GUILTY TX - Alanna Gallagher, 6, Saginaw, 1 July 2013 - #12

[texashello]

Sorry. Maybe not clear. There was discussion of similarities of some child killers. Austin Sigg being one. I think he went to alternative school for awhile.

And what gives with TH?

Where I live, it is without a doubt neglect if your child is not in school until age 16. How about Texas? Parents get hauled into court where I live.

I've known lots of parents in this school district (which is Tyler's school district also) that "home school" their kids.

There appears to be little or no over site. I see these "home schooled" kids running around all over the neighborhood.

This is not to take away from the many parents that legitimately and truthfully give their children an amazing home school education.

I have no personal knowledge about if TH was home schooled, this is just my two cents worth.

 

[texashello]

O/T for sure. I am sorry for his family, but he chose to have sex with someone. Sex that resulted in a chid. He was older than KH so not a teen.

I don't know why she did not sue earlier, but I think if you are NOT on welfare, you have to pay for a lawyer and court costs to handle it? I do not know.

It appears that she was a single mother, working full time, raising a kid and not living on welfare. That is what society expects.

I feel for single mothers who are castigated while the fathers go on to live whatever carefree life they want.

She probably wouldn't have have had to pay for an attorney to get paternity established and to get child support. The Attorney General of Texas provides this service and usually the non-custodial parent is ordered to pay court costs, fees, and attorney fees.

They might or might not have gone all the way back to birth for back child support, there are some interesting conditions in the Texas Family Code.

 

[AJS1900]

In Tx, any parent can apply for child support through the attorney general's office for free no need to be on welfare,ect. The custodial parent in non welfare cases pays a small fee of about $26 a year that is deducted from the payments they receive. (I receive CS and my husband pays CS so I know a lot about the TX attorney general CS process.)

Some people don't go after support because they don't want the other parent involved so that could be one reason she didn't file.

 

[blue22]

I've known lots of parents in this school district (which is Tyler's school district also) that "home school" their kids.

There appears to be little or no over site. I see these "home schooled" kids running around all over the neighborhood.

This is not to take away from the many parents that legitimately and truthfully give their children an amazing home school education.

I have no personal knowledge about if TH was home schooled, this is just my two cents worth.

I homeschool, and I live in their area. What you have to remember, is homeschool families can teach what takes 7-8 hours in school, in 1-4 hours at home. We don't have all the nonsense and time sucks that public school has. (Waiting for class to calm down, waiting turns for all 20-25 kids, waiting in line, passing periods, class interaction takes forever, etc etc.) Kids learn very little of the day in public school. Most of the day is spent managing and tedious tasks. (Not that I'm knocking public school. I care that kids get an education, period.) If you took all the work you child does in one day of school, it would fit into probably 1/4 of the time they spend there. You might look at my son and say he runs all over the place with no over-site. In reality, he is 2 grades ahead of what he would be learning in public school, and far surpasses test scores and social maturity. Yet, we only "school" 1-3 hours a day. The rest is our time, art projects, nature learning, hanging out with friends, and learning in the real world. Also, he does math and science when dad gets off work. That leaves even more time during the day.

To be clear, I'm not getting defensive. It's just really hard for someone to understand, when you haven't homeschooled yourself. It's quality of time, not quantity of time. I have NEVER (and I know a ton) have met a homeschooling family, that just lets their kids run allover. Every so often there is a family that says "we homeschool" and really, they just don't give a crap. That is truly not often. TH's mom worked fulltime, that is NOT homeschooling. A parent is present and guiding their child's education for homeschooling, not working out of the house all day.

 

[greenpalm]

Tarp was wrapped around her, secured with a belt. Kids that found her unwrapped the tarp to see what was inside.

OMG, yes. we have spent pages and pages talking about the very unlikely possibility of it falling off a truck. yes. It's been discussed at great length. I'll see if I can track down the posts…

From July 7​

Not really, because you'd have to know things like the speed the truck was moving (do we know it came to a complete stop and then sped off?), and how sharp the turn was if the truck turned, and also I think how far into the bed of the truck Alanna was to begin with. And I was thinking about this...those smooth bedliners vs. an old, rusty truck bed...some surfaces would be much slipperier (is this even a word?) than others.
I've been thinking about the tarp too. I am thinking the tarp could have been more to conceal Alanna's body during transport than anything else. Open beds of trucks are visible to anyone in a taller vehicle.
I will be really surprised if Alanna's body was left in the street on purpose. This is a huge risk to take, in broad daylight on a residential road. You would have to be crazy to do this. But then again, anyone who kills a small child like this isn't all together in the first place.

