TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[KatzHome]

I could not agee with you more Cass.......you're absolutely right.

His the story............read it again all of you!

http://www.1stcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=81308

xxxxxxxxooooooo
mama

I don't get any story from that link... I'm glad she's geting a new trial ~ but I'm worried about the outcome of it... I read the Fox article and saw the picture of her mom by a self portrait drawn by Andrea in prison.

If the trial goes the way the first one did ~ Dr. lying about a show that was never aired ~ oh yeah, he said he "erred" ~ and the jury only taking 3 1/2 hours for deliberations... sigh ~ can Andrea handle another "freak show mock trial?"

 

[KatzHome]

In the first place, the conviction was overturned because of a problem with one of the expert witnesses. Not because the appellate court thinks she's mentally ill. Secondly, she is NOT going to be released from prision. She's still a danger to herself and others. They will most likely retry her, but she'll spend the time either in a jail/prison of some sort or a mental hospital. Since she had a clear and long history of mental issues, its my wish that the prosecutor will agree to having her committed to a mental institution for the remainder of her life. While she may not be suicidal at this moment due to the medication she's on, she has, at least three times in prison already, either talked about suicide or tried it.

As another poster said, since Yates' trial, at least three mothers who murdered their children have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. Two of these women had absolutely NO history of mental illness whatsoever. If Yates doesn't fit the definition of mentally insane, its worthless in my opinion. I don't believe she should ever be free to walk amongst us, but neither should she be in prison either.

Yeah, that post gave me some hope if there is a new trial. I agree that the prosecutor should agree to having her committed to a mental institution. I am happy to read though that she was working in the prison flower garden the FOX had a photo of her mother standing by a self portrait of Andrea drawn in prison ~ at least she drew herself smiling. I really do feel bad for Andrea and for her mother.

 

[KatzHome]

I was always bothered by this case because of the conduct of her husband and by the prosecution in seeking the death penalty when she was so obviously sick.

Now I'm REALLY steamed because it turns out that the prosecution's witness LIED. Not a little mistake... a big fat lie. He said that maybe Andrea had been influenced by seeing an episode of Law & Order in which a woman drowns her kids and is found to be insane. No such episode existed!! Regardless of how you feel about what she did, no one should be convicted based on perjured testimony.

While insanity does not necessarily make someone inable to "tell right from wrong" and while she certainly did carry things out in a methodical fashion, I believe she was following the orders she was hearing in her head. If "the voices" told her to call her husband and call 911, then that's what she did. I also believe that she would certainly have killed herself soon after the whole episode if she had not been taken into custody.

I also agree that Rusty should visit the urologist for a little nip and tuck before he produces another litter.

Great post ~ thanks!

 

[Love_Mama]

I don't get any story from that link... I'm glad she's geting a new trial ~ but I'm worried about the outcome of it... I read the Fox article and saw the picture of her mom by a self portrait drawn by Andrea in prison.

If the trial goes the way the first one did ~ Dr. lying about a show that was never aired ~ oh yeah, he said he "erred" ~ and the jury only taking 3 1/2 hours for deliberations... sigh ~ can Andrea handle another "freak show mock trial?"

KatzHome........just scroll down to where it say's BACKGROUND.

xxxxxxxxxooooo
mama

 

[Jeana (DP)]

What's not being realistic? I don't want her getting pregnant even if the child is taken away. People incarcerated should not be allowed to reproduce! I'd allow anesthesia for Andrea, but not for Rusty!!

In the first place, I seriously doubt that she's having sex either in prison or when she's in the hospital, and secondly, we're not in China! America doesn't sterilize people (even the ones who desperately need it).

 

[Jeana (DP)]

What I heard this morning is that the prosecutor's office is going to appeal the decision at the appellate court level. Since this was their decision, I doubt that they'll change their minds. This is what they call "getting off on a technicality." For those of you wondering what you can do to help Andrea, you can write to the court and to the prosecutor's office.

