Trial Thread 4/5/2012

[Juris_Prudence]

Has anyone found any information about SKU numbers? I was unable to find anything that shows whether they are different on every single item, or the same for job lots and how often they are changed at the factory.

More importantly, why was the date on the Walmart receipt not mentioned? That, to me, is very significant. I hope the defence will bring this up.

As for the "Missing" posters for Tori: There must have been literally thousands of those floating around Woodstock and vicinity by then. I would bet that half the homes in town had one or more. I fail to see where this could be evidence of anything except that both TLM and MTR were aware of the disappearance ... as was everyone else in town.

JMO

If there was a missing person poster in his home, it could have been something his mom had brought into the home, not him. For that matter, was it even on display in the home or tucked into a drawer?:moo:

 

[Salem]

I could be wrong.......but I believe the legal theory is:

The Crown laid the charges against the accused.

The Crown has the duty to prove the accusations beyond a reasonable doubt.

The Crown has the full weight and resources of the government available to them to prove the accusations.

The accused has the right to know the details of the charges against them.

The defense is limited to refuting the evidence against the accused.

Although the defense may offer other plausible explanations for the evidence, they are not required to prove an alternative theory to the jury.

It is a careful balance of the power of the Crown and the rights of the accused.

I agree - but in the US, both sides have to share the evidence - it is called Discovery. The defense is required to give the State any evidence that exonerates their client - or any evidence they have that does not exonerate their client.

For exampe - if MR gave his attorney some piece of evidence (I'll say gun because we all know there was NO gun used and this is just an example), the attorney has to turn that gun over to the State. They can not hide it from the prosecution, they cannot wipe fingerprints off or destroy any evidence the gun may have on it. They don't have to say where they got the gun - but they have to share it with the prosecution. The defense also has to give the Prosecution any evidence they will be using in the trial to exonerate their client. And vice versa for the Prosecution - they must share with the defense all evidence they have that they will be using to prosecute.

Canada seems to be very similar to the states - so I was surprised that the defense would not have to share.

Salem

 

[Ardy]

Was stated that CM would pawn stuff people gave her for money. Wonder if this is how it is done if you want drugs but have no money...bring old furniture to her so she can pawn...and you get the drugs? IMO If that is the case then MTR mother was the dupe.

The pawnshop wouldn't take old furniture as collateral on a loan.

They will take DVDs, jewellry, electronics in good working order, tools, the sorts of things they can sell to make their money back and a profit.

IIRC, a pawnshop in Woodstock was raided in the past, and the owners charged with possession of stolen goods.

That was surprising to me, as I know the owner of a pawnshop in my city, and he supplies LE with a list of all items that are put on loan every day, simply for his own protection against charges of possession of stolen goods.

If the pawnshop in Woodstock kept proper records, LE should know what was used as collateral for a loan and by whom.

 

[crazyladi]

I think Derstine will continue to focus on the music as it tells a story of what happened to little TS. He wants to keep reminding them the type of person TLM was. I really dont think he has anything else to go on so I think that is all we will hear

There are many people that listen to Necro and I think that because of the words used in the song makes it relevant to what he is trying to prove. I dont think the music had anything to do with it personally.

The book that Ann rule wrote about the mother who tried to kill all three of her children but one survived they claimed the song "hungry like a wolf" was playing and that is what made her go crazy and try to kill her children. I just dont buy it.

I listen to Eminem and some of his lyrics are graphic but the song lose yourself does get me pumped for some reason. I just dont see any music getting someone that pumped up to commit a murder as bad as this one was.

Her focus was not on children it was on other adults anyone who had authority or anyone that dissed her.

What needs to be established is the real reason TS was kidnapped to begin with. I still dont think it was random at all. Then it comes to the car drive, who really said what about purchasing the bags and hammer, then the sexual assault did it really happen? And if we all really believe that TLM killed Tori.

If I go by what I have heard I have no choice but to believe that it was TLM because of her anger issues, but why would she do it? I just dont get it.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

I am deducing from this that the same UPC code is used for the exact same product until the packaging is changed. By "exact same", I mean same manufacturer, same colour, sold within a set time frame. So, if I bought that particular shade, made by that company, even at a different store, but within that time period, the UPC code would be the same as on the receipt found in MTR's home. Therefore, I still think that the date purchased is more significant than the SKU.

But, I don't doubt he purchased both those boxes of hair dye and one was left for TLM.

However, my big question is why would anyone, especially MTR, put the receipt for such inexpensive items in a drawer and keep it for three months? I doubt he was planning to return or exchange them. I keep receipts for items I might have to return and for big-ticket stuff like TVs, appliances, computers, etc. Doesn't make sense to me why he didn't just throw this receipt into the garbage.