Also, not a physics person, but I have seen something come out/fall out of someone's open trunk from the simple act of accelerating minimally after a complete stop.

A few months ago the I noted the car in front of me at a stop light had a full sized shopping cart (I don't know why!) half in/half out of their trunk, no bungee cord holding the cart in/holding the trunk closed. As soon a the light turned green, they accelerated normally, not at a high rate of speed, and the cart tumble out of the trunk (over the lip of the trunk.) They drove on, and I...had to get out of my car and move the cart, lol. Anyway, I think she could have tumbled out of a faulty tailgate/no tailgate, simply from accelerating from a stop.

From July 10​

2. Re falling out of the truck.

As I said before, my son is an engineer, but I just could not stand the thought of his hassling me about my little problem WS.

Anyway, hubby and I had errands and I asked him. He is totally a genius with physics, torque, vector forces, but he will not get verified.

Anyway, I told him the situation and he said that there is no way a body could fall out under those conditions. He said it is flat and does not roll easily,

I asked about stopping at a stop sign , hard.

He said that the body would slide forward, not back.

I asked about quck take off.

He said there is not a production vehicle that is made that can accelerate fast enough to cause a body to slide out.

His opinion is that it would have to be rigged to happen that way.

He said that there is not a bump that would not damage a vehicle if it bumped so much to throw the body out.

He said there is no way.

This is a combined vector problem, of course.

There is a horizontal force, a gravitational force and the sum of these two =the total force of an object falling out of a can/van and hitting the asphalt. Calculate the body's impulse upon impact and then the asphalt 's impulse. You also have to calculate center of mass because this will determine how the impact of the human hitting the asphalt will damage the tissue.

(Obviously I didn't answer that. My son, who passed physics, answered that. )

from July 13​

We have gone over the tarp issue. I believe that the tarp was secured with a belt.

I think, but do not know, that the tarp was unsecured by those who found it.

There is a lot of discussion on this on this very thread.

There is also discussion of whether a body can fall out of a truck.

I even googled it. It does not appear to be something that could happen.

We had a discussion of inertia where things keep the same motion. When the truck stopped at the sign, if the body moved, it would be forward.

My husband says that there is not a production vehicle ( that is a vehicle that is mass produced)' that can take off fast enough to have a body slide out

On the previous thread, a generous WS member tried this very experiment and discovered that it was highly unlikely that a body could fall out,

If you google , there are sites that tell you how to properly secure a load.

They are based on objects flying out because of weight or something like a mattress that can become air borne because of wind.

Or things that are too long or unstable.

But, you will have to look up the physics of it all yourself to see what you believe can be possible,

From July 14​

I had thought this before. Perhaps the perp knows this area notoriously gets later than usual pick-up either on their weekly garbage, or their monthly yard debris pick-up. Or had made note the night before that people had yard debris out on the street, therefore, this would be a good street to come back to for disposal.

Side note, I know many smarter than me have explained why physics-wise, Alanna could not have rolled/slid from the back of a truck. But yesterday, my side-lying (in a not round, but not boxy plastic container) gallon of milk slid approx. 2 feet from the front of my carpeted cargo area to up against the back hatch. Less than two mile drive, no steep hills, no speedy tire burning accelerations, no corners on two wheels.

I realize a side-lying gallon of milk in the back of my SUV is not the same as a cylindrical/mildly bumpy 45-50 pound person. And I'm currently leaning towards the body being purposefully dumped. But I think when it comes to the 'could it happen?', that it's more of a 'not probable, but possible'. We don't know other variables (if she was placed in the back of a truck.) I think we're all presuming placed on her back, middle of bed or towards cab, no other objects in the back of the truck. We can't know how she was placed (not laying flat? Upright, on rump, top-heavy head up) with other junk in front of her? and where she was placed (at edge with no hatch or pressed against gate w/faulty latch.) or what was possibly placed near her that could have rolled, slid or otherwise forced her body to get nudged out. So considering all that, I'd say not probable, but not impossible.

