GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[Fantazteko]

I can totally understand this train of thought, however if the killer was Z and this case is similar to the one you mentioned, we have to consider a few things.

Z had been to prison before for petty crimes. I would think because of this, they have a lot of information on him. We have not read that any of his previous crimes were violent in nature. But rather that his previous crimes were actually done to get him a shelter and food during the cold winters. If someone was a serial killer I would think they would avoid prison at all cost, preferring to keep their name off the radar of the law. I wouldn't think a serial killer, would commit petty crimes to put himself in jail for shelter.

Also his DNA was found under SS's finger nails. If he had done this before and multiple times, I would think at least one of two things, either he would have figured out by now how to avoid being scratched by the victim in order to avoid DNA under the nails, or that several of his there victims would also have had his DNA under their nails, and this DnA would be evidence in other cases, on a national data base, and when Z's DNA was found as a match to SS, they would have also seen it matched other cold cases.

I stand corrected.

I suppose by now Turkish police would have informed the public what kind of criminal Ziya is, and if he were indeed related to any other murders.

But I think no matter which country you’re dealing with, law enforcement would have a database like AFIS. It’s strange that evidence didn’t lead them to Ziya sooner, and that they had to get samples from his sister’s home.

If he is a known criminal, wouldn’t there be some kind of information on him after being booked, even for petty crimes?

These people use aliases, they are the most dishonest and deceptive. False names is one way to avoid capture. How this or if this even factors in Ziya’s background is something we don’t know yet.

Also, each victim is different, so I imagine such criminals target people without knowing what kind of struggle might follow.

I think we’re all familiar with how often family and friends, sometimes even neighbors, tend to speak only of those redeeming qualities convicted criminals possess.

We don’t know enough about this case, or the suspect(s). I’m not exactly saying Ziya is a serial killer, but it also shouldn’t be easily dismissed.

The person who committed this crime could be anyone and anything, passing himself off as a saint, like many criminals do. Sometimes they are rotting in prison when more crimes are attributed to them after many years. We don’t know enough about Ziya’s criminal history.

I’ve read your posts and theory, and believe that if Ziya were recruited by professionals, they wouldn’t take any chances by allowing him to live and become a potential witness.

He probably would be seeking police protection by now if he was fearful for his life, and attempting to minimize the minor role he played. If he is indeed not a violent person, or harmless and meek as so many speaking in his behalf claim, why does he refuse to turn himself in?

I think someone like that would be trying to clear his name, rather than incriminating himself.

 

[Yashim]

Totally depends on where they are sent. My ex boyfriend was assigned to help illiterate soldiers learn to read and write while he was doing his military service.

"where they are sent"?

figuratively speaking yes.

allocation of conscripts to units are completely random. any illiterate private can end up anywhere. and the commanding officer of any platoon can ask an officer (NCO) to teach the illiterate privates how to read and write.

it's not always a formal arrangement, if at all.

happens anywhere and everywhere.

 

[StCirq]

If this is one of the most brutal murders ever in Istanbul, possibly in Turkey, as so many have been saying, wouldn't there be the equivalent of a blizzard of WANTED! posters between Istanbul and the Syrian border and maybe along the likely route to Iran? Not to mention photos of Z all over the newscasts (maybe they're doing that - I dunno). I know the LE's been saying they don't want to release much information, but wouldn't you want to increase exponentially the number of people who might catch sight of him and come forth with more details?

 

[ThinkHard]

:banghead:

I stand corrected.

I suppose by now Turkish police would have informed the public what kind of criminal Ziya is, and if he were indeed related to any other murders.

But I think no matter which country you’re dealing with, law enforcement would have a database like AFIS. It’s strange that evidence didn’t lead them to Ziya sooner, and that they had to get samples from his sister’s home.

If he is a known criminal, wouldn’t there be some kind of information on him after being booked, even for petty crimes?

These people use aliases, they are the most dishonest and deceptive. False names is one way to avoid capture. How this or if this even factors in Ziya’s background is something we don’t know yet.

Also, each victim is different, so I imagine such criminals target people without knowing what kind of struggle might follow.