I'm attaching a link to a website about the Yates story. It contains a shockingly beautiful picture (a glamour shot) of Andrea when she had use of her mind and it also talks about Rusty. Please take the time to read the website:

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_yates.html

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Excerpts from an article in today's Dallas Morning News:

Doctor knew testimony was flawed
Dietz's erroneous testimony led to verdict being overturned

Park Dietz For more than a quarter-century, psychiatrist Park Dietz has testified at the trials of notorious criminals.

The list includes Unabomber Theodore Kaczynski, serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer and would-be presidential assassin John Hinckley Jr.

Dr. Dietz, often the go-to guy for prosecutors, has himself been under the microscope for testimony he gave in the Andrea Yates trial.

His testimony described a similar crime in what turned out to be a non-existent episode of the television series Law & Order. That erroneous testimony led a Houston appeals court on Thursday to overturn the murder conviction of Mrs. Yates for drowning her children.

A receptionist at Dr. Dietz's office in Newport Beach, Calif., said Thursday that neither Dr. Dietz nor his firm had an immediate comment on the court's decision. And the judges noted in their opinion that Dr. Dietz "acknowledged that he had made an error in his testimony."

In a rare interview on the subject with The Dallas Morning News in April, Dr. Dietz discussed his testimony. He called it a mistake, adding that he offered to return to Houston at his own expense to correct it while the Yates trial was under way.

* * *

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/010705dntexdeitz.3d9ed.html

 

[kato]

What I heard this morning is that the prosecutor's office is going to appeal the decision at the appellate court level. Since this was their decision, I doubt that they'll change their minds. This is what they call "getting off on a technicality." For those of you wondering what you can do to help Andrea, you can write to the court and to the prosecutor's office.

I'm attaching a link to a website about the Yates story. It contains a shockingly beautiful picture (a glamour shot) of Andrea when she had use of her mind and it also talks about Rusty. Please take the time to read the website:

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_yates.html

I saw that pic (looked like a glamour shot) last night for the 1st time and was shocked. She fixed up purty well.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I saw that pic (looked like a glamour shot) last night for the 1st time and was shocked. She fixed up purty well.

Kato, not to be flippant about this case because its so serious, but she homeschooled 5 kids and attended to every one of their needs by herself for all intents and purposes. Rusty didn't seem to be much of a provider of anything except sperm. This by itself is enough to make anyone a little nutty. All of that combined with their "religeon" and her mental illness was just too much!!!

 

[Pepper]

By the way ..no link just memory jogging...remember reading years ago of a woman hospitalized after drowning her two kids..after many years of treatment was out remarried had kids and did it again.......Not to scare anyway but you just never know!!!:hand:

My point exactly! Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if she is found to be legally insane then she will be remanded to a mental hospital until such time as her doctors pronounce her cured! At that time she may be released!

I have no problem with her receiving treatment in a mental facility, so long as the people of Texas can rest assured that she will NEVER be released.

I also think we have to ask if we are willing to deem her insane, is it because she is a woman? If a man had done something similar with a similar history, wouldn't we just call him a monster and demand the death penalty?

I think of those poor children begging and fighting for their life, futilely, against their mother's overpowering strength, and the haunting words of the one who said something like, "Mommy, I'll be good, I promise. Don't hurt me."

 

[kato]

Kato, not to be flippant about this case because its so serious, but she homeschooled 5 kids and attended to every one of their needs by herself for all intents and purposes. Rusty didn't seem to be much of a provider of anything except sperm. This by itself is enough to make anyone a little nutty. All of that combined with their "religeon" and her mental illness was just too much!!!

