TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #1

[CARIIS]

Waiting for the time when enough will finally be enough. Don't think I'll live that long.

I agree sadly

how come it seems like it has recently become a fad to stop giving us status info in these horrors

How many critical

stable

dced

etc

prognosis of injured

 

[Inthedetails]

MSNBC the charges were filed in a wrong county -- the way it was worded implied it may have had some reason why he was not flagged

CNN he was denied gun lisc in TX?

Msnbc apparently the charge was very very very serious so I think we will find out so intense stuff as it relates to the battery charges /event.

It sounds as if he might have been out of control to batter your child in the event as well .

Yes, and Wife #1 divorced him - so it was bad enough, and she was smart enough, to leave. That is telling as well. Not all battered partners leave, though with the child also involved, the decision is easier, of course.

jmo

 

[SCHMAE]

**Speculation ahead** Every atheist I have ever met (granted that is not a huge number but several) had been injured by the church in some way. Psychological scarring in the religious circles is very real even in the absence of any physical abuse.
I have a very deeply radical Pentecostal ( Assembly of God, very fear based teaching) extended family. If someone is depressed or nervous, it's the Devil....end of story. Pray harder and it will go away. You left yourself open to the Devil by not having enough faith. You did not go to church enough, do enough good acts, stop sinning enough and left yourself vulnerable to Devil attacks. So If at any time this perp was feeling mentally unstable in the past and got that kind of treatment I can easily see a deep anger welling up inside against religion and anyone who supported it. It's a no win situation and leaves people in complete mental bondage.
I am not suggesting that the EX's family subscribed to this type of belief or that they behaved in that way at all. I have just thought of dozens of ways that people can be so twisted by the church as to have raging suppressed anger about it. Add alcohol/ drugs and you have a real problem.

ETA Add on the fact that nearly everyone has to have some specific THING to blame all of their problems on ( church, x , mayor, teacher, boss, etc) and making that thing pay for all your troubles in life may look appealing. **speculation**

 

[CARIIS]

Federal law prohibits a person who has been dishonorably discharged from buying a firearm. Whether Kelley's discharge would trigger the law was not immediately clear.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/was...s-shooter-was-court-1509937194-htmlstory.html

IMO these folks are not all that concerned if it is legal or illegal to have anything ... just not a concern ....anyone can get what they want here

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Its kinda starting to feel as if we might be heading into delusional territory

He claims he taught bible school ruminates over others religious beliefs drives to a church

The inlaw angle IMO might fit in at some level but it certainly sounds like there was a profound religious component to much of his life - that is scattered.

Out in the middle of nowhere the need to body armour is somewhat peculiar too. The town pop is 600 so its not like in reality

he is gonna encounter sophisticted SWAT entities.

I don't know paranoia that religious people are after him? Or must be killed cause a voice told him to , or something like he is saving everyone - just delusional stuff>>>


just pondering

and then in a lot of these it seems like somehow these folks find the money for all the stuff --it sure sounds as if he was dressed like all tactical which seems to fit more with bizarre thinking and believing

moo

Snipped

Speaking of delusional...
Earlier I mentioned an acquaintance on Facebook who posted all kinds of tactical gear. I blocked him for awhile. He also lives in a town of 600. After some weird behavior (angry with the town over a non issue, calling the cops on people over a flag, veiled threats to anyone who tried to approach the situation rationally, etc.), I went to his profile to see what his deal was. I clicked on his public photos of weapons and tactical gear, and looked at the comments. One comment was like, "Um, why? What are you going to do with all that stuff?" His response was that he was ready for Al Qaeda.

No one bothered to comment after that. I suspect his friends were creeped out by his thinking. Because who needs to be ready for Al Qaeda in a village of 600 in the middle of the heartland?

As to your comment about him possibly thinking religious people are after him, I keep thinking that it's not religious people per se, but this particular congregation . I don't think they were after him, but I do suspect he saw them as partly culpable in the end of his marriage if they acted as a support system for his wife and helped give her the courage to leave him, supported her decision.

Obviously MO.

I believe there are often signs that someone may snap, and the church members perhaps recognized this and attempted to save her from him.

But like the guy I mentioned above, even though it will absolutely not surprise me if he ends up killing someone someday, there isn't a thing anyone can do about it right now to my knowledge. At the moment, he's just a creepy local guy who seems melodramatic and likes guns a lot. Can't lock him up for that.

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[Subiechik21]

I've been checking on friends and so far no one I know personally has been injured. One of my friends said that the pastor is her neighbor. And another friend said that his friend had died. This is so sad and scary! It could have been my town. I live in Guadalupe county and I'm thinking he probably drove really close to my house to get to Sutherland Springs from New Braunfels. By the way New Braunfels is a city not a suburb of San Antonio like I have seen reported in some articles.


