TX - Botham Shem Jean, 26, killed when police officer entered his apartment, Dallas, Sept 2018 #3

[Al Hoffman]

Your scenarios all point to murder, not manslaughter. Yes?

Any lies, omissions, or deceptions are presumed proffered with intent to conceal truth.

I'm not married to any one crime scenario or verdict at this time. The charges will be decided by the citizens of Dallas sitting in a Grand Jury. AG's guilt ot innocence will likely be decided by another 12 citizens. (Do you think she could/would go with a Bench Trial?)

However there may be extenuating circumstances to be considered by both Juries.

Chronic sleep deprivation combined with Nuvigil psychosis along with Ambien's effect (taking one to sleep on schedule (Ambien), and another to stay awake (Nuvigil) another day), after another night of REM altered/deprived sleep, after weeks of back to back mandatory 12 hour shifts. (All JIMHIOO)

Also, as suggested up-thread, specialized testing for anabolic steroid use (pretty black & white in a woman, and not normally included on a standard Toxicology panel) could also be a factor in a Diminished Capacity defence. Changes in AG's face, compared to older photos, show changes that MIGHT be indicative of steroid use. Also, chronic steroid use has "interesting" effects on women that COULD be apparent on physical exam (a COMPLETE physical exam). (ALL JIMIOO)

While my fanciful scenarios my imply a Murder Two or higher and more charges, a Jury(s) may see it differently depending on the alternative truth the defense spins. (Where do you think POTUS learned the term?)

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

Try being objective and not take offense to any of the possibly sounding sexist observations we likely both agree are well seated in the real world

Assuming the Pinterest remains shown are hers including the brazen and profane comment left. Wear black dressed for your funeral....nobody thanks me for not killing them... etc

Then consider she seemingly vaporized all social media after getting a "you run along cute lil pumpkin and we'll let you know when you need to turn yourself in and even make sure our FOP bondsman has you out in know time" treatment............

Also consider the power she as a reasonably attractive fun sized female (she's not ugly) she will naturally have over many in her predominatly male, aka weak horn dogs, occupation and likely knows it by age 30...

Ponder the rations of hazing and feces storms she likely endured as a result of a MALE perp taking her taser that she ended up killing.

Oh, I forgot Black Wearing Elite Forces whatever pick...

Then tell me if you think I'm way off base.....

I don't know about vanity or arrogance, but I do wonder about her skill. As I posted upthread, I'd like to know how she scored and ranked at the Academy. I'd further like to know if she had to go in for mandatory re-training after her first shooting incident 15 months ago. If not, that is a big red flag, IMO.
Any LE on the thread who can comment on that?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

In reality, the charges will actually be decided by the DA, not the DA's and Criminal Court's grand jury; if she dares actually challenge the Rangers (which seems unlikely) and the grand jury and the DA's foreman will most very likely rubber stamp whatever it is that the DA actually wants.

If the DA wanted a murder 1 or 2 indictment, she could certainly vigorously and forcefully present enough to get that if wanted. If she wants less, ibid.

For all anyone knows, this gal is the tip of the iceberg concealing deeply distrubing corruption within the DPD? Maybe that had a number of side hustle small zip bags (totalling 10 grams) in her backpack that was left behind in Mr. Jean's (RIP) apartment?

You don't think that is something DPD or the Rangers might look to withholding and more so if the chain of command went very high <pun intended>?

I think whenever a true bill is signed, after the election, she will get a peachy plea deal and never go to trial. You?

To that end, Meritt's colleagues need to go ahead and file a wrongful death civil suit in District Court so they have actual standing to obtain meaningful discovery, sworn answers to questions etc and not be dependent on the smokey crumbs the state leaks out via undisclosed and unverifiable sources.

The outcome of her prosecution, or not, offers no collateral or direct estoppel precluding them from prevailing in a civil case. However, a conviction would strengthen such a cause.

I'm not married to any one crime scenario or verdict at this time. The charges will be decided by the citizens of Dallas sitting in a Grand Jury. AG's guilt ot innocence will likely be decided by another 12 citizens. (Do you think she could/would go with a Bench Trial?)

 

[Al Hoffman]

Is she was that fast to shoot someone when she's off duty and she's tired, imagine how fast she would shoot someone when she's on duty and she's tired.