For sliding, the physics all depends upon the friction between the tarp and the bed of the truck (assuming no tail gate). If the truck bed were frictionless, everything you put in the truck would immediately fall out the back as you drove away. Friction transmits the acceleration of the truck to the body. If the friction cannot accommodate the acceleration, the body slips. Obviously, there is friction, but it seems like a tarp on bare metal could be pretty slippery. And, as you rightly point out, we know through observation that things can slide around in passenger cars and trucks.

Additionally, I think there is some possibility that rolling could occur, if the body were bundled up in such a way that it became rounded, like a cylinder.

Like you, I'm not convinced that the body fell out of a truck, but I believe it is possible. I currently don't have an opinion on which is more likely (depends on how likely I think it is that trucks are missing tail gates vs how likely someone would intentionally dump a body in the street).

From July 16​

I just would like to double-check something with you... what if the truck were speeding and took two sharp turns (one very sharp) in opposite directions in quick succession? Also, consider that the bundled-up body might roll like a cylinder rather than slide. Based on your experience, could that cause a body to fall out the back of a truck (without a tail gate)?

Interesting thought. I'm picturing a speeding truck sort of zig zagging and swerving down the road? Perhaps. I'm not convinced you could get up sufficient speed on any of the roadways where she was found. I went back and looked at the map again. There aren't any straight always to get up that kind of speed. My DH got a huge dent in the back side of the cab of his truck, beneath the back window of the cab, from a beer keg once. 1. It was very heavy, 2. It was slick and smooth, 3. It was rounded, 3. It went forward when he stopped, banging into the cab, not backward out of the tailgate.

As another poster commented, you'd have to accelerate extremely rapidly for something to slide or roll backward out of the bed of a truck. And I definitely think the tailgate would need to be missing or open, and no ordinary car (or "production vehicle" as another poster put it) can accelerate that fast. We've carried all kinds of loads around in that truck, and I've ridden back there at highway speeds. It's acceleration or deceleration that would cause stuff to move. Or wind. We lost a wardrobe box on an access road once because one thin edge poked up over the top of the cab where the wind could catch it. A 50 pound body down in the cab, even in a tarp wouldn't catch that kind of wind on a residential street. He also lost a mattress once: again wind.

I presented you scenario to him, and we looked at the map together.

He will allow, somewhat reluctantly: IF someone loaded a body foot first, so that the majority of the weight was toward the tailgate; and IF they were zigging and zagging swerving violently back and forth, and IF there was no tailgate a body *might* work its way toward the end and then momentum, and the lopsided weight of a torso going overboard first and pulling the feet along after, rather than the other way around then maybe with really reckless speeding this could happen.

But he also says that if HE were loading a body into a truck bed, he'd put it head and torso first because that's how you carry a person, you hold the weight, set that down, and the slide the rest of the body into the bed. He says we've had loads of loads back there that never move at all. Most of the time they don't. We bring plastic bags of groceries home in the truck, and they never move. We do take care to put them near the cab, not out on the end near the tailgate.

He has driven trucks with both a solid tailgate and the kind with a mesh net. He says, "stuff doesn't fall out of trucks."

 

[texashello]

I homeschool, and I live in their area. What you have to remember, is homeschool families can teach what takes 7-8 hours in school, in 1-4 hours at home. We don't have all the nonsense and time sucks that public school has. (Waiting for class to calm down, waiting turns for all 20-25 kids, waiting in line, passing periods, class interaction takes forever, etc etc.) Kids learn very little of the day in public school. Most of the day is spent managing and tedious tasks. (Not that I'm knocking public school. I care that kids get an education, period.) If you took all the work you child does in one day of school, it would fit into probably 1/4 of the time they spend there. You might look at my son and say he runs all over the place with no over-site. In reality, he is 2 grades ahead of what he would be learning in public school, and far surpasses test scores and social maturity. Yet, we only "school" 1-3 hours a day. The rest is our time, art projects, nature learning, hanging out with friends, and learning in the real world. Also, he does math and science when dad gets off work. That leaves even more time during the day.

