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TX - Scott Buchholtz-Sanchez, 3 wks, decapitated, San Antonio, July 2009 *Insanity*
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Native New Yorker
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Sorry I was not more clear in what I was stating...My concern for the mentally ill
( and by that I mean those for whom treatment has NOT been successful) is not that they would pass it on....
but what kind of parenting they are able to provide, in so many cases! Sorry, but I feel that this woman, given her history of instability, should have been sterilized....
IMO
In many cases, treatment and management is quite successful.
I am not talking about those cases at all. I am talking about bipolar or schizophrenia which is not successfully treated
also, in the case of my relative, extreme low level intelligence, borderline retardation, which made it impossible for her to care for her son....
( and by that I mean those for whom treatment has NOT been successful) is not that they would pass it on....
but what kind of parenting they are able to provide, in so many cases! Sorry, but I feel that this woman, given her history of instability, should have been sterilized....
IMO
In many cases, treatment and management is quite successful.
I am not talking about those cases at all. I am talking about bipolar or schizophrenia which is not successfully treated
also, in the case of my relative, extreme low level intelligence, borderline retardation, which made it impossible for her to care for her son....
<It isn't something people choose to do. It could happen to any one of us.>
#1)-- If it happened to her because of drugs- then it IS partly her fault, and it may not 'happen to any of us' because not all of us are stupid or self-destructive enough to get involved with illegal drugs.
#2) Yes, but hello-- what we are talking about here is DECAPITATING SOMEONE AND EATING THEIR BRAINS. If I personally 'slid down into' that sort of mental state and did such a thing, I would ABSOLUTELY expect (and, would probably WANT) society to put me out of my misery. Medication is not a magical cure-all. Sorry,, there is no place in the human race for this sort of behavior. Some of us believe there are lines that should not be crossed,, and their should be limits to sympathy.
#1)-- If it happened to her because of drugs- then it IS partly her fault, and it may not 'happen to any of us' because not all of us are stupid or self-destructive enough to get involved with illegal drugs.
#2) Yes, but hello-- what we are talking about here is DECAPITATING SOMEONE AND EATING THEIR BRAINS. If I personally 'slid down into' that sort of mental state and did such a thing, I would ABSOLUTELY expect (and, would probably WANT) society to put me out of my misery. Medication is not a magical cure-all. Sorry,, there is no place in the human race for this sort of behavior. Some of us believe there are lines that should not be crossed,, and their should be limits to sympathy.
OrdinaryLife
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There is absolutely no fixed standard of mental illness. Be it Bipolar, Schizophrenia, Manic Depression, or even Narcissism. With therapy and medication. Who decides what these people should or should not have? And, I have to disagree about medication. Not all, just like the mental disease, fits the "cure". That is what makes mental illness/behaviour so hard to treat. I truly would hope that anyone who is so quick to judge the "right" treatment plan would research how difficult mental illness is to treat and that is with following through a treatment plan with professionals.
If you have never had it touch your life, I think it is very hard to comprehend and be compassionate to those who are ill and their families. It is beyond heartwrenching to witness and there is absolutely nothing you can do about personally for those who are ill.
imvho
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http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6552362.html
"In the days before Otty Sanchez killed her 4-week-old son and mutilated his body, there were at least two major incidents where her behavior triggered a crisis response by doctors and police.
Yet, in each case, Sanchez slipped through the cracks and returned to her baby Scott W. Buchholz Sanchez at a near North Side home, where police said she killed the infant Sunday morning while her mother, sister, and two other young children apparently slept."
"In the days before Otty Sanchez killed her 4-week-old son and mutilated his body, there were at least two major incidents where her behavior triggered a crisis response by doctors and police.
Yet, in each case, Sanchez slipped through the cracks and returned to her baby Scott W. Buchholz Sanchez at a near North Side home, where police said she killed the infant Sunday morning while her mother, sister, and two other young children apparently slept."
bogeygal
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My only words now after hearing the 911 call, is that I pray the family member's who were present at the home get the proper counseling to help them after witnessing this unbelievable horrible murder.
I agree - the thought of the grandmother holding the dead baby... lord, what an image.
southcitymom
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I was stupid and self-destructive enough to abuse drugs for a long long time, but now I don't anymore (and that's been the case for a long long time too). Maybe it is my personal transition from hopeless, criminal drug addict to peaceful, positive, productive member of society that informs my belief that anyone can make a change for the better.
