TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #5

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Jax49 said:
It isn't new. Happened on the first day, iirc. Judge was upset but there seem to be no action taken. She did warn the DA that their boss better know the rules apply to him too.
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There is new talk about it today. Course the media is probably just trying to stir the pot.
 
Rocco said:
I have a permit to carry and do it all the time. But, I can honestly say if I came home and found someone in my house, I would not automatically shoot him. In the state I live in, there's no duty to retreat, but shooting and killing someone would be my last option. If I had to shoot someone, I would, but there would have to be a genuine, clear, imminent threat and no other choice. And I sure as heck would turn on the light to see who I was shooting and if that person had a weapon.
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Thank you for this great post. It's pretty hard to get CC permit where I live, although I probably could (teachers are successful getting them). BUT, I don't want one. I am too distractible. Anyway, this was food for thought and we just had a convo about our own views on when to use weapons. If I was coming through my front door (armed or unarmed), and a stranger was in the house, I would retreat. If I did have a weapon on me, or available, I'd surely unholster it and have it available - but I would be across the street, watching to see if anyone came out of the house toward me, and I would be dialing 911.

If, OTOH, I was already inside myself and someone broke down the door, I'd move to the room where we keep our weapons and be prepared to shoot (we recently replaced our wooden framed door with a metal one, due to home invasions in our area, plus we have a camera on the porch and another two in the front yard and driveway, and another one in the side yard...).

The cops who taught me self defense (and my dad) were all about different levels of force. I tend to stay calm in emergencies.

I don't know if there are any laws in Texas (or anywhere) that require a person to assess the threat and match it to the amount of force used to repel it. I used to think that police were supposed to do that, that their training was about that. For me, it would be my own moral and ethical system at play. Neither I nor my husband want to kill anyone, try to avoid any contexts where that would happen, and do not regard our weaponry as something to be used in a situation where it could be avoided. OTOH, I am older and that plays a role. I keep wondering how I'd view this, as a juror.

I believe Ms Guyger needs to be convicted, and I am not buying the "mistake of fact" as the only factor in this case. Anyone who does carry all the time (and someone who has hollow point bullets!) needs to be in a frame of mind to assess threat, not tired or confused. It was not an accidental discharge of any kind, she decided to shoot and she knew her weapon was loaded hollow point. She shot with intent to kill. It was not mere negligence, it was more than that.
 
dog.gone.cute said:
BBM: My thoughts exactly!

And back to that 9-1-1 call ... IIRC, the length of the call was a little over 5 minutes -- which 5 minutes MAY have made a difference in saving this man's life is she would have rendered aid!

But AG was too busy texting and too busy about saving her own arse.

MOO
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And this is what really makes my blood boil!!! AG’s inaction is completely unforgivable. No different than hit and run. Just sickening.
 
Anyone, what time does court resume tomorrow? Thanks
 
rosesfromangels said:
Agree with you, as usual.
I do think she had remorse and made a horrible, horrible deadly mistake. And yes, she must be held to a higher standard as a public servant carrying a gun. She will have to be sentenced according to law. I'm more interested in the civil case that will follow. I think she'll get 2 years in prison, and 5 probation.

Amateur opinion and speculation
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Can you say why the civil case is more interesting? It'll be against Dallas PD, right? I don't think remorse enters into this, exactly. I think it's about her intention. As a regular citizen, I think I have a duty not to kill people and that my own fear is only one factor. My ability to properly judge a situation is part of what I think gun use is about. If I can't properly regulate my use of a weapon and someone is injured or killed and I intentionally pulled the trigger...that's pretty serious. More than 2 years serious. But I hear you. Are you thinking that Ms Guyger shouldn't bear the main brunt of the punishment - but instead, City of Dallas?
 
She needs to be held accountable. She will be, but it's not murder. I am upset with the divisiveness of this . It is not Police vs black. You have 2 options here: She was (stupid) distracted and walked into an apartment that she THOUGHT was hers and should not have reacted they way she did or she went upstairs to kill a black man. It's that simple and a very sad situation.
 