I think we’re all familiar with how often family and friends, sometimes even neighbors, tend to speak only of those redeeming qualities convicted criminals possess.

We don’t know enough about this case, or the suspect(s). I’m not exactly saying Ziya is a serial killer, but it also shouldn’t be easily dismissed.

The person who committed this crime could be anyone and anything, passing himself off as a saint, like many criminals do. Sometimes they are rotting in prison when more crimes are attributed to them after many years. We don’t know enough about Ziya’s criminal history.

I’ve read your posts and theory, and believe that if Ziya were recruited by professionals, they wouldn’t take any chances by allowing him to live and become a potential witness.

He probably would be seeking police protection by now if he was fearful for his life, and attempting to minimize the minor role he played. If he is indeed not a violent person, or harmless and meek as so many speaking in his behalf claim, why does he refuse to turn himself in?

I think someone like that would be trying to clear his name, rather than incriminating himself.

I follow you but I don't agree with your last few points. I think going along with my theory, that Ziya fled not from law but from these people who he knew would kill him if he spoke. He fled Istanbul, then fled turkey all together. As far as they would be concerned he is dead.

I definetly do not think a homeless man with his DNA at the scene would go turn himself in and willingly rat out potentially powerful people. No way no how! The fact he is running to me is not an indication of guilt nor is not seeking protection from the police. He definetly would not feel like the police could or would protect him against people like that. No Way!

Ps if I put that head banging guy there, I'm sorry it wasnt on purpose....don't take it personally!

 

[Blackydress]

Before SS was found the hostel owner told one of the reporters "I don`t want to give you my contact info. because when her husband arrives here and the conversation goes emotional I don`t want trouble` I wonder what he meant.
Again in a video a postman said "I brought an envelope from US for her she was not there the houseowner was in her room and he took the envelope" This was when she was lost.
The woman witness who came forward, why was she refuted? We don`t know.
The sister of Z said "we watched this on TV and Z. said "this is really bad for Turkey why steal phone and ipad? They can not be used or sold here?" Did he know already or did he find this out after taking them and trying to sell them?
Other homeless people said Z. had scratches on his face, friends in Karabuk said "no scratches just a cut above his ear" and concluded that "he can not slaughter a chicken"
Finally I will mention the statements of an ex LE chief and an expert in a TV show we watched. It is called "Crime and Evidence" They had a 2 hours program on this. He said if she was and agent or a drug courier it does not end like this. she would just disappear and never be found. He also concluded that LE is known to spread wrong information while waiting and searching or the real killer.
Your guesses are as good as mine.

 

[alabaster]

Ok, here is a crazy theory from me.

The craziest part is that Z afterall is not as evil as we think him to be.

When SS is taking photos, Z approaches SS, SS panics, screams.

Or she is not even afraid of Z but sees the druggies grouping behind. That's why she might have screamed.

Hearing S scream, Z also panics, since he doesn't speak any English so he can't tell SS that he means no harm.

He tries to cover SS's mouth. SS scrathes his face.

He gets mad, they struggle and he ends up killing her.

...

It's possible. Would explain why Z hasn't been known for similar deeds before.

 

[Fantazteko]

:banghead:

I follow you but I don't agree with your last few points. I think going along with my theory, that Ziya fled not from law but from these people who he knew would kill him if he spoke. He fled Istanbul, then fled turkey all together. As far as they would be concerned he is dead.

I definetly do not think a homeless man with his DNA at the scene would go turn himself in and willingly rat out potentially powerful people. No way no how! The fact he is running to me is not an indication of guilt nor is not seeking protection from the police. He definetly would not feel like the police could or would protect him against people like that. No Way!

Ps if I put that head banging guy there, I'm sorry it wasnt on purpose....don't take it personally!

Well, but we can also argue the point that he has less reason to doubt in police protection, especially now when there is international scrutiny working in his favor. Many people would be thankful if he helped solve the case, and would hold law enforcement accountable for any agreements or promises made between both parties.

I know little with regards to police corruption in Istanbul, but I’m sure it exists there like everywhere else. So maybe I am wrong in assuming Ziya could use media attention to his favor, by hiring a lawyer or requesting assistance from some politician.