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Glad to hear that nobody you know personally was injured or killed, I hate that a your friends lost people who were close to them though! It is so scary to think that this guy was so close to you.

 

[thepinkdragon]

Lots of questions but no real answers....

Some observations MOO:

1. November 5th: Guy Fawkes Day and Ft.Hood Shooting
2. Court Martial records can be difficult to obtain. Usually there is a brief blurb in the associated military times but I couldn't find any for 2014. I also checked Air Force JAG online. I think they took it down, as it does not look favorable to them to be associated with the shooter, even though he was dishonorably discharged. Questions will pop up as to whether or not signs were apparent when he was undergoing court martial and while incarcerated.
3. A person with a Dishonorable Discharge is treated pretty much as though they have a felony. For more info go here: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/
4. How he obtained the AR-15 is a mystery, but laws don't deter criminals from circumventing the proper ways to possess firearms. Considering that he was able to kill and wound so many people in 15 seconds tells me this weapon was modified. Legal AR-15's at best can shoot a three round burst; which is considered semi-automatic.
5. If he was fighting with members of the local community on FB in the weeks prior, why didn't anyone report it?

This whole situation makes me ill.


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[Deleted member 158085]

**Speculation ahead** Every atheist I have ever met (granted that is not a huge number but several) had been injured by the church in some way. Psychological scarring in the religious circles is very real even in the absence of any physical abuse.
I have a very deeply radical Pentecostal ( Assembly of God, very fear based teaching) extended family. If someone is depressed or nervous, it's the Devil....end of story. Pray harder and it will go away. You left yourself open to the Devil by not having enough faith. You did not go to church enough, do enough good acts, stop sinning enough and left yourself vulnerable to Devil attacks. So If at any time this perp was feeling mentally unstable in the past and got that kind of treatment I can easily see a deep anger welling up inside against religion and anyone who supported it. It's a no win situation and leaves people in complete mental bondage.
I am not suggesting that the EX's family subscribed to this type of belief or that they behaved in that way at all. I have just thought of dozens of ways that people can be so twisted by the church as to have raging suppressed anger about it. Add alcohol/ drugs and you have a real problem.

ETA Add on the fact that nearly everyone has to have some specific THING to blame all of their problems on ( church, x , president, boss, etc) and making that thing pay for all your troubles in life may look appealing. **speculation**

Interesting. The atheists I know were not injured by the church, but just sort of grew in that direction at some point for various reasons. They are also the some of the kindest people I know, and the least likely in my mind to ever injure someone.

I guess that's why I'm not seeing his atheism as being any part of this. Of course, that's only a small piece of the puzzle here.

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[Pamela_Brewer]

Oh my God. I just can't imagine losing 8 family members at once, even if it was 8 cousins and no siblings. It would still have an unbelievable impact.

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Yeah, this was personal. He knew where they gathered together.
IMO it wasn't about a Church or Religion.
The mama was 5 months pregnant. That life needs to be in the count as well.
Moo

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[thepinkdragon]

Snipped

Speaking of delusional...
Earlier I mentioned an acquaintance on Facebook who posted all kinds of tactical gear. I blocked him for awhile. He also lives in a town of 600. After some weird behavior (angry with the town over a non issue, calling the cops on people over a flag, veiled threats to anyone who tried to approach the situation rationally, etc.), I went to his profile to see what his deal was. I clicked on his public photos of weapons and tactical gear, and looked at the comments. One comment was like, "Um, why? What are you going to do with all that stuff?" His response was that he was ready for Al Qaeda.

No one bothered to comment after that. I suspect his friends were creeped out by his thinking. Because who needs to be ready for Al Qaeda in a village of 600 in the middle of the heartland?

As to your comment about him possibly thinking religious people are after him, I keep thinking that it's not religious people per se, but this particular congregation . I don't think they were after him, but I do suspect he saw them as partly culpable in the end of his marriage if they acted as a support system for his wife and helped give her the courage to leave him, supported her decision.

Obviously MO.

I believe there are often signs that someone may snap, and the church members perhaps recognized this and attempted to save her from him.

But like the guy I mentioned above, even though it will absolutely not surprise me if he ends up killing someone someday, there isn't a thing anyone can do about it right now to my knowledge. At the moment, he's just a creepy local guy who seems melodramatic and likes guns a lot. Can't lock him up for that.

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I have an AR-15 and I've only posted it once on FB, to a private military group where I showed my bolt lock. When asked by people why I need an AR-15 this is what I tell them:

1. The AR-15 is the closest civilian rifle that operates and resembles the M-16, which I am highly trained on.
2. I live within 10 miles of four Federal Prisons, two of which are maximum security and the worst military offenders are here like Nidal Hassan.
3. Fort Leavenworth might as well have an attack here sign on it, for reasons I won't go into.