I agree about the flippant part. I guess I'm just a hard *ss when it comes to mental illness. Granted I don't have 5 kids and really nothing else in common with Andrea. But I do suffer from and have since my teens with major depression. I was in and out of hospitals since the age of 14. My real father put me in my 1st one when I was 9. I had problems. But who wouldn't have problems being shifted from foster home to foster home since the age of 4 and then one of your real parents wants you back and you go and it doesn't work out. I had major problems (couldn't keep a job cuz I couldn't leave the house on some days, suicide attempts, anorexia, bulimia, not able to maintain a healthy relationship) until I was 30. But I would never dream about or thought about hurting someone else. I finally realized that I did need help and checked myself in for the last time (hopefully) Granted, I do take medication and am very well now. I've had my same job for almost 8 years and have been with my BF for 9. But suffering from major clinical depression is a daily struggle that I will have to deal with my whole life. I'm not ashamed of myself because alot of people have problems. People who do not suffer from this do not understand. Depression is totally different from sadness. And Jeana I know you know the difference personally. I'm just trying to explain my reasoning to others.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is it is becoming quite trendy these days for people to commit crimes and blame it on mental illness.

 

[SoloFlyer]

Obviously Andrea has mental issues but then again everyone does. Hers were certainly exacerbated by her "religion" and her lack of support. Honestly I believe that Rusty, her preacher friend and several of the Doctors that treated her need to be held accountable. It does not take a genius to figure out that a mentally unstable woman should NEVER be left alone with 5 children to care for 24/7. That is enough to make a sane person crazy, Never mind the living in a bus and home-schooling.

Andrea reached out for help several times, she knew that her thoughts were wrong. She had the composure and aforethought to drown the children in a methodical manner. It is unfortunate that she chose this way out but she chose it and deserves to pay the consequences.

I am all for mandatory sterilization of some people that have proven they are not fit to parent. Andrea and Rusty Yates are at the top of that list as well as any murderer, child molester, child abuser or those that just have another child each year just for the increase in welfare payments.

I once knew a man that bragged about having 18 children by 16 different women. He never had a job or paid any child support but he did manage to steal some diapers occaisionally. This man was a mere 26 years old at the time! He wanted to beat the world record for fathering children, that was his entire life's ambition. It took all I had not to reach down and cut off his family jewels as he spoke.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Thanks for your post Kato!! Looking at those pictures of Andrea when she was "well" and the pictures of her the day of the murders and during the trial. I think all of us need to be a little more open to accepting and discussing mental illness. Most of us have been affected by it in one way or another. Also, something for most of us to keep in mind is that just because we may not have these issues "now" doesn't mean that we're especially immune to ever having them. They can strike without warning, or being barred by gender, race, religeon, or economic background!!! Andrea Yates, was then and is now by far one of the more seriously ill people I can remember hearing about. I take a great deal of pride in Texas being tough on criminals, but I'm ashamed that the jury couldn't look at this woman and see that she was totally and completely out of her mind when she killed those kids.

 

[kato]

Thanks for your post Kato!! Looking at those pictures of Andrea when she was "well" and the pictures of her the day of the murders and during the trial. I think all of us need to be a little more open to accepting and discussing mental illness. Most of us have been affected by it in one way or another. Also, something for most of us to keep in mind is that just because we may not have these issues "now" doesn't mean that we're especially immune to ever having them. They can strike without warning, or being barred by gender, race, religeon, or economic background!!! Andrea Yates, was then and is now by far one of the more seriously ill people I can remember hearing about. I take a great deal of pride in Texas being tough on criminals, but I'm ashamed that the jury couldn't look at this woman and see that she was totally and completely out of her mind when she killed those kids.

And thank you, Jeana. I like that we can post to each other and still understand where the other one is coming from.

 

[cynder]

My point exactly! Now I could be wrong, but my understanding is that if she is found to be legally insane then she will be remanded to a mental hospital until such time as her doctors pronounce her cured! At that time she may be released!
I have no problem with her receiving treatment in a mental facility, so long as the people of Texas can rest assured that she will NEVER be released.
I also think we have to ask if we are willing to deem her insane, is it because she is a woman? If a man had done something similar with a similar history, wouldn't we just call him a monster and demand the death penalty?