We are willing to give Ziya the benefit of the doubt and say he fully understands the threat posed by this criminal organization, but we can’t at the same time underestimate the threat he himself poses.

If he is really so streetwise, and is fleeing the people who hired him due to their influence and power, is he also not smart enough to maybe understand the influence and power of the media? Somebody else could assist him. He is in a position to help himself.

 

[Meri]

And you couldn't remember the latest age for the military service? Couldn't remember?

ThinkHard, why on earth did you even need to learn that in the first place?

You are really scaring me.

Sometimes you sound like the Temperance "Bones" character that Emily Deschanel plays in Bones.

Unless you're some FBI agent or something, I find it odd that you know so much. Odder than all the odd things in this case.

And may be you are.

Perhaps your real name is something like Temperance Winkhard.

Agent Winkhard from FBI's Middle East Division.

That makes sense.

Seeing that we were getting off track, you nudged us in the right direction with your latest theory.

"Ok guys, I have an admittedly crazy theory...."

Really? Perhaps that's not even your theory. You were just copying and pasting it from the most recent report sitting in front of you.

And splitting it into two separate posts just to make us think that you were actually typing it was a nice touch!

But we are smart, Agent Winkhard.

Just way too smart for FBI.

I really wish there were other choices to click on with posts besides "thanks" - like "you are freakin' HILARIOUS" - LOL

 

[english]

First, he is not Almighty, he is Alpmighty. Almighty is someone else.

Secondly, I looked again, but couldn't find any news about the identity of that woman.

But Sarayburnu is a famous spot where most dead bodies surface.

I also know of a rumor that Sultan Ibrahim (1615-1648) had 300 concubines of his harem put into sacks and thrown into the sea at Sarayburnu.

Sarayburnu is like a gateway to the Other Side.

...

Too common an occurence to be worth more than a line in a newspaper. There was another woman's body recovered from the same spot on 21 February. All that is known about her is aged 30-35. Likely, will never be identified.

 

[Rolandred]

Thanks you for this. And what happened to this woman who was a witness, came forward she saw a man taking out a body, a woman's hand? LE refuted this too. Very confusing indeed.

Yes, the more LE refutes the supposedly 5% of what is put out there initially - the more one tends to disbelieve anything anymore. Maybe that is a tactic to make it all go away. The media gets frustrated, the pubic loses interest, and Z is lost somewhere between Syria, Turkey, and Iran...Apathy. Maybe one could even start to confirm a belief he did it - or disbelieve he did it and simply fled. The IG friends are forgotten. The homeless drug addicts are back at the walls. Tourism continues. The truth is sought by some (media,journalists,websleuths) but without any means of access to any real evidence there is only speculation.

I hope the truth will be pursued by those who seek it and LE will reveal what really happened or at least some facts - that is- if they even really know, or do they? Does the public deserve to know? Will time tell? Maybe in the end, all we need to know is...when in Istanbul - don't go the the ancient walls- period.

 

[SANDOVAL]

Too common an occurence to be worth more than a line in a newspaper. There was another woman's body recovered from the same spot on 21 February. All that is known about her is aged 30-35. Likely, will never be identified.

??? Which spot? was she also wearing yet another red shirt?
This is getting way too complicated now.
Do you have a link please?

 

[SANDOVAL]

??? Which spot? was she also wearing yet another red shirt?
This is getting way too complicated now.
Do you have a link please?

PLEASE? lease:

 

[Rolandred]

Too common an occurence to be worth more than a line in a newspaper. There was another woman's body recovered from the same spot on 21 February. All that is known about her is aged 30-35. Likely, will never be identified.

Really? MMMmmm...link?

 

[pbj]

Okay here's a theory (a guess) to bat around, if so inclined. The picture of SS standing in bell bottoms the last day,wasn't that near Kennedy Ave, at a take-out food place. She looked like she felt self-conscious and was waitng for someone...let's assume she did feel self-conscious, and she wanted to look like she was waiting for someone, but what she was really waiting for was a respectable group to follow to the cave area for photos.