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[cady]

JMO If he spent 12 mos incarcerated for assaulting their daughter and grandchild, he may have a grudge against her and her family. If her parents were attendees at that church, it would have been an ideal place in his thinking to assassinate them there. That would explain the possible motive and the time and place. Just speculating. (MSNBC is consistently repeating the FORMER in-law angle...) JMO

 

[CARIIS]

I live out in the country, but if I heard a bunch of automatic gunfire coming from my neighbor's house, I would call just to be sure they were OK. It sounds like people noticed it but did not check it out.

Not checking on our neighbors because it's none of our business is how we get here. That's how people end up dead for weeks with no one noticing. I wish we could go back to the time when checking on neighbors' well-being was not nosy, but neighborly.

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I think a lot of it in this case is related to culture. I have learned here that in a lot of places in this nation it is really commonplace to hear people shooting all over the place often - for fun.

So i am assuming hearing shooting just does not register in some areas.

 

[Betty P]

Federal law prohibits a person who has been dishonorably discharged from buying a firearm. Whether Kelley's discharge would trigger the law was not immediately clear.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/was...s-shooter-was-court-1509937194-htmlstory.html

Yes, but there are giant loopholes in the laws. Any crazy person or criminal in the US has no difficulty purchasing as many deadly guns as they wish. We just don't take this problem seriously.

 

[CARIIS]

Golf clap, CARIIS. :goodpost:

what is a golf clap as opposed to a clap!!!!!!!

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

MSNBC the charges were filed in a wrong county -- the way it was worded implied it may have had some reason why he was not flagged

CNN he was denied gun lisc in TX?

Msnbc apparently the charge was very very very serious so I think we will find out so intense stuff as it relates to the battery charges /event.

It sounds as if he might have been out of control to batter your child in the event as well .

Maybe he aquired the bad b*tch gun illegally. It sounds like it was a recent purchase.
If someone got it for him, I hope the law hunts him down and smothers him.
Moo

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[BayouBelle_LA]

I agree sadly

how come it seems like it has recently become a fad to stop giving us status info in these horrors

How many critical

stable

dced

etc

prognosis of injured

I think the trend has been to give the public details to fast and sometimes inaccurately like in the Las Vegas shooting especially if there isn't an immediate threat to the public. When they get it wrong all it does is fuel conspiracy theories.

Don't get me wrong I like to get details fast that's why I'm here however I don't think it's good for their case. JMO

I also don't like when the media snoops facebook and releases details about the victims before LE or family does it. JMO

 

[margarita25]

https://www.thecut.com/2016/07/mass-killers-terrorism-domestic-violence.html
Article discusses link between DV and mass shootings

Thanks for posting. Interesting about the link between the two, yet not surprising.

 

[Jax49]

Seeing reporting that half the victims (12-14) were children.

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

Snipped

Speaking of delusional...
Earlier I mentioned an acquaintance on Facebook who posted all kinds of tactical gear. I blocked him for awhile. He also lives in a town of 600. After some weird behavior (angry with the town over a non issue, calling the cops on people over a flag, veiled threats to anyone who tried to approach the situation rationally, etc.), I went to his profile to see what his deal was. I clicked on his public photos of weapons and tactical gear, and looked at the comments. One comment was like, "Um, why? What are you going to do with all that stuff?" His response was that he was ready for Al Qaeda.

No one bothered to comment after that. I suspect his friends were creeped out by his thinking. Because who needs to be ready for Al Qaeda in a village of 600 in the middle of the heartland?

As to your comment about him possibly thinking religious people are after him, I keep thinking that it's not religious people per se, but this particular congregation . I don't think they were after him, but I do suspect he saw them as partly culpable in the end of his marriage if they acted as a support system for his wife and helped give her the courage to leave him, supported her decision.

Obviously MO.

I believe there are often signs that someone may snap, and the church members perhaps recognized this and attempted to save her from him.

But like the guy I mentioned above, even though it will absolutely not surprise me if he ends up killing someone someday, there isn't a thing anyone can do about it right now to my knowledge. At the moment, he's just a creepy local guy who seems melodramatic and likes guns a lot. Can't lock him up for that.

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You can report him to Facebook. I did for a friend threatening suicide. I told them who what where when.
They got LE to the hospital where he was with "chest pains" and took him in on a 5150.
Its been a year, he is still alive.
No guarantees, but I did what I could. [emoji45]
Moo

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[Pamela_Brewer]

I have an AR-15 and I've only posted it once on FB, to a private military group where I showed my bolt lock. When asked by people why I need an AR-15 this is what I tell them:

1. The AR-15 is the closest civilian rifle that operates and resembles the M-16, which I am highly trained on.
2. I live within 10 miles of four Federal Prisons, two of which are maximum security and the worst military offenders are here like Nidal Hassan.
3. Fort Leavenworth might as well have an attack here sign on it, for reasons I won't go into.


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I hear you about Leavenworth!
Moo

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