TX - Scott Buchholtz-Sanchez, 3 wks, decapitated, San Antonio, July 2009 *Insanity*

[OrdinaryLife]

dotseyes-- I agree with you. I mean, where do we draw the line, when it comes to keeping people alive?? How hideously inhuman does an action have to be before we say,, OK, the line is crossed-- we need to remove them from civilized society, for good?
In any other society she would have been quickly killed (or tortured for 'possession'- which would have been pointless and even more cruel). What is it about our society that insists on keeping those like her alive and 'rehabilitating' them...??? For what.....???? For the good of society, herself, and for god's sake-- the human gene pool-- she needs to be declared crimincally insane and euthanized (not executed). Yes, OK we get it- she is mentally ill-- (and if it's because of drugs then it is partly her own fault!) -but no, she should not live. And no, this doesn't mean we should put to death everyone who has depression and whatnot-- so please don't drag all that stuff out again people.

"The human gene pool"??? Seriously??? I guess that would mean that where I have family members that suffer from mental illness, that they should have been "euthanized" because of their mental status. No, they did not murder their children, but the threat was there as well as killing themselves. Do you even understand mental illness????

I **SO** disagree with your post on every possible level.... In my very humble opinion.

 

[reb]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/ap_on_re_us/us_baby_decapitated

<"She's gone crazy last night. She was hearing voices," Garcia said. "She kept bringing me the baby. Finally she calmed down and I took her back the baby. And now I just woke up to hear screaming.>

Okay!! ....so the sister personally witnessed the mother losing mind, hearing voices,, and the mother kept 'bringing her the baby'. and then... LOGICALLY, the sister 'took her back the baby'...!! of course,, brilliant!! yes,, give the crazy woman hearing voices back her baby, after she keeps giving it to you.

they should all be locked up for utter stupidity...

 

[reb]

ordinarylife- OK.. but i'm talking about THIS situation,, not your situation.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

ordinarylife- OK.. but i'm talking about THIS situation,, not your situation.

These situations happen to many with some becoming more tragic than others. The only difference is someone I know didn't end up on CNN, but this woman did.

A post was made and I responded. So, the mentally ill and the involvement of the "gene pool". Where the "gene pool" is a reality, should we also consider the children of those who are mentally ill? Should they be tagged as murderer possibilities for the future??? What do we do about them?

You brought it up so I'm asking.....

imvho

 

[Angels_Not_Forgotten]

there are so many things that can cause this from PPD to your pituitary gland bleeding out during labor, so many things. It's so so SO extremely important to keep an eye on a new mom, not to "make sure she doesn't screw up" but to be there for someone you love and care about and to ensure that a CHILD'S safety is always there. I know plenty of my friends who say "Stop mother henning me!" and I say "Look, i've seen to many CNN story's, i'm NOT doubting your ability to parent, there are just sometimes when it helps to have an extra person that loves you and wants to to succeed, I just happen to be that person." I actually called my MIL and asked her to stay for the first 6 months (Gasp, my MIL! i love that woman!). ok sorry, probably rambling and off topic i just can't stand to see any more of these stories, childbirth, my friends, will do WONDERS to a womans mind!

 

[southcitymom]

dotseyes-- I agree with you. I mean, where do we draw the line, when it comes to keeping people alive?? How hideously inhuman does an action have to be before we say,, OK, the line is crossed-- we need to remove them from civilized society, for good?
In any other society she would have been quickly killed (or tortured for 'possession'- which would have been pointless and even more cruel). What is it about our society that insists on keeping those like her alive and 'rehabilitating' them...??? For what.....???? For the good of society, herself, and for god's sake-- the human gene pool-- she needs to be declared crimincally insane and euthanized (not executed). Yes, OK we get it- she is mentally ill-- (and if it's because of drugs then it is partly her own fault!) -but no, she should not live. And no, this doesn't mean we should put to death everyone who has depression and whatnot-- so please don't drag all that stuff out again people.

You know, reb, part of what you say about euthanasia (and I appreciate your choice of that word over "execution") appeals to me on a very real level. Not for the same reasons that you state - I mean, you and I have known each other a while and so you know I am the original bleeding heart! :crazy:

It appeals to me because I have a very real belief that euthanizing a mentally ill person who has committed an atrocity such as this could very well be infinitely kinder than letting that person live with the knowledge of what they did among the ongoing hell that can be schizophrenia. Suicide rates are high among those with mental illness for this exact reason - the chance of oblivion (or anything else) is so much more appealing than the living nightmare their lives feel like.