2 thoughts here - I know we’ve said that what happens after she shoots doesn’t matter but then I sat back and thought about it. Even with significant damage from the bullet, he still had a pulse and was still breathing at the time the other officers arrived. I’m not sure you can recover from being shot like that but the fact that she did not render aid or start CPR makes me wonder.

Could he still live with a shot like that? And by not rendering aid, aren’t you technically killing him by not trying to save him?

2. I think it speaks to itself that 3 people somewhat (including guyger) involved in this case have all killed somebody. Of course they are gonna be extremely biased towards amber.
 
10ofRods said:
Can you say why the civil case is more interesting? It'll be against Dallas PD, right? I don't think remorse enters into this, exactly. I think it's about her intention. As a regular citizen, I think I have a duty not to kill people and that my own fear is only one factor. My ability to properly judge a situation is part of what I think gun use is about. If I can't properly regulate my use of a weapon and someone is injured or killed and I intentionally pulled the trigger...that's pretty serious. More than 2 years serious. But I hear you. Are you thinking that Ms Guyger shouldn't bear the main brunt of the punishment - but instead, City of Dallas?
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I think that the civil lawsuit will be very interesting.

Will Dallas PD be at fault if AG did NOT follow correct procedures? If the procedure is to retreat and call for backup unless in mortal danger...the discussion would be if AG was in mortal danger. A very high bar.

I don't see the civil lawsuit a slam dunk, even if AG is convicted.

@sillybilly or @TriciaH
Can we please have a new thread?
 
CrimeDawg123 said:
She didn't plan to murder him ahead of time, sure. But she certainly did intend to kill him when she unholstered, aimed, and fired her gun.
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She intended. I think that’s super clear. Maybe not premeditated his murder and yes, mistakingly walked in to the wrong place. But Let’s not forget the first shot went into the wall. She shot twice. The second hit bo.
 
VAgirlatheart said:
She intended. I think that’s super clear. Maybe not premeditated his murder and yes, mistakingly walked in to the wrong place. But Let’s not forget the first shot went into the wall. She shot twice. The second hit bo.
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Glad to see you VAgirl - we've been hoping you have a source for which shot struck Bo. Last I heard was the judge yesterday saying we can't tell. TIA
 
VAgirlatheart said:
She intended. I think that’s super clear. Maybe not premeditated his murder and yes, mistakingly walked in to the wrong place. But Let’s not forget the first shot went into the wall. She shot twice. The second hit bo.
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Do you happen to have a link for that? From what I've heard and read, they can't determine which shot was fired first.
 
Jax49 said:
Glad to see you VAgirl - we've been hoping you have a source for which shot struck Bo. Last I heard was the judge yesterday saying we can't tell. TIA
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Jax--What the heck? I think we were separated at birth. We've posted the same thing, at the same time, multiple times now.
 
VAgirlatheart said:
2 thoughts here - I know we’ve said that what happens after she shoots doesn’t matter but then I sat back and thought about it. Even with significant damage from the bullet, he still had a pulse and was still breathing at the time the other officers arrived. I’m not sure you can recover from being shot like that but the fact that she did not render aid or start CPR makes me wonder.

Could he still live with a shot like that? And by not rendering aid, aren’t you technically killing him by not trying to save him?

2. I think it speaks to itself that 3 people somewhat (including guyger) involved in this case have all killed somebody. Of course they are gonna be extremely biased towards amber.
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It's called the The blue wall of silence, the informal rule that purportedly exists among police officers not to report on a colleague's errors, misconducts, or crimes, including police brutality. If questioned about an incident of alleged misconduct involving another officer (e.g., during the course of an official inquiry), while following the code, the officer being questioned would claim ignorance of another officer's wrongdoing or claim to have not seen anything.
 
10ofRods said:
It's pretty hard to get CC permit where I live.
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Are you in the NorthEast perchance? I live in the NY tri-state area and it takes between 10-12 months to get a handgun license. Maybe a month if you want a long gun. I don't mind because I don't have a firearm and have no desire to have one.

I live in a semi-urban area and like you I too(10ofRods) - have designated areas of the house that we can retreat to in - case of a home invasion. My local police station is about a mile away and response time is about 4 minutes. My neighbor - a few doors down - is a police officer. I would rather - NO KILL - than kill someone.
 
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