trial thread: 04/03/2012

[KMouse]

That's what a normal person does!!! THEY CALL 911.

There's nothing NORMAL about these two <modsnip>. For Derstine to even try to normalize any of it and make it out like his client was just along for the ride is so far gone. Derstine would have been better off not suggesting any type of scenario.

 

[Ardy]

What about the fact that this poor child may have been alive when he helped to bury her in a pile of rocks? He was alone with Tori while TLM was in the Home Depot. That would have been his perfect chance to get help. But no, he drove closer to pick her up and popped the trunk for her and waited for her to get in and then he drove off down the highway..

The defense theory hasn't yet specified the time when TLM informed MR of the true purpose of VS presence with her. It could have been sometime after they were at Home Depot.

I am sure the defense will offer many more details when they have their chance.

 

[matou]

Earlier Tuesday, the jury heard from Ervin Bauman, owner of the land where Tori's body was discovered at the end of a laneway.
Bauman told the court the area is almost two kilometres from his home and is rarely used during the winter, although his children occasionally use the laneway when the weather is nice.
Bauman said the area was wet, slushy and covered with snow around the time Tori disappeared.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/04/03/rafferty-stafford-trial-tuesday.html

 

[KMouse]

Could they also examine decomposition fluids to see if it contained seminal fluid that would prove sexual activity?

I've wondered that myself and am going to ask around to see if I can get any answers.

 

[Shasta]

As I said before, I could see MR beating Tori in the car out of sight from TLM. This would be the reason why she laid limp and moaning on the ground outside his car. He knew he had done the worst damage and there was no turning back. He then placed the garbage bag over Tori's head knowing he could count on TLM to do the rest. All he would have had to do was hold out the hammer and being in the rage she was in, had no problem accepting that hammer. I would not be surprised if MR assisted with the kicking and stomping.

Respectfully snipped and bolded for reference

But TLM did not testify that MR beat Tori in any way ... TLM testified that TS was crying and called out to her to make him stop .... no reference at all in all of her testimony about him hitting TS in the face or elsewhere ... if you choose to believe TLM's story of a sexual assault, then you would have to believe that she would have said that MR was physically abusive with TS if that was true.

I do not understand why, with all of the terrible and horrific acts that were inflicted on TS including the taking of her very young life, it is not sufficient to be satisfied with the evidence and theories presented by experts at trial without theorizing in great detail of what more terrible things could have happened to her. I think that what we have heard in the courtroom is enough without theorizing about more possible attrocities having been inflicted upon TS.

It makes me ill to think about how that child suffered, let alone imagining more. To me it seems disrespectful to the memory of TS, the child, to propose additional indignities and abuses may have been inflicted upon her. I am concerned that after the trial is over it will be the exaggerated unsubstantiated stories of abuse that will be remembered when, IMO, it is quite enough to know what the evidence shows so far. This poor innocent child and should not be further sullied by innuendo IMO.

Whew!

Today the forensic expert added the additional detail that Tori was punched.

 

[~n/t~]

Should you choose to believe TLM's "testimony" then according to her graphic testimony about the two of them in the back seat of that little car, that is not how the rape occurred. I am fairly certain that the coroner that testified today was of the opinion that the broken ribs were the result of considerable force - i.e. kicking. It is unreasonable to therefore assume that the broken ribs were the result of the weight of his body on top of her when this is not what the evidence supports.

It is unlikely, in my opinion, that either of the broken ribs and fractured face were inflicted on TS by MR, but rather by the confessed and convicted murderess who is evidently evil enough to do such things in her supposed rage.

There is nothing in the evidence presented today to support the Crown's charges of sexual assault.

JMO

I disagree. I think a 200 lb man over an 8 year old little girl's body is enough to crush her ribs. The testimony said caused by compression. One tweet mentioned crushed.


com·press
&#8194; &#8194;[v. kuhm-pres; n. kom-pres] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to press together; force into less space.

2.
to cause to become a solid mass: to compress cotton into bales.

3.
to condense, shorten, or abbreviate: The book was compressed by 50 pages.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compress

 

[ChaChaCha]

Today the forensic expert added the additional detail that Tori was punched.

Shasta, this is not my post ....

But you can post a link to that detail if you have it please and thanks

 

[brighidin]

&#8207; @AM980_Court

• Tori was hit three times with the claw end of the hammer, once with the other end. Also punched, kicked, thrown on the ground.

Shasta, this is not my post ....

But you can post a link to that detail if you have it please and thanks

Okay, now I don't know who asked for the link re: the punching, but here it is from the AM980 twitter page. (If this multi quote thing works)

 

[ChaChaCha]

I disagree. I think a 200 lb man over an 8 year old little girl's body is enough to crush her ribs. The testimony said caused by compression. One tweet mentioned crushed.


com·press
&#8194; &#8194;[v. kuhm-pres; n. kom-pres] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to press together; force into less space.

2.
to cause to become a solid mass: to compress cotton into bales.