I have no problem putting down an animal who cannot be helped - I believe human beings have a noble obligation in this regard to our animal friends. But when the conversation turns back to a human being, I can't make the same leap because of my belief that none of us should ever take away someone else's free will desire to live.

Also, I have watched people come to the other side of horrible mental diseases and so I know that hope for change is always there and we cannot, from the outside looking in, rightfully determine who might be able to change and who might not.

 

[bogeygal]

Mom of decapitated baby: 'I didn't mean to do it'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/ap_on_re_us/us_baby_decapitated

Oops! This was posted above, sorry!

 

[southcitymom]

Mom of decapitated baby: 'I didn't mean to do it'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090729/ap_on_re_us/us_baby_decapitated

Oops! This was posted above, sorry!

Thanks, bogey. Breaks my heart.

 

[believe09]

FWIW-I think this is a classic case of expecting too much from this deeply troubled woman. Her family expected her to live up to her responsibility at a time when the wheels were coming off-she told them the wheels were coming off and still they expected her to deal with it.

She couldnt.

I think euthanasia would be infinitely kinder to her.

 

[kgeaux]

<#2. A rabid dog cannot be "fixed" but schizophrenia CAN. It is controllable with proper medication.>

wrong. what you mean is,, 'sometimes.. it MIGHT be able to be fixed'. most of the time, the person goes off it for one reason or another (unless they have someone watching them 24 hrs a day for the rest of their lives)... or they build up a resistance to it, it stops working, etc.... or it only works partially. there is definitely no black and white quick & easy fix.

I don't think I'm wrong. As I've said before, I have one-on-one experience with paranoid schizophrenia in my family. He has been medicated and doing well--from a bum to an educated member of society, succeeding at a difficult job, from a wild man to a doting husband and father--so I KNOW that medication fixed him. Yes, he will probably have to take it the rest of his life. Yes, his family and doctors all are active in monitoring him.

You are right that there is no black and white. Human beings are very complex and every situation and tragedy is its own. In the situation of this mother, she left her meds behind at her boyfriends, she sought medical help, her boyfriend and MIL called LE after she lost it during a visit, she told members of her family that she was hearing voices, and she was STILL allowed to have access to her child. She desired to breastfeed her son, which makes me think she genuinely cared about the baby's health and wanted a close relationship with him. She TRIED to avoid this, she took the baby to her sister and told her she needed help because she was hearing voices and sis brings little Scotty back to her! (This tells me her family didn't have a clue what the implications of schizophrenia are.)

(Did you read in the article that she said "He told me to do it, I didn't mean to kill him" Was she thinking her baby was ordering her to do this? Did she not realize that cutting her baby and eating his brain would result in his death?)

Again, IF she is determined to be legally insane, she doesn't get off scott-free: she simply serves her time in a different setting than a prison. I can tell you that if she is genuinely severely mentally ill, no court in this nation will sentence her to death. That's not an accident, that is JUSTICE.

ordinarylife- OK.. but i'm talking about THIS situation,, not your situation.

Reb, right now you are talking about this particular case. However, if the laws that protect the mentally ill from punishments that they cannot even comprehend, for committing crimes they did not understand the consequences of, then it becomes effective for MY relatives, YOUR relatives and ORDINARY'S relatives. Whether you mean to or not, you are advocating the death penalty for those who suffer from severe mental illness, not just this one woman.

I really truly believe that those of you who feel like that haven't had any personal experience with watching someone you desperately love slide into mental illness. It isn't something people choose to do. It could happen to any one of us.

 

[kgeaux]

"The human gene pool"??? Seriously??? I guess that would mean that where I have family members that suffer from mental illness, that they should have been "euthanized" because of their mental status. No, they did not murder their children, but the threat was there as well as killing themselves. Do you even understand mental illness????

I **SO** disagree with your post on every possible level.... In my very humble opinion.

\
You've raised quite a good point.

I have two little nieces who are ages 5 and 2. They are beautiful, happy, smart and caring little girls and we just love them up one side and down the other!

BUT THEIR DADDY HAS SCHIZOPHRENIA. So I guess that means they come from that "tainted gene pool."

What should we do with these girls? Kill them now, just in case they might become mentally ill far in the future? Or treat them with love, compassion and mercy?

God bless you, ordinary! I am sure that the answer to your last question is a resounding "NO I DO NOT." I betcha it wasn't even understood how demeaning and hurtful the term "tainted gene pool" is.

 

[reb]

so you all would rather keep her alive to live to be drugged up and in torment the rest of her life? so,, what she can go out and have more babies again...??

