TX - Scott Buchholtz-Sanchez, 3 wks, decapitated, San Antonio, July 2009 *Insanity*

[MomofBoys]

I have lived with mental health disorders. In myself and in others.

With that context, I would not be opposed to this woman being sterilized and mandated into a facility for the rest of her years. She clearly had issues before what could be PPP. I want her to receive counseling and treatment, not only for her illness but in her inevitable grief. I can't imagine NOT wanting to commit suicide in her situation. I'd do it in a second.

However, she can receive that treatment under constant inhouse supervision. I don't believe she should ever again be free. I support the DP, but not in this case. I can't bring myself to think she should ever be able to interact with anyone without LE/DR controls, though.

I find the 911 call heartwrenching, because it's clear that both she and the sister knew things weren't right beforehand. Why, why, why did the sister give that baby back to her after she confessed she was hearing voices? Does love trump sense? I can't say what I would have done, but it's so clear this woman was not well and after receiving a diagnosis I just can't fathom this being allowed to happen.

People seem to be all for testing after birth, etc, but the testing didn't do a heck of a lot of good in this case. She had a diagnosis and they sent her into an environment where they were very obviously unequipped to deal. You don't want to take babies away on 'what-ifs' yet there should be nurses present or a baby bodyguard. I know I'd want that for myself and my baby.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6552362.html

"In the days before Otty Sanchez killed her 4-week-old son and mutilated his body, there were at least two major incidents where her behavior triggered a crisis response by doctors and police.

Yet, in each case, Sanchez slipped through the cracks and returned to her baby Scott W. Buchholz Sanchez at a near North Side home, where police said she killed the infant Sunday morning while her mother, sister, and two other young children apparently slept."

I'm sorry and perhaps this is rather judgmental of me.. but when I read this part:

On July 20, after doctors at a local clinic determined Sanchez, 33, was having a severe mental breakdown, she was transported to the Metropolitan Methodist Hospital emergency room, but released the same day.

I became infuriated. Otty should have been immediately hospitalized. IMMEDIATELY. This woman fell through so many cracks it's beyond ridiculous! I am in tears because she tried to get help. She tried. What is wrong with all of these professionals that they allowed her to walk out of those hospital doors?!

The more that comes out about her medical history in dealing with this.. the more I'm convinced that there needs to be a lot more education about postpartum mood disorders. Not only for patients and family members, but for the medical community as well.

 

[Kat]

I don't think she is going to rebound into a healthy state of mind. She will never have a healthy state of mind. The mental illness she is said to have been diagnosed with isn't curable. It never ever goes away. But if the patient is very lucky, and depending on the severity they can sometimes respond well to meds.

Please, I am again asking very gently but in a more firm way if you are not educated about Schizophrenia and it's subtypes, this case presents the opportunity to learn about what it is and how it is treated (the fact that it is a life long progressive disease and can't always be treated).

It's a time for us (myself included) to educate ourselves about PPP. I intend to do some reference work for myself in the next day or two. (This woman may not have even had that but it's info to carry forward to other cases)

I do respect the right of everyone here to post informed opinions. Even when they are completely opposite of my own.

I want to clarify my stance on this crime. If this woman is found to be competent to stand trial ~ then I think she should receive the maximum sentence allowed and that the sentence should be served out in a prison that would give her mental health treatments and the drugs she needs for her illness. I ,in no way think, of her as "that poor woman" instead I think we should look at this crime and begin to seek ways to pass legislation that not only protects the general public from extremely mentally ill persons but is conducive to that patient's survival and facilitates their treatments.

Mandated sterilization, and euthanization are passionate yet inapplicable arguments and against the laws of our land rendering them moot points.

JMHO as always.

 

[Fairy1]

We read about parents committing horrific crimes against their children here every day. The majority of these parents are NOT mentally ill, yet are obviously not fit to be parents.