JMO

Maybe his mother had become exasperated and scolded him that if he was going to move back home the least he could do is pick up after himself...so in haste he just shoved the reciept in the drawer?

 

[Allanae]

About the receipt. I usually leave my plastic shopping bags in a drawer for use when needed. A lot of times I find my non-important receipts in the bottom of one of the bags when I take them out to use. Or maybe he was saving his receipts for tax-write offs since he supposedly owned his own business....

 

[giantalkinghead]

Question for the sleuths... I was surprised that the police denied knowing about the EOA gang when questioned by the defense. I know that there was a link here recently to a newspaper article about the gang problems in London and it spoke about East of Adelaide. Anyone have a link ?

 

[JayFriend]

Or maybe he was saving his receipts for tax-write offs since he supposedly owned his own business....

Yeah, being a "contractor" and all. I guess Mike <modsnip> saved the receipts for his earrings and necklace. :yesss:

 

[giantalkinghead]

It's highly possible MR listened to the same music. Maybe TLM introduced him to the music and HE suggested the act a song out together? I hope LE was able to find his laptop. Let's see where TLM got her music from and what kinda music MR listened to. LE never found his laptop at his mom's house. I wonder where that laptop is? Hopefully LE were able to find it. Maybe in those bags he put into JW's car? :waitasec::moo:

Question bolded above.... Where did you read that MR had a laptop that police were looking for... ??? Do you have a link to support this ??

 

[Allanae]

Yeah, being a "contractor" and all. I guess Mike <modsnip> saved the receipts for his earrings and necklace. :yesss:

Or hair products for his pro dancing costumes!

 

[nobodyzgirl]

They had the ipod for almost 3yrs and didn't examine it until a few days ago? :waitasec:

I think because the defence has scared them with all the questions regarding the music TLM was listening to the day of the abduction, they went back to see what was on the iPod in case one of the songs he was referring to was there, and if not they could comment that those songs weren't there, which to me doesn't really matter, because she could have deleted them off the iPod the day of or even the day after the abduction- JMO.

 

[captaincanada]

...
There are many people that listen to Necro and I think that because of the words used in the song makes it relevant to what he is trying to prove. I dont think the music had anything to do with it personally.

The book that Ann rule wrote about the mother who tried to kill all three of her children but one survived they claimed the song "hungry like a wolf" was playing and that is what made her go crazy and try to kill her children. I just dont buy it.

I listen to Eminem and some of his lyrics are graphic but the song lose yourself does get me pumped for some reason. I just dont see any music getting someone that pumped up to commit a murder as bad as this one was.

I don't think the defence is necessarily trying to suggest that the music made TLM do anything, they are simply trying to drill into the juror's heads TLM's character.....Here is a nasty piece of work, a wannabe gangster, someone who listens to hard, violent, disturbing gangster rap, someone who writes disturbing, violent, sadistic letters about killing and raping and torturing others. Someone who has a known history of violence and trouble with the law.Someone who also has just testified to "savagely killing that little girl". Someone who is on video abducting that same girl. Someone who is on video buying the murder weapon used to kill that same girl.

Now here is MTR, someone who has NO criminal record, NO history of violence, someone who doesn't listen to violent gangster rap (that we know of). Someone who is NOT on video leading a girl away from school, is NOT on video buying a murder weapon. Someone who the crown can't prove that he sexually assaulted Tori. etc. etc. Someone who simply is guilty of getting mixed up with the wrong "murderous *****".

The defence doesn't have to prove that TLM did everything, they just have to prove that there is reasonable doubt about the charges, and so far, there is reasonable doubt.

 

[Bravo]

Perhaps MR was just arrogant enough to think he would never be looked at let alone his house searched. Speaking to the items found in his Mothers home. Felt he got rid of enough to feel confident yet not have to explain why certain things would be missing from the home. I cant help but wonder if he had TLM right where he wanted her. She would do anything for him. She had her own agenda and he had his. Was he more than happy to send her into Home Depot for the items? Knowing it would be her on video?

 

[greenthumb]

I could be wrong.......but I believe the legal theory is:

The Crown laid the charges against the accused.

The Crown has the duty to prove the accusations beyond a reasonable doubt.

The Crown has the full weight and resources of the government available to them to prove the accusations.

The accused has the right to know the details of the charges against them.

The defense is limited to refuting the evidence against the accused.

Although the defense may offer other plausible explanations for the evidence, they are not required to prove an alternative theory to the jury.

It is a careful balance of the power of the Crown and the rights of the accused.