To be clear, I'm not getting defensive. It's just really hard for someone to understand, when you haven't homeschooled yourself. It's quality of time, not quantity of time. I have NEVER (and I know a ton) have met a homeschooling family, that just lets their kids run allover. Every so often there is a family that says "we homeschool" and really, they just don't give a crap. That is truly not often. TH's mom worked fulltime, that is NOT homeschooling. A parent is present and guiding their child's education for homeschooling, not working out of the house all day.

I agree! I've known some amazing home school parents but I've known a lot that work full time and are gone long hours like KH.

 

[Ladylub]

I tend to think that people in the suburb had learned that TH was a weirdo who probably got away with a lot worse than rolling his household garbage can around a bit.
I know you are pushing an accomplice theory, so I peacefully disagree with you calling my post " highly unlikely".

I think there is a difference between the weirdo of the neighborhood and the criminal. I would blow off the lady next door for a weird act b/c I've seen her do weird things all the time. There is a guy looks in his 20s that is one I look at for being a criminal. I would He walks around and scopes out cars. Weirdo neighbor came over one day saying be on the look out for him b/c she drove by him earlier and he was looking in backyards. ( and the why she is my weirdo neighbor.....she then hides behind a bush in her yard hoping to catch him. You could see her legs and her bright orange shirt. Never a dull moment when she comes talking.)

I believe that TH knew EXACTLY where the neighborhood security cameras were located. He rode around at night on his bike and likely scoped them out on his rounds committing petty theft.

LE is pretty firm in the Arrest Warrant, that TH's car didn't leave that day, so I'm assuming that the cameras were running that entire time.

One camera, according to the Arrest Warrant, was at 661 BB on the north end of his street: the other was on the opposite side of the street at 604 BB on the south end of his street.

Certainly, TH could have evaded these cameras on foot, but not likely by car. I have a hard time imagining that scenario, but I suppose anything is possible.

He may have known about where the cameras were located. He would see what direction it was pointing but would he be able to figure out what areas the camera would pick up.

Does anyone think that if he wasn't able to lure her, he still would have forcefully taken her? Does anyone think that it would have been another child if not Alanna?

I think he would have taken another child. I think he knew the kids that roamed the neighborhood and knew how long they would be out before being called back in. He had a lot of time on his hands with not working or going to school.

TH's arrest warrant says that on July 22, LE collected four trash bags from in front of his house. It only list the bags themselves and the red tape as evidence found (connected to the trash).

I bet LE had been waiting on them to throw trash out. Depending on the size, 4 bags seems like a lot to throw out with just 2 people living there. Wonder if they had not thrown out trash till then. ( saying "they" here only b/c mom lives with him. Not implying mom was involved with waiting all that time to throw out some evidence hoping that LE had moved on from looking at him. )

 

[tehcloser]

I agree! I've known some amazing home school parents but I've known a lot that work full time and are gone long hours like KH.

Do we really know what her hours are? Or is it just assumed she works, and it's long hours?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm curious to know why so many posters think there was an accomplice.

Here is my line of reasoning based upon the facts as we know them:

1) PROBABLE crime of opportunity, as Alanna was said to be outdoors and nearby TH's house for some time on July 1.

2) Child weighed probably 30-35 lbs. Suspect is a grown man, not small.

3) All of the bindings turned Alanna's body into a package which could have been carried by any of us for a mile or so.

4) Likewise, it was trash pick up day. TH could have used a small cart or wheelbarrow, or even emptied out his household's or someone else's wheeled large garbage container, placed the body in moveable device, and dumped her wherever no one was looking. Many people do not fill every large wheeled bin every week. I know we don't.

5) There are many elements of disorganization to the crime, which again, point to a lone killer and lone person disposing of a very small body wrapped up. He's a poly- substance abuser which is the main reason for the disorganization. There are also many elements of rage to the murder. I would not be surprised if he urinated or defecated on the corpse. Reading about BTK and the Otero daughter opened my eyes about sexual deviancy during the commission of a crime. If anyone hasn't read the specifics of the Otero home, please stop and read it now. Then apply all this " liquid on body" to TH's actions.
Also, probable lack of previous experience with murder and disposal of a corpse.

I think it's time to stop reacting to shadows and remember how small Alanna's body was compared to TH's. He didn't NEED an accomplice, IMO.