As she was trained to do!

Yes, American LEO's are now trained that way. It started in Los Angeles after two cops were executed with their own guns in an onion field in 1963 ("The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh). After that, LAPD changed their training and tactics, and the rest of America followed suite. (Remember the Adam-12 and S.W.A.T TV shows? Thank Jack Webb, a LAPD fan).

SWAT, foot beat cops replaced by patrol cars, the "21 foot rule" ( THAT Cop's death happened in a Colorado bar), 2 rounds to the center of mass and repeat until the PERCEIVED threat is neutralized; these are LAPD innovations that lead to a "us versus them" policing policy, that in turn lead to the Rodney King incident, and all that has followed since.

Like Jessica Rabbit, Cops aren't bad, it just has to do with how they are trained to do their job, in a VERY hostile environment.

"Those who do not remember their history, are doomed to repeat it"

Please go read The Onion Field, and then get back to me.

 

[Al Hoffman]

Respectfully snipped for focus. Ask any surgeon or surgical nurse how they feel about that statement

"What does a surgeon do when he amputates the wrong leg?

Sit down, and stare at his navel."

From "A Chance To Cut Is A Chance To Cure" by "Rip" Ralph B. Pfeiffer, Jr. (Good Luck finding a copy - ROTFLM**O funny and sobering at the same time!)

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

Agreed 100% and the training to kill observed by a reasonable observer who then observed the killing aspects of training of militant special forces, would find them both to be nearly identical.

Too bad she failed to keep her wits about her and forgot the calling for back up should have occured FIRST taught to her specifically to prevent heros from creating a situation that could have resulted in her, a DPD ex-asset, being dead.

Don't you also find it odd that even though she claimed it was too dark to determine she wasn't in her own place and too dark to see Mr. Jean (RIP) as anything but a silhoutte that she could determine was not complying with her orders, THAT SHE ONLY SHOT TWICE and based on her premise, how could she have ever SEEN that he had been stopped and didn't fall or land on weapon?

At the very most in her favor, perhaps she actually came to her senses after she fired the second shot and is not fit to be a commissioned officer and should be looking at at least M2.

My opinion is that the training to kill is likely the most effective aspect of the training that sticks with certain types whom seem receptive to getting caught up in it easily forgetting who they are and all the fine print details (like call for back up, check your uniform and gear at the station etc) our deliberately and callously indifferent "pro-cop" courts find easy to over look in the interest of "public and officer safety".

As she was trained to do!

 

[imstilla.grandma]

This is older but I haven’t seen it until today.sorry if a repeat.

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

Interesting they state where she went to high school but nobody is reporting where she went to college and what she studied. DPD requires her to have at least 44 hours of college.

This is older but I haven’t seen it until today.sorry if a repeat.

 

[Rocco]

As she was trained to do!

Yes, American LEO's are now trained that way. It started in Los Angeles after two cops were executed with their own guns in an onion field in 1963 ("The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh). After that, LAPD changed their training and tactics, and the rest of America followed suite. (Remember the Adam-12 and S.W.A.T TV shows? Thank Jack Webb, a LAPD fan).

SWAT, foot beat cops replaced by patrol cars, the "21 foot rule" ( THAT Cop's death happened in a Colorado bar), 2 rounds to the center of mass and repeat until the PERCEIVED threat is neutralized; these are LAPD innovations that lead to a "us versus them" policing policy, that in turn lead to the Rodney King incident, and all that has followed since.

Like Jessica Rabbit, Cops aren't bad, it just has to do with how they are trained to do their job, in a VERY hostile environment.

"Those who do not remember their history, are doomed to repeat it"

Please go read The Onion Field, and then get back to me.

'The Onion Field' is an old book that I've already read so I'm not reading it again just so I can get back to you. Thanks.

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

audio of dispatch to emt's and others

gotta hear HER 911 call so we can all tell if she lied or if DPD crafted the security guard story presented as a time-buying smokescreen

for all we know, the DPD worked with her while she was on the phone to them putting together the security guard smokescreen

if she flat out lied, M1, if DPD was complicit, M1 and more causes of action

 

[Isabelle]

audio of dispatch to emt's and others

gotta hear HER 911 call so we can all tell if she lied or if DPD crafted the security guard story presented as a time-buying smokescreen

for all we know, the DPD worked with her while she was on the phone to them putting together the security guard smokescreen

if she flat out lied, M1, if DPD was complicit, M1 and more causes of action

Yes, would definitely like the audio of Amber’s call to 911.