She is walking alone in one of those last videos. Was she trying to catch up to a group to follow and tag along with to the cave area. Did they cross the street later, and she followed them, but then got caught up in her photo opportunity and was left alone. Just some guesses.

 

[ozma]

PLEASE? lease:

I did a Google search using some keywords and found this:
http://www.sabah.com.tr/Yasam/2013/02/21/denizden-kadin-cesedi-cikti

I'm not sure if it's the one english was referring to or not, but the date of the story and the age of the victim are the same. The location -- Beyoğlu Sütlüce -- seems different, but I don't really know where it is. We can check it on a map. There is nothing about a red shirt or any other detailed description. It says the body was in the water for about 48 hours. At the end of the article it notes a man's body found at yet another location the same day, I think.

Again I just looked at this fast and my Turkish is far from perfect. I'll take another look later and get back if I have any corrections or find additional relevant info.

 

[english]

??? Which spot? was she also wearing yet another red shirt?
This is getting way too complicated now.
Do you have a link please?

Need to go to bed now but will have a look for report tomorrow. Was literally one line in a turkish newspaper. No mention of a red t-shirt!

 

[ThinkHard]

Well, but we can also argue the point that he has less reason to doubt in police protection, especially now when there is international scrutiny working in his favor. Many people would be thankful if he helped solve the case, and would hold law enforcement accountable for any agreements or promises made between both parties.

I know little with regards to police corruption in Istanbul, but I’m sure it exists there like everywhere else. So maybe I am wrong in assuming Ziya could use media attention to his favor, by hiring a lawyer or requesting assistance from some politician.

We are willing to give Ziya the benefit of the doubt and say he fully understands the threat posed by this criminal organization, but we can’t at the same time underestimate the threat he himself poses.

If he is really so streetwise, and is fleeing the people who hired him due to their influence and power, is he also not smart enough to maybe understand the influence and power of the media? Somebody else could assist him. He is in a position to help himself.

The media has given so much false information. I seriously doubt Z would believe in the power of the media. I seriously doubt most people would believe the power of the media.

I really do not think Z would have any reason in the world to trust the media or the police. His DNA is under her nails, he knows he will be crucified by both.

Also, ok, this is my opinion from my experience, and I really don't want to offend anyone, but in my time in Istanbul I have known some very very very wealthy Turks, like media moguls, and builders of big projects, and friends of Erdogan.
One thing about Turkey that I think is different then it is in US, is that money is power. People with money, will be kind to everyone, but there is a huge divide in how the haves view the have nots. Wealth in Turkey seems to define people's importance even more then it does in the US, and I'm not saying it doesn't in the US, it just seems to be a much thicker dividing line in Turkey.

Z has nothing, he comes from nothing, he knows this, he knows he has no power, no politician that is going to sympathize with him, no media who is going to save him. To put it bluntly he knows his place in Turkish society, and he knows he's at the bottom.

 

[english]

I did a Google search using some keywords and found this:
http://www.sabah.com.tr/Yasam/2013/02/21/denizden-kadin-cesedi-cikti

I'm not sure if it's the one english was referring to or not, but the date of the story and the age of the victim are the same. The location -- Beyoğlu Sütlüce -- seems different, but I don't really know where it is. We can check it on a map. There is nothing about a red shirt or any other detailed description. It says the body was in the water for about 48 hours. At the end of the article it notes a man's body found at yet another location the same day, I think.

Again I just looked at this fast and my Turkish is far from perfect. I'll take another look later and get back if I have any corrections or find additional relevant info.

Could be the same incident but is definitely upwater from the report I read which stated Sarayburnu. I will find my report and compare.

 

[Fantazteko]

The media has given so much false information. I seriously doubt Z would believe in the power of the media. I seriously doubt most people would believe the power of the media.

I really do not think Z would have any reason in the world to trust the media or the police. His DNA is under her nails, he knows he will be crucified by both.

Also, ok, this is my opinion from my experience, and I really don't want to offend anyone, but in my time in Istanbul I have known some very very very wealthy Turks, like media moguls, and builders of big projects, and friends of Erdogan.
One thing about Turkey that I think is different then it is in US, is that money is power. People with money, will be kind to everyone, but there is a huge divide in how the haves view the have nots. Wealth in Turkey seems to define people's importance even more then it does in the US, and I'm not saying it doesn't in the US, it just seems to be a much thicker dividing line in Turkey.