Occam's Razor. He took what was at hand and made do during the commission of the crime and afterwards.

Lastly, it goes without saying, but this man is a monster. A big part of me hopes he develops overwhelming sepsis and dies without extubation. I don't want him to have a life of any meager means, not one more day of sunshine or fresh air.

Maria

I think ....no knowing accomplice

 

[texashello]

Do we really know what her hours are? Or is it just assumed she works, and it's long hours?

I have no MSM proof, just people in the neighborhood that have said that and similar things, so it's just my opinion.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Okay, Linda, Pretty please don't think I was being condescending. I just truly enjoy helping. Additionally, I figure if you are out there wondering and saying so…*there are probably 10 other posters who are wondering, and NOT saying so. So, if you'll forgive me, I've worked up a a little "multiquote tutorial," even if you find it of no use whatsoever, chances are good someone else will. Besides which, I'm going to save this, for future use when people ask. Thank you!

Modsnip>

I'm am really really impressed with your tutorial ! No...seriously!
So much so that if you can do one with tapatalk...I'm convinced I will master it so....if you you're up to the challenge of trying to get it through my thick skull...I'm interested

Again...great job! If I were still using my laptop...I'd be so multi quoting right now...

 

[IBsleuthin]

I'm not sure WHAT to think anymore.

 

[Jo in Calif]

Do we really know what her hours are? Or is it just assumed she works, and it's long hours?

This is the thing that is so weird we know nada, zero, zip.
Not trying to sleuth her but being the mother of a teen that is arrested of such a horrible crime you would think we would know something.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Walking a mile with 50 pounds probably can be done by a guy in great shape. I do not see TH as that guy. Riding a bike-- same thing.

It seems like LE would know the identity if every car.

This crime is so horrific that people will be calling in the tips on the cars in question.

I wonder what the hold up is? Not enough info for a search warrant?

We did not know that TH had been to the police station until after the shooting. So things go on that we do not know about. Suspects could be interviewed and we do not know.

The only way she was brought to the spot is by car.

Let's say he used the KIA? What evidence could there be in the car? She was in a tarp, etc.

I'm just at a place where I think he acted totally alone ....well that's my sincere hope and maybe that's clouding my opinion in a big way.

 

[blue22]

This is the thing that is so weird we know nada, zero, zip.
Not trying to sleuth her but being the mother of a teen that is arrested of such a horrible crime you would think we would know something.

Neighbors have said she worked long hours. We don't know if it's true or not, but it's been said!!

"Neighbors said that Kimberly Holder worked hard to provide for her son but that she often had to leave the teen unsupervised at home.

“His mom works. She works long hours, and he’s not supervised as well as he should be. But mom’s a single mom,” one neighbor said."

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/07/24/5026216/saginaw-suspects-grandparents.html

 

[Linda7NJ]

The vigil was I believe the day of her funeral, July 11th. I had my kids out at the park for snowcones and to play on one of the playgrounds but we left about the time people were showing up. My kids are too little to hear about Alanna (though my MOTHER told them...makes me really question her judgment). As a side note, we went to Opal Jo's playground recently. It is really lovely. There was even a bit of a cool breeze in the air. And a fence almost all the way around so a little easier to keep the kids corralled.

I gotta side with your mom on this one. If she told them, in an age appropriate way, leaving out gruesome details ...she did you a favor. Even very young children need to learn to trust their instincts and don't have to be nice, listen to or obey every adult ( I would think a 6 yr old would view Tyler as an adult) IMO children have pretty good instincts and should be taught to trust them throughout their entire childhoods. Kids need to know there are indeed bad people in the world that would like nothing better than to steal them away forever.

All IMO.

 

[dandan08]

One thing I have been wondering. LE have said there are camera's at either end of the street, the south one being at 604 Babbling Brook and TH's vehicle never left Babbling Brook on the day of the murder. The memorial that was burnt was near the stop sign. Why wasn't the perp picked up on this camera?

I guess there are a number of reasons...

It's angled so you can't see the sidewalk, just the road and nearest sidewalk.
It didn't recognise any movement if it was set to motion detect - poor quality camera.
It doesn't have nightvision.
It wasn't recording at night.
There was no perp, LE said it could have been an accident.
Someone was seen but LE haven't said publicly.