Many people with mental illnesses try to fix what's wrong with their head by using drugs/alcohol. This happens before they get a psychiatric diagnoses. It's common as dirt. It's actually fairly crafty because sometimes the drugs/alcohol work for a while - they feel better, a little more normal, etc....Of course, addiction eventually rears it's ugly head and things get even uglier than they were before the mentally ill person started using - this is the stage that often leads to treatment, institutionalization, etc...
I can't really know how I would react if I was so mentally ill that I murdered and cannibalized my infant. Unless you suffer from severe mental illness (and I don't think you do, reb, but perhaps I am wrong - if you do, I don't recall you ever mentioning it), I'm not sure you can say with much authority how you would react. People with severe mental illness have brain chemistries that those of us who do not bear such a cross cannot even pretend to fathom.
southcitymom
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Great article, joga - thanks for posting.
i am having a really hard time reconciling this situation and the extremes of both sides here on the board. it seems it's either oh that poor lady or let's exterminate the mentally ill! my problem with theses cases is that it seems right after they commit the crime they are telling how they didn't mean to or the voices made them do it. i believe yates called her husband right after and said you need to come home, i've killed all the children (something along those lines). in the 911 call, you can hear Sanchez screaming she didn't mean to do it. it seems the insanity defense comes down to did they know right from wrong? i can't understand how they could not have known what they were doing was wrong when usually right after they suddenly "realize" what they have done. is that something that happens to people w/ schizophrenia or PPP, can you be out one minute and back in the next realizing what you've done? why are people with these mental illnesses given the insanity defense when someone who is a sociopath or psychopath are just considered evil people? why should i view this in my mind any different than if someone picks up a child and molests and murder them? because they are two different illnesses or diseases? that's where i have trouble feeling sorry for her.
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I wrote about my relative, so yes, it has touched my life. The father of my children is a recovering addict/alcoholic ( 25 years sober) and also very narcissistic....
What I am talking about are women who should not have children. If they can barely cope with life as it is, why bring kids into it??? There are certainly enough people on this planet. I think that the severely mentally ill ( ones who were at one time institutionalized) should NOT have kids. That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it....
impatientredhead
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This is one of those things that only works in theory.
If you have a woman with a history of poor decision making, can barely cope, possibly add mental illness and/or substance abuse and then think the solution is they should have the clarity to realize they aren't cut out for motherhood is not realistic.
My personal opinion is that women who realize they shouldn't be mother's before being knee deep in are the exception, not the rule. I think we need to stop making women feel like being a mom is the most natural thing in the world and if you don't have that desire there is something wrong with you as woman. If it didn't still carry that stigma the next generation might be more comfortable saying hey this isn't for me.
CHICANA
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I love the constitution. It guarantees that ALL citizens are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If the government and the mere humans that work for it are granted the right to decide who can and cannot have children, we might as well do away with the constitution.
We can say one child is one too many til we're blue in the face, but regardless of what new laws and regulations are put in place, from time to time somthing like this will happen anyway.
If the government was granted the power to prevent those with severe mental disabilities to reproduce, I'd give it a matter of months before that power was abused.
There are no clear guidelines with mental illness, there will be no clear guidelines to determine who is and isn't allowed to have or keep their children.
It would start with people like Otty Sanchez but it will grow to include those with severe depression,post partum depression, and other temporary mental disorders.
It will happen because it will depend on people. Good ones, bad ones, dumb ones, biased ones, some will be on power trips. It will cost tax-payers a fortune and many will be abused to try to prevent the rare Otty Sanchez horror story. But it will happen anyway.
Women who fear losing their children will avoid pre-natal care and give birth at home, putting both the mother and child at risk.
It won't work. We can't fix everything. Sometimes bad things happen and there's nothing we can do about it.
Blue_Dolphin308
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DotsEyes:
No disrespect intended here, but maybe you should take a step back from this case. Because what you are saying is very hurtful to some in here! And it seems like no matter how people have tried to explain that mental illness is a REAL condition, you want to hear none of it, and continue to post hurtful things. I am sure there are people on this thread that have a mental health history, me included, and it is extremly hurtful to come here and read the posts you make that ALL people with mental illness need to be put to death, rather then get treatment, because they are a "waste" of space, or resources.