Z has nothing, he comes from nothing, he knows this, he knows he has no power, no politician that is going to sympathize with him, no media who is going to save him. To put it bluntly he knows his place in Turkish society, and he knows he's at the bottom.

I see your point about the media, and Ziya’s unlikelihood of establishing connections. As was stated earlier, my knowledge of Turkey is limited.

But you’ve given us all something to ponder.

We’ve all painted Ziya as a nobody, scum of the earth and so on, which begs the question why such an individual would agree to get involved in the first place, assuming he knew of these shady characters enough to fear them.

He would never hurt a fly is what people who know him say. He is just a small-time crook.

So much hearsay and uncorroborated evidence, the little we know of that is.

Possibly he was coerced, or his and his family members lives were threatened, in order to ensure his cooperation.

Or he got himself involved not knowing all the facts.

He is on the run now, from the police and/or these so-called others, which probably means he’s dead. We can’t believe the same people who allegedly hired him care about his life, easiest thing would be to eliminate the threat, which should’ve been done hastily.

Anyhow, there isn’t sufficient information to support either theory.

Random killing makes more sense to me.

If as you theorize someone with so much money is involved, why would they hire a no-good junkie indigent stranger? I’m sure wealthy people in Turkey who would find themselves in such a dilemma would know better than to involve an inexperienced, untrustworthy possible mentalcase in covering up a murder.

They could afford anybody else, and would probably have no compunctions about paying a high price.

Perhaps time was against them, and they settled for Ziya's promises to do a good job.

I’ve given enough consideration to your theory, and appreciate your words. But now I feel like I need to step aside.

Excuse me if I seemed a bit skeptical. A little healthy skepticism is good for us all.

Hopefully there’s some upcoming information that will clarify this whole mess.

I am still confused as to why Ziya’s DNA was linked to him only after investigators visited his sister’s house. They were mentioning some facts about his cave, and that the crime occurred nearby. It’s unclear if they had DNA evidence that was linked to him early on.

Really strange.

 

[ThinkHard]

I see your point about the media, and Ziya’s unlikelihood of establishing connections. As was stated earlier, my knowledge of Turkey is limited.

But you’ve given us all something to ponder.

We’ve all painted Ziya as a nobody, scum of the earth and so on, which begs the question why such an individual would agree to get involved in the first place, assuming he knew of these shady characters enough to fear them.

He would never hurt a fly is what people who know him say. He is just a small-time crook.

So much hearsay and uncorroborated evidence, the little we know of that is.

Possibly he was coerced, or his and his family members lives were threatened, in order to ensure his cooperation.

Or he got himself involved not knowing all the facts.

He is on the run now, from the police and/or these so-called others, which probably means he’s dead. We can’t believe the same people who allegedly hired him care about his life, easiest thing would be to eliminate the threat, which should’ve been done hastily.

Anyhow, there isn’t sufficient information to support either theory.

Random killing makes more sense to me.

If as you theorize someone with so much money is involved, why would they hire a no-good junkie indigent stranger? I’m sure wealthy people in Turkey who would find themselves in such a dilemma would know better than to involve an inexperienced, untrustworthy possible mentalcase in covering up a murder.

They could afford anybody else, and would probably have no compunctions about paying a high price.

Perhaps time was against them, and they settled for Ziya's promises to do a good job.

I’ve given enough consideration to your theory, and appreciate your words. But now I feel like I need to step aside.

Excuse me if I seemed a bit skeptical. A little healthy skepticism is good for us all.

Hopefully there’s some upcoming information that will clarify this whole mess.

I am still confused as to why Ziya’s DNA was linked to him only after investigators visited his sister’s house. They were mentioning some facts about his cave, and that the crime occurred nearby. It’s unclear if they had DNA evidence that was linked to him early on.

Really strange.

They would hire him, presumably because even at the risk of him talking, it is far less likely anyone would believe him.

And if they had to kill him, its far less likely anyone would miss him, or spend time looking for him.