3.
to condense, shorten, or abbreviate: The book was compressed by 50 pages.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compress

I understand that but:

1. There has been no testimony by TLM that MR was on top of TS ... I am not going to go into the methodigy of the sexual assault as you can review it when you have time.

2. If I recall correctly, the Medical Examiner indicated that the broken ribs could have been caused by forceful kicks and the possibility that some of the ribs may have been broken as a result of the rocks being placed on top of her remains.

If you have a link to the tweet where the ME indicated it was from MRs body compressing TSs, I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[taagean]

IMO, just because Tori was found in a fetal position doesn't mean that she was in this position as she died. I'm sure they had to move her to get her body into the bags and may have purposely placed her that way.
It could have been to ensure she was completely covered by the bags.

 

[~n/t~]

I understand that but:

1. There has been no testimony by TLM that MR was on top of TS ... I am not going to go into the methodigy of the sexual assault as you can review it when you have time.

2. If I recall correctly, the Medical Examiner indicated that the broken ribs could have been caused by forceful kicks and the possibility that some of the ribs may have been broken as a result of the rocks being placed on top of her remains.

If you have a link to the tweet where the ME indicated it was from MRs body compressing TSs, I would be interested in seeing it.

You can read the tweets. We posted them all day. He said the broken ribs could have been caused by compression. Futhermore, he stated that Victoria was still alive. That leads to my reasonable conclusion that the rape occured whilst she was still alive, her ribs crushed and the fatal blows to the head with the hammer came later. As a juror I would consider this in deliberation as using common sense.

Of course, we will wait what the defence has to say on cross. I'll stick with my theory. Hope the jury does too.

 

[roseofsharon]

As I said before, I could see MR beating Tori in the car out of sight from TLM. This would be the reason why she laid limp and moaning on the ground outside his car. He knew he had done the worst damage and there was no turning back. He then placed the garbage bag over Tori's head knowing he could count on TLM to do the rest. All he would have had to do was hold out the hammer and being in the rage she was in, had no problem accepting that hammer. I would not be surprised if MR assisted with the kicking and stomping.

Respectfully snipped and bolded for reference

But TLM did not testify that MR beat Tori in any way ... TLM testified that TS was crying and called out to her to make him stop .... no reference at all in all of her testimony about him hitting TS in the face or elsewhere ... if you choose to believe TLM's story of a sexual assault, then you would have to believe that she would have said that MR was physically abusive with TS if that was true.

I do not understand why, with all of the terrible and horrific acts that were inflicted on TS including the taking of her very young life, it is not sufficient to be satisfied with the evidence and theories presented by experts at trial without theorizing in great detail of what more terrible things could have happened to her. I think that what we have heard in the courtroom is enough without theorizing about more possible attrocities having been inflicted upon TS.

It makes me ill to think about how that child suffered, let alone imagining more. To me it seems disrespectful to the memory of TS, the child, to propose additional indignities and abuses may have been inflicted upon her. I am concerned that after the trial is over it will be the exaggerated unsubstantiated stories of abuse that will be remembered when, IMO, it is quite enough to know what the evidence shows so far. This poor innocent child and should not be further sullied by innuendo IMO.

Whew!

Respectfully, I believe people want the truth, and JUSTICE!!!

This was, IMO, an execution style murder of a child and IMO there is a lot more to this story that we will never know regarding why.

It is absolutely beyond shocking to hear these details today and now know there was another PB/KH duo in the midst, who had a chance meeting, in a strip mall, one person in the pizza parlour, the other at the 7/11 and it culminated in this horror :banghead:

The truth needs to be told. People will say what they will regardless.

MOO

 

[Ardy]

I believe TLM's testimony that she killed VS.

Even boys at the age of 5..........know which end of the hammer to use.

I reject the theory that TLM admitted that she murdered VS to help the family, or because she was under MR's spell. She didn't concern herself when lying directly to the grieving family at her sentencing. She didn't show any remorse when talking to a family member after she was sent to jail.

She was in custody and knew she was going to have to testify.

She isn't entitled to discovery of evidence, and would have no way of knowing if the hammer had ever been recovered.

She "would" know whose fingerprints would be found on the hammer.

Hers and only hers.

I believe she didn't want to have to answer questions on the hammer in open court, with no opportunity to formulate a viable answer.

She confessed for her own selfish reasons.....JMO

 

[Salem]

Should you choose to believe TLM's "testimony" then according to her graphic testimony about the two of them in the back seat of that little car, that is not how the rape occurred. I am fairly certain that the coroner that testified today was of the opinion that the broken ribs were the result of considerable force - i.e. kicking. It is unreasonable to therefore assume that the broken ribs were the result of the weight of his body on top of her when this is not what the evidence supports.

It is unlikely, in my opinion, that either of the broken ribs and fractured face were inflicted on TS by MR, but rather by the confessed and convicted murderess who is evidently evil enough to do such things in her supposed rage.

There is nothing in the evidence presented today to support the Crown's charges of sexual assault.

