she was mortally wounded".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-doctor-body-reeva-steenkamp


In other words, she was dead, and had been for some time.