So I am asking you to please be considerate when your posting and not continue to push your death resolution!
Don't get me wrong this woman does need to be held responisble, but in a way that she can get help. Not in a way where she is put to death.
Sorry if I am out of line here, but am just very hurt by your reaction/response.
kgeaux
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You are willing to sentence this woman to death and you DON'T EVEN KNOW IF DRUGS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HER ILLNESS. Yes, her mom told police she didn't have mental problems, that she thought Otty was on drugs----but we've learned Otty had sought treatment for her mental illness PRIOR to the mom's statement. In fact, she had been in and out of mental hospitals.
You can certainly choose to kill yourself if you become mentally ill, but PLEASE don't put that burden on every mentally ill person. Personally, I believe what you are advocating to be barbarous, more in line with a country like Iran than USA; to be completely devoid of any real understanding of mental illness. There are people on this board who are related to seriously mentally ill people. You are spouting off that mentally ill people should not be allowed to have children--even though the fact is that the offspring of the mentally ill don't normally become mentally ill themselves. You are for eliminating the "tainted gene pool" saying "Oh, I am not talking about you and your family" but you ARE talking about every one of us who have mentally ill relatives. I truly believe you have no idea about how hurtful your statements are. What would you do with Kat, for instance? What would you do with my little neices? You are talking about real living human beings, can you see that?
Your understanding of the mentally ill seems to be "off"......for instance,if you "slid into" mental illness (you make it sound like she just wasn't watching her step!) you may not have any idea that what you'd done was wrong. If you believe that what you did wasn't wrong, you most assuredly would not expect to be executed--or put out of your misery, as you coin it. As you say, this woman opened up the skull of her child and ate his brains. And what did she say about that? "I didn't mean to kill him! He told me to!" That hardly sounds like she had any intention to hurt the baby and she had no clue what the results of her actions would be. What sane person would not understand that opening up the skull of a baby would result in death????
And Reb, there is room in the human race for compassion for those who are ill. Nobody is saying they wanted this "line to be crossed" but if this woman had no idea what the consequences of her actions would be, then she is LEGALLY mentally insane. To say that we have compassion for the mother is NOT to say that we do not ache and cry for baby Scotty. I wish his family had done more to protect him from his sick mother. The thought of what was done to him just makes me ill, but it doesn't make me want to sentence a very, very sick individual to death.
Thank god the laws of our country have more understanding for mental illness than some of what I've read on this board.
Blue_Dolphin308
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imo
You obviously do NOT understand mental illness, and neither does Dot's eyes.
That is why people who do have mental illness have sucha a hard time getting treatment, because they are scared to come forward, ebcause if they do then they are going to be made fun of.
This is why the topic "mental health" is such a TABOO subject, and why it is very difficult to be understood!
This is why there is so much INACCURATE information out there, because people REFUSE to learn abotu mental health issues, and rather chalk it up to someone who just is using it to get a way with a crime!
There are so many ignorant people out there in relation to What mental illness really is. It is this that causes false information to be spread, because people do not know what there talking about!
Please read up on Mental Illness BEFORE you judge someone who has a mental illness. Please EDUCATE yourself, rather then think you know it all!
I know that mental illness is very real.
I would hope that everyone with mental illness would get help.
I am compassionate to those who suffer from mental illness.
That being said, I simply cannot fathom that a mother who was so mentally ill could decaptitate her infant and cannibalize him. To me, I honestly don't think one rebound back to a mentally healthy state after committing such a heinous act.
I would hope that everyone with mental illness would get help.
I am compassionate to those who suffer from mental illness.
That being said, I simply cannot fathom that a mother who was so mentally ill could decaptitate her infant and cannibalize him. To me, I honestly don't think one rebound back to a mentally healthy state after committing such a heinous act.
BBM
It is possible, as SCM notes, that she had been self-medicating with drugs. But I also think it is really possible that the mom had convinced herself that Otty's strange behaviour was drugs - as this might have been easier for her to take, since she seems completely unaware (or unwilling to accept) that Otty had mental issues. We all are prone to making stretched excuses for our loved ones at times.
The baby's father, however, said that Otty took very good care of herself while pregnant, so I am inclined to think that she either never had a serious drug issue, or had left it in the past, as pregnancy is not always enough to make a hard core addict go cold turkey.