I believe this is correct unless the defence intends to offer an alibi, in which case they are required to disclose the alibi in sufficient time that LE can investigate it... that is just my understanding of it. And in this case, it is not relevant because the defence does not appear to be denying that MR was there.

I think that may be why LE had not investigated the contents of the Ipod until recently, because the Crown had not identified music as having any relevance, and did not know that the defence would put such a focus on it until it came up in court.

I also think that the Crown is obliged to turn over all evidence LE collected, whether it is to be used by the prosecution or not... and whether it supports their case or not... which would mean the defence may decide there is 'relevance' in items that the Crown did not find relevance in.

All just MOO and those more familiar with the Canadian legal system may need to correct my understanding of it.

Thx again to all those tweeting.

 

[Sailor Bug]

Police allege #Rafferty bought hair dye for him & McC to conceal their identities after the murder

Rafferty had asked McClintic to "change her appearance", according to her testimony.

The Michael #Rafferty trial will resume at 2pm w more evidence about what was seized from his car, believed to be used in abduction

The dye was purchased after #ToriStafford's disappearance. I think it's meant to speak more about post-offence conduct


when will todays evidance be able to view?
we never know until the end of the day what evidence we will be given. I assume all of this evidence from today will be presented to us after 4:30.

I thought the Honda was the one in the video at home depot? When did the Accord come in the picture
Mike Knoll: @estelle - the Accord belongs to a friend of Rafferty's.
He was getting into the accord just before they arrested him, so they seized it as well.

 

[swedie]

If there was a missing person poster in his home, it could have been something his mom had brought into the home, not him. For that matter, was it even on display in the home or tucked into a drawer?:moo:

Maybe MR's fingerprints are found on the poster? :floorlaugh:

 

[nobodyzgirl]

Obviously Derstine was away when that memo came in Oldsoul2 :what: jmo

Defence's job is to create create reasonable doubt for his client, the more he can't point the finger at TLM the better it is for his client - if he can present that she is nothing but evil it could create reasonable doubt that MR was a willing participant in the crimes for which he is charged - JMO.

 

[snoofer]

The pawnshop wouldn't take old furniture as collateral on a loan.

They will take DVDs, jewellry, electronics in good working order, tools, the sorts of things they can sell to make their money back and a profit.

IIRC, a pawnshop in Woodstock was raided in the past, and the owners charged with possession of stolen goods.

That was surprising to me, as I know the owner of a pawnshop in my city, and he supplies LE with a list of all items that are put on loan every day, simply for his own protection against charges of possession of stolen goods.

If the pawnshop in Woodstock kept proper records, LE should know what was used as collateral for a loan and by whom.

that is not what i am saying. If someone brought something to CM ie and old sofa or desk of theirs and CM determined she could get X dollars for it at the pawn shop...did she give them that amount or less in drugs.:twocents:

 

[snoofer]

I don't think the defence is necessarily trying to suggest that the music made TLM do anything, they are simply trying to drill into the juror's heads TLM's character.....Here is a nasty piece of work, a wannabe gangster, someone who listens to hard, violent, disturbing gangster rap, someone who writes disturbing, violent, sadistic letters about killing and raping and torturing others. Someone who has a known history of violence and trouble with the law.Someone who also has just testified to "savagely killing that little girl". Someone who is on video abducting that same girl. Someone who is on video buying the murder weapon used to kill that same girl.

Now here is MTR, someone who has NO criminal record, NO history of violence, someone who doesn't listen to violent gangster rap (that we know of). Someone who is NOT on video leading a girl away from school, is NOT on video buying a murder weapon. Someone who the crown can't prove that he sexually assaulted Tori. etc. etc. Someone who simply is guilty of getting mixed up with the wrong "murderous *****".

The defence doesn't have to prove that TLM did everything, they just have to prove that there is reasonable doubt about the charges, and so far, there is reasonable doubt.

...but it's not workin':floorlaugh:

 

[Salem]

I think because the defence has scared them with all the questions regarding the music TLM was listening to the day of the abduction, they went back to see what was on the iPod in case one of the songs he was referring to was there, and if not they could comment that those songs weren't there, which to me doesn't really matter, because she could have deleted them off the iPod the day of or even the day after the abduction- JMO.

I think you could be right here. If I remember correctly, it was tweeted that the Judge asked the crown if they were going to provide a list of the songs that were unnamed on the ipod. There are several "tracks" listed, but that is all it says - doesn't say if it is music, or a podcast, or just an audio file, or what. I think the Judge thinks the jury needs that info. Hopefully, the crown is pulling it all together.

Salem