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

One thing 100% certain, DPD's dispatcher using the NG or E911 system knew exactly who was on the phone when AG called.

Anyone know if Dallas is NG911 yet? I imagine they have been for a while now and haven't kept up with the newest thing which I understand will locate a caller to within inches at most any elevation above sea level.

Yes, would definitely like the audio of Amber’s call to 911.

 

[VAgirlatheart]

deleting because the post was too long lol and I was rambling

 

[Cryptic]

The minute traces she left behind aren't really relevant to her being fired although it does speak poorly to DPD's employ policy in not reigning in their employees' appearances before the public that pays their keep.

DPD has several thousand employees. Reigning in the appereances of the employees to that extent may well be impractical

- How many full time employees would be needed to monitor the social media of officers and other employees for objectionable econtent?
- Would officers be required to provide a list of social media outlests they are active on as well as what account names they use?
- Using even modest privacy measures would make the jobs of the monitors a lot harder. Would officers be forbidden to have privacy blockers?
- What about officers attending political meetings, rallies, fund raisers etc. Would these activities be actively monitored? (requires even more staff)
- Would the monitors be fair and unbiased themselves?

At the end of the day, actively monitoring the social media and political activities of a large department is just not practical. Even trying to do so would hurt morale. Rather, the practical course of action is to give officers broad, but not absolute rights of expression as we are a free society. A free society means no active monitoring. Then, only take action on the most extreme examples of where the officer's views prevent him from acting impartially.

 

[rosesfromangels]

audio of dispatch to emt's and others

gotta hear HER 911 call so we can all tell if she lied or if DPD crafted the security guard story presented as a time-buying smokescreen

for all we know, the DPD worked with her while she was on the phone to them putting together the security guard smokescreen

if she flat out lied, M1, if DPD was complicit, M1 and more causes of action

Actually, this kind of makes sense. My speculation is that she went to his apartment in the capacity of onsite security to talk to him about noise or pot smell. I think she was going to take advantage of the fact she was in uniform when confronting him with her concerns. Of course this is all speculation. We need to hear that 911 call as you point out. It will reveal alot. It's not looking good for her at this point, but then again it's much worse for Mr. Jean and his family.

I will also be *very* interested in seeing if she received a call from anyone in that complex the day of the incident. Perhaps one of the tenants called her complaining and she was taking action. Maybe even management called her? This is a possibility I hadn't thought of until now.

Amateur opinion and speculation.

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

I fully understand, however, I'd be willing to bet they have no policy or employee guidelines for any of the potential activities you mention. Other government agencies have clear and simple policies known to them and the people.

Let me make this clear, police officers ARE prosecutors AND officers of the court. AS SUCH inappropriate public presentations bearing their faces and names cast a dark cloud over a state's judiciary and the system of justice. You can bet those appointed and employed by DAG Hill do not openly and publicly present anything with such flavor and personality on their public social media as was found on PIG (not a police officer but a PIG) AG's alleged Pinterest account.

So yeah, 1st amendment and all that, BUT, when you're on the people's dime and an intergral part of the system of justice, you should cease being able to freely and openly voice any and everything you want in order to preserve the appearance of impartiality.



Offer an incentive for those, tax paying citizens or police, who whistleblow on seriously questionable or seriously unacceptable representation easily determined by name and face, and........

It would take care of itself although I'd say fellow cops that rat on cops don't fare well, even when the cops they rat on are filthy dirty. Probably especially then.

Heck, I was shocked to learn DPD had multiple police unions segrated by RACE and ETHNICITY!!!

That doesn't sound like a very unified police force to me and who knows what each group hates or is proud of?

I will have to say your response reminds me of typical government, especially PD Admin objections to something quite simple by complicating implementation into an expensive and logistical nightmare.