 

[kgeaux]

so you all would rather keep her alive to live to be drugged up and in torment the rest of her life? so,, what she can go out and have more babies again...??

Reb, she would be MEDICATED. She would not be "drugged up." There is a vast difference between the two!

And if she is properly medicated and well monitored she will certainly come to understand what she has done, and I imagine that would be torment for her. I would imagine that part of her treatment would include counseling to help her understand that her actions were the result of being completely insane at the time. I hope and pray she never has another child----I think doctors would really, really discourage someone who'd suffered from ppp from having another pregnancy. If she did ever have another child, I am sure that she would not be allowed to be alone with the child until doctors determined she was healthy enough to do so.

Lastly, I don't "want" anything in particular for this woman, aside from the laws of justice to be followed. IF she meets the guidelines for "legally insane" then she is not eligible for the death penalty.

 

[Kymistry35]

I am so heartbroken over this. That poor baby, may he RIP. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY THE H*** THE SISTER GAVE THE BABY BACK TO HER, knowing that she was "out of her mind" The mother obviously knew something was wrong which is why she kept bringing the baby back to her sister.

 

[Blackwatch]

so you all would rather keep her alive to live to be drugged up and in torment the rest of her life? so,, what she can go out and have more babies again...??

Posts like this hurt me to the core. I don't have any schizophrenics in the family, but manic-depression is one short step down. I honestly believed we, as educated human beings, were past the medieval mindset of torture and kill, but I see some are not and that hurts my heart.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I am so heartbroken over this. That poor baby, may he RIP. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY THE H*** THE SISTER GAVE THE BABY BACK TO HER, knowing that she was "out of her mind" The mother obviously knew something was wrong which is why she kept bringing the baby back to her sister.

I agree. That woman, even in her insanity, was asking for help. That saddens me, greatly.

 

[southcitymom]

so you all would rather keep her alive to live to be drugged up and in torment the rest of her life? so,, what she can go out and have more babies again...??

I get some of what I think you're saying here, Reb. The question of severe mental illness and reproductive rights has weighed on my mind constantly since we began discussing this case. Oddly enough, I haven't formed a full opinion on the issue (and I rarely meet an issue I can't form an opinion on - LOL!)

I don't even think in terms of "keep her alive" because I don't believe we (society) have the moral authority to take her (or anyone's) life. Therefore, we have a duty to help every single human being here with us live the fullest lives they can possibly live.

I'm not swimming with close personal friends who are schizophrenic, but my experience has been that there is recovery from schizophrenia. Real, honest-to-God recovery. What are the statistics? I don't know and I don't care (I think statistics are useless).

But look at it this way. It sounds like this woman not only had schizophrenia, but also PPP. PPP (super rare) is temporary - it goes away eventually. The PPP probably pushed her over the edge to commit such atrocities, but it's not something that stays with a person forever.

Yes, I want her to get help to manage her condition. As far as the "babies again" issue - that is scary to contemplate.

 

[Baxter]

I am so heartbroken over this. That poor baby, may he RIP. WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY THE H*** THE SISTER GAVE THE BABY BACK TO HER, knowing that she was "out of her mind" The mother obviously knew something was wrong which is why she kept bringing the baby back to her sister.

Some people truly can not understand mental illness. If it is not physical- it doesn't exist. My extended family has different forms of mental illness. When I first married my husband, he couldn't understand it at all.

It is a shame that her doctors did not sit down with this family and explain the severity of this situation.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

so you all would rather keep her alive to live to be drugged up and in torment the rest of her life? so,, what she can go out and have more babies again...??

I cannot understand this kind of post/thinking. I must ask, where there are people who have done such crimes due to mental illness or have even shown signs of damaging behavior towards others because of it, should putting them out of their misery be an option? You know, death like we would for an pet? If that is the option, then what about their offspring? Should we do the same as a preventative measure????

 

[Fairy1]

so you all would rather keep her alive to live to be drugged up and in torment the rest of her life? so,, what she can go out and have more babies again...??

I doubt very much this woman will be "going out" anywhere for a long, long time. Ironically, putting her to death - through whatever means - would be the kindest way to handle it - for her. Most likely, they will put her on meds in a controlled and secure environment which will eventually allow her to realize the horror of what she has done. It will be the cruelest punishment possible when she has to live with it for the rest of her life.

That being said, the idea of "euthanizing" the weakest of humans is the epitome of inhumane, IMO. Why stop at people with mental illness? If we're protecting the "gene pool" let's really get serious! FGS, isn't this type of thinking along the same lines as the Nazi's? Gives me the chills just thinking about it.