If the camera is angled so you can't see the sidewalk then I guess there is a chance TH could have carried the body and tarp along the sidewalk, thus not appearing on camera. Same point could be said if it didn't detect movement. Personally I don't think this happened (TH carrying the body), but it's possible I guess.

It's possible it wasn't recording at night, but then what would be the point of having an home security camera?

It's possible the memorial fire was an accident, as stated by LE. But what's the chances of another fire that's clearly arson happening at the same time on the same night?

It's possible a perp was seen and LE hasn't revealed it publicly. But then why state it could have been an accident?

It's possible the camera doesn't have nightvision mode, but aren't most home security camera's these days capable of nightvision?

So any more views on this? LE are pretty clear TH's vehicle never left Babbling Brook that day due to the security camera's. But then, why didn't the camera pick up the arsonist (assuming there is one for the memorial)?

 

[Backwoods]

You know -- with all the condoms found in TH's house -- you would think, IF the assault happened there and IF there is any intact judgment (judgment, now, not character, etc., I'm talking) and/or even rudimentary planning involved -- it sure seems that he would not have left the kind of evidence of himself that was found on Alanna's body.

Or, barring that foresight, that he would have had a better-planned way of "disposing".

Or did he feel he had destroyed any DNA evidence he left somehow?

Lots of mysteries, to me.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do. He was all aroused from the hose, etc, and wanted a victim. He had boys clothing in his room and both boys and girls panties. He had two homes next to his with kids living there. I think he would have taken a boy but Alanna was there and available. He's a deviant perv sicko who was into kids and one of them would have fallen victim to him, for sure IMO.

He actually reminds me a bit of the ex Colonel Williams in Canada who was stealing panties and women's clothing and photographing himself dressed up and pleasuring himself. He broke into people's homes and also had child *advertiser censored*. He was a peeping tom that escalated into a murderer pretty fast.

ETA: I expect to find out that he broke into people's homes and stole personal items. I also think he has photographed kids while peeping on them. There will be child *advertiser censored* IMO.

He sounds like someone who was victimized and sodomized as a young child, never relieved any form of therapy or protection and as a defense mechanism began identifying with his abuser. The one with all the power...controlled him and so he wants the control of feeling powerful. All IMO.

Btw...I am not making excuses for him... At all..in any way shape or form. He knew what he was doing was wrong, twisted and disgusting..that's why he did it...and he enjoyed it. Zero sympathy from me.

 

[Backwoods]

One thing I have been wondering. LE have said there are camera's at either end of the street, the south one being at 604 Babbling Brook and TH's vehicle never left Babbling Brook on the day of the murder. The memorial that was burnt was near the stop sign. Why wasn't the perp picked up on this camera?

I guess there are a number of reasons...

It's angled so you can't see the sidewalk, just the road and nearest sidewalk.
It didn't recognise any movement if it was set to motion detect - poor quality camera.
It doesn't have nightvision.
It wasn't recording at night.
There was no perp, LE said it could have been an accident.
Someone was seen but LE haven't said publicly.

If the camera is angled so you can't see the sidewalk then I guess there is a chance TH could have carried the body and tarp along the sidewalk, thus not appearing on camera. Same point could be said if it didn't detect movement. Personally I don't think this happened (TH carrying the body), but it's possible I guess.

It's possible it wasn't recording at night, but then what would be the point of having an home security camera?

It's possible the memorial fire was an accident, as stated by LE. But what's the chances of another fire that's clearly arson happening at the same time on the same night?

It's possible a perp was seen and LE hasn't revealed it publicly. But then why state it could have been an accident?

It's possible the camera doesn't have nightvision mode, but aren't most home security camera's these days capable of nightvision?

So any more views on this? LE are pretty clear TH's vehicle never left Babbling Brook that day due to the security camera's. But then, why didn't the camera pick up the arsonist (assuming there is one for the memorial)?

You make some great points ...BUT, are you sure, when you say the memorial was near the stop sign, that you are not thinking of the first memorial (the one that was removed) near the stop sign on the other street, where she was found?

Do we even know exactly where the second memorial spot was? ("We" may know, and "I" just don't know!)