JMO

The Dr. testified that Tori was found without some of her clothing. Clothing that, if missing, would indicate that a sexual assault occurred. This is circumstantial evidence. The jury will be asked to consider this evidence, along with the direct evidence, in determining what happened. So the Crown did present evidence of a sexual assault today to support the charges against MR and/or TLM.

Salem

 

[Hello_Kitty]

IMO, just because Tori was found in a fetal position doesn't mean that she was in this position as she died. I'm sure they had to move her to get her body into the bags and may have purposely placed her that way.
It could have been to ensure she was completely covered by the bags.

I disagree what that. Tori would have instinctually gone into a fetal position to protect herself from the beating, kicking, etc. She may not even have been aware she was doing it.

 

[swedie]

I doubt many normal people have ever found themselves in such a position, so I wouldn't know how to gauge a normal response.

I would have called 911 and stayed right there. I would have waited for the police, and expected to be arrested and charged, especially if TLM claimed that I did it. I would refuse to talk to the police and obtain a top lawyer. I would probably be on trial right now, instead of MR.

Still...........MR did take the cowardly way out. (if he is indeed innocent)

A NORMAL MALE WOULD NOT ALLOW A STRANGE FEMALE CHILD IN THEIR CAR, ESPECIALLY KNOWING HE IS HELPING OUT A DRUGGIE, PERVERSE FEMALE WITH A REVENGE PLOT. :moo: <modsnip> :moo:

 

[Juris_Prudence]

Or......MTR could have thrown VS to the ground, kicked her repeatedly, and then sat on her chest, pinning her armst to the ground, while he reigned blows down.

BBM: I agree, both are involved.

http://cdn.dipity.com/uploads/events/01ba5a29380fbff8e3daed7cee296a03_1M.png

I'm just wondering about Dr. Pollanen's testimony here. If it were possible that the injuries could have happened in the way proposed in the above post, wouldn't he have said so? Wouldn't the Crown have been likely to ask him that? I would have thought the Crown would ask if the injuries could have been caused in any other way, perhaps even specifically if they could have been caused while someone held her down as in the post above, because that would further their case that two people were responsible for the murder if the doctor agreed with that theory. The thing is though, this is NOT what the doctor stated. He made no mention as far as I know that anyone held her down or sat upon her as someone else gave the blows. :twocents:

 

[brighidin]

Yes, she did. What an interesting little detail to include. :waitasec: Why didn't they toss those caps in with the empty bottles and other evidence they removed from the scene? Sounds suspiciously like they were planted in there on purpose.

And if they did find MTR's fingerprints on them? It only proves that he was at the scene, which has already been suggested by the defence. Whether the water was drunk, or used to clean up, can never be determined. Either way, it proves nothing more than what has already been established. So far, at least.

JMO

BBM

Planted by whom? TLM? The person who told MTR that she would take the fall for him, the person that reneged her testimony to try and shift all the blame on herself? The junkie that was so high at the time of the crime?


And why immediately come up with a scenario that might explain away any hypothetical fingerprints? No one testified anything about the lids, other than to note that they were there.:waitasec:

I can understand wanting to keep an open mind throughout the trial, but this is really stretching it. IMO.

 

[Salem]

The defense may suggest that the scene was staged by TLM to look like a sexual assault and therefore deflect suspicion away from herself as a female ...

But really, who is there left to question about a possible rape? The coroner today indicated that the scope of his autopsy could not prove that a sexual assault had occurred. No one else is more qualified than him to speak to the matter.

I think that part is a wrap, at least as far as the autopsy goes. There may be more forensic evidence forthcoming though from the car.

To my thinking, without evidence to substantiate the Crown's allegations that MR abducted TS for nefarious purposes, the Crown cannot put forth his motive - he has NO PRIORS - so they can't go to past bad acts like they did with TLM, who was just full of anger and rage.

JMO

Typically - in the US anyway, the State would not have to prove motive to get a conviction. While knowing the motive is nice, it is not necessary. Besides - in all honesty - how could motive ever really be proven, unless there was a way to read a person's mind. Many times the motive is said to be money, a love triangle, etc. but without getting into the head of the person who committed the crime, that is really only speculation and a theory. I tend to think motive is always much more complicated than the label it is given.

Humans are complicated animals.

Salem

 

[ChaChaCha]

Respectfully, I believe people want the truth, and JUSTICE!!!

This was, IMO, an execution style murder of a child and IMO there is a lot more to this story that we will never know regarding why.

It is absolutely beyond shocking to hear these details today and now know there was another PB/KH duo in the midst, who had a chance meeting, in a strip mall, one person in the pizza parlour, the other at the 7/11 and it culminates in this horror :banghead:

The truth needs to be told. People will say what they will regardless.

MOO

Sorry, but I feel it is disrespectful to TS to speculate - no, <modsnip>, with what-ifs that are not based in fact. I have no problem discussing what the experts said in court, but it bothers me when despite the clear testimony of the ME <modsnip>- and attribute the abuse to MR with no basis in fact. I certainly would not want to be one of Tori's parents, having sat through today's testimony and suffering for every moment of it <modsnip>.

JMO