DPD has several thousand employees. Reigning in the appereances of the employees to that extent may well be impractical

- How many full time employees would be needed to monitor the social media of officers and other employees for objectionable econtent?
- Would officers be required to provide a list of social media outlests they are active on as well as what account names they use?
- Using even modest privacy measures would make the jobs of the monitors a lot harder. Would officers be forbidden to have privacy blockers?
- What about officers attending political meetings, rallies, fund raisers etc. Would these activities be actively monitored? (requires even more staff)
- Would the monitors be fair and unbiased themselves?

At the end of the day, actively monitoring the social media and political activities of a large department is just not practical. Even trying to do so would hurt morale. Rather, the practical course of action is to give officers broad, but not absolute rights of expression as we are a free society. A free society means no active monitoring. Then, only take action on the most extreme examples of where the officer's views prevent him from acting impartially.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“There is one overriding reason that I have not taken any administrative or employment action against Officer Amber Guyger. I don’t want to interfere with the on-going criminal investigation into her actions. Here’s why. As an employer, DPD can compel Officer Guyger to provide a statement during a DPD administrative investigation and those statements given to DPD could potentially compromise the criminal investigation. That is not a risk I am willing to take. We cannot let the criminal case be determined on a ’technicality’ rather than the facts. An exhaustive and thorough criminal investigation is essential, and as soon as we are assured that conducting an administrative investigation will not impede on the criminal investigation, we will proceed.”

NBC 5 Law Enforcement Expert Don Peritz said after the shooting occurred two completely separate, but parallel, investigations began -- one administrative (Internal Affairs) and another that was criminal.

"They are separate investigations designed to protect the integrity of the criminal investigation and to protect the rights of everyone involved -- the suspect, the witnesses, the assigned investigators and the department," Peritz said.

Investigations Breakdown

Administrative Investigations (Internal Affairs):

• Involve interviews, between Internal Affairs Detectives and the accused officer.

• This investigation is focused between the accused employee and the department.

• Involves employee requirement to follow departmental policy to fully cooperate with investigators and answer all questions asked (compelled or forced to answer truthfully about what happened).

• Involves Garrity protection for the accused officer against self-incrimination, because the accused is compelled to answer.

• Information gained in the administrative investigation cannot be shared from the administrative side to the criminal investigation side, however, the criminal investigators can share information gained with the administrative side (Internal Affairs). (Garrity v New Jersey (1967)

• Administrative investigations are directed toward employee misconduct, such as department policy or rules/regulations violations.

Criminal Investigations:

• Involve interrogations between the criminal investigators assigned (in this case, now the Texas Rangers and Dallas County DA investigators and the suspect (Officer Amber Guyger)

• Focused on violations of state law (Texas Penal Code)

• The result of the criminal investigation is ultimately between the accused suspect (in this case the Officer Amber Guyger) a criminal prosecutor (the DA), and the court.

Why Hasn't Amber Guyger Been Terminated?

 

[DisturbedConcerned]

Curious, do you have any thoughts on that message?

Why Hasn't Amber Guyger Been Terminated?

 

[Thora_Jay]

Many times throughout my career was forced to do mandatory 16 hour shifts with a 45 minute drive, a longer drive in the winter when the roads were bad. Many of my co-workers traveled farther.
I did that and so did my co-workers. We never went to the wrong damn house and we never killed anyone.

 

[mickey2942]

Curious, do you have any thoughts on that message?

I believe that the situation with Officer Oliver, a Dallas Police Killer, who shot an unarmed teenager, was terminated three days after the incident. This officer was subsequently charged and recently found guilty of murder. Dallas-area cop sentenced to 15 years in fatal shooting of black teenager

The unions may have discussed that when an officer/Killer is terminated, prior to the trial, it is basically a decision rendered. Legally speaking, that does make some sense. However, the Chief's assertion that it is "against the law", is a "misunderstanding", I have pulled up the Texas Administrative Code, and it does not say that at all.

However, in this case, the Officer/Killer was not on duty. The actions had nothing to do with her employment. The victim, Mr. Jean, was in his home.
Officer Killer's statements have changed, and conflict.

And I agree, officers used to be trained to de-escalate situations. Now, you call a cop, there is going to be trouble. I have seen some take downs, that I wish I could "unsee", of children. It was so disturbing for me, I quit teaching school.