If you do research - murderers who are found to be insane statistically spend MORE time in custody than those who are found guilty and receive sentences of less than death or life without parole. Most are so sick that they are never released and die in a state hospital while in custody. Andrea is not likely to be released EVER - nor is she likely to remarry or have more children. What is sad is that Rusty Yates is free to do both and probably will as soon as he can find a suitably controllable woman.
You cannot compare men and women in this specific instance - men do not suffer from post partum psychosis. Aside from that Andrea is/was not just depressed - she is/was also psychotic with some evidence of schizophrenia as well. Schizophrenic Hinckley is in a mental institution (not prison) so the insanity defense does not just apply to women. I understand severe depression but this went far beyond that into the realm of true psychosis. Andrea was catatonic for months at a time - unable to care for herself, much less 5 children - 2 of which were basically infants requiring full time care. For Rusty to assume she would miraculously "get better" makes him as guilty (and maybe more so, since he was not ill) as Andrea in the death of the children.
To say Andrea is guilty because she called 911 or "knew" what she did was wrong is to deny the whole nature of this type of psychosis. What IS mental illness if not being forced by your mind into behaviors deemed inappropriate by society? How can anyone look at that woman and say that she was capable of resisting the psychosis. And it wasn't as if she had not asked for help in her more rational moments - she must have felt by that point that there was no hope and no help - she had just recently been to see her Dr and had received no relief from the voices in her head or the compulsions that were taking over her every waking moment.
Andrea was literally forced to kill her children by an inner drive so compelling no sane person would understand. She felt she HAD to kill them to save them from Satan and her Sins in not raising them properly. While she did not WANT to kill them and fought against it, the voices and feelings conjured up in her psychosis convinced her that she HAD to kill them to save them. That is why she should be found "insane" - for even though she did not WANT to kill the children she did so anyway. She called 911 because in her mind she was deserving of punishment and even death for being unable to raise the childen properly and having to kill them to save them. Suicide by the state because she was unsuccessful in doing it herself (she had made several attempts). In her mind it was not wrong to save the children from Satan by killing them, but she herself was at fault by not raising them properly - if she had been a better mother they would not have needed saving. IE - it was her fault they died and therefore she was guilty. Very different from Susan Smith.
Andrea remains on a constant suicide watch on 4 different strong anti-psychotic medications. Despite these, she continues to slowly sink deeper into a world in her own mind. She will never be well enough to be released from the hospital and will likely die there. She belongs in a place where she can be properly cared for and looked after and at least be relieved of the worst of the self-injurious compulsions.
Remember - what we do as a society in the way we treat the least among us, we will eventually rationalize in the way we treat all of mankind. It is a very small step from condemning the mentally ill to condemning anyone who we see as inferior or different from us.

 

[kato]

Cynder:

Not quoting your post cuz it's so long. But you make some very good points.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Good post Cynder!!!! Expecting someone whose mentally ill to "know" they're in trouble is past ridiculous.

 

[luthersmama]

Here is an article about a particularly gruesome murder that took place in 1978. The man who committed it was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now wants out of his hospital. He has not been discharged and I doubt that he ever will be, although he is allowed out for hours at a time.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/043004_nw_wifekiller.html


Now Pennsylvania has a "guilty but insane" option that keeps insane killers behind bars forever. That is the verdict that was handed down for John DuPont. I do not believe that "guilty but insane" was on the books when Greist was tried.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

http://courttv.com/trials/yates/docs/overturn.html

Link to the decision.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Here is an article about a particularly gruesome murder that took place in 1978. The man who committed it was found not guilty by reason of insanity and now wants out of his hospital. He has not been discharged and I doubt that he ever will be, although he is allowed out for hours at a time.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/043004_nw_wifekiller.html


Now Pennsylvania has a "guilty but insane" option that keeps insane killers behind bars forever. That is the verdict that was handed down for John DuPont. I do not believe that "guilty but insane" was on the books when Greist was tried.

OHMYGOD!!!

He slashed his pregnant wife to death, tore the fetus from her body and mutilated him, stabbed his six-year-old daughter in the eye and attacked his grandmother. Greist was found innocent by reason of insanity and has been in the state's largest mental hospital ever since.