I think we would all agree that if there were some realistic way to prevent horrible people from having children who will suffer at their hands, we'd be all for it. That being said, who is going to decide who is fit and who isn't and by what criteria? Should we prevent anyone whose IQ is below a certain level from having children? How about people with physical disabilities or chronic illnesses? And how will this prevention be carried out? Will there be teams of enforcers kidnapping such people under the cover of darkness and dragging them somewhere for a sterilization procedure? Good Lord - does this not sound like a horror movie? What if one of your own children was deemed unfit?

I recently read a story somewhere about a US state that was sterilizing women they considered "too dimwitted" to reproduce. I'm sorry I can't remember where I read it - but I will try to find it. It chilled me to the bone and embarrassed me as it really wasn't that long ago. It was barbaric and heartbreaking. I sure would like to think we, as a society, have moved beyond that.

I found the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Buck

 

[OrdinaryLife]

IMVHO, this is one of those heartache tragic cases. Obviously, one that brings out a level of thought and emotion we do not normally encounter. We see/read of pure selfish evil everyday. However, when mental illness comes into play, it is so very hard to understand the why's of the mind, it's function, and that it's out of control for the person who "owns" it. I know of not one person, who I have encountered, that wants this illness and in the next breathe of that very statement, goes into some bizarre rant of people and what they demand from them. You have to experience, just once, to understand the torment that live within them and standing near them and hearing such words....

I know this was a ramble of a post and to be honest, I could share several more stories to help support my opinion regarding mental illness. However, I won't. Have a good night everyone. Blessings to all that have been through this. Personally, through extended family/dear friends, and close family beloveds. I'll return when there's more news regarding this case.

OL

 

[southcitymom]

We read about parents committing horrific crimes against their children here every day. The majority of these parents are NOT mentally ill, yet are obviously not fit to be parents.

I think we would all agree that if there were some realistic way to prevent horrible people from having children who will suffer at their hands, we'd be all for it. That being said, who is going to decide who is fit and who isn't and by what criteria? Should we prevent anyone whose IQ is below a certain level from having children? How about people with physical disabilities or chronic illnesses? And how will this prevention be carried out? Will there be teams of enforcers kidnapping such people under the cover of darkness and dragging them somewhere for a sterilization procedure? Good Lord - does this not sound like a horror movie? What if one of your own children was deemed unfit?

I recently read a story somewhere about a US state that was sterilizing women they considered "too dimwitted" to reproduce. I'm sorry I can't remember where I read it - but I will try to find it. It chilled me to the bone and embarrassed me as it really wasn't that long ago. It was barbaric and heartbreaking. I sure would like to think we, as a society, have moved beyond that.

I found the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Buck

Fairy,

I couldn't agree more with everything you just posted on this issue. Government has no control over a person's reproductive choices, and that is as it should be because the alternatives are too gruesome to genuinely consider.

 

[Fairy1]

Fairy,

I couldn't agree more with everything you just posted on this issue. Government has no control over a person's reproductive choices, and that is as it should be because the alternatives are too gruesome to genuinely consider.

So true SCM. It would certainly be a slippery slope if we even attempted to control reproduction in the U.S.

China is a good example - where they're allowed to have only one child and what a tragic disappointment it sometimes is if that child is a girl and not a boy. We will probably never hear about it - but I shudder to think what goes on there as a result of that mandate!

The Carrie Buck story just scared the bejesus out of me and broke my heart!

 

[Native New Yorker]

I never stated that the government should be involved in sterilization of anyone! In my opinion, it should be a private decision, made by family, advised by a doctor, or doctors. That is the way it used to be handled, not by the government. I stand by my opinion that not everyone should have children.

 

[southcitymom]

So true SCM. It would certainly be a slippery slope if we even attempted to control reproduction in the U.S.

China is a good example - where they're allowed to have only one child and what a tragic disappointment it sometimes is if that child is a girl and not a boy. We will probably never hear about it - but I shudder to think what goes on there as a result of that mandate!

The Carrie Buck story just scared the bejesus out of me and broke my heart!

I can tell you a little bit about what goes on in China because my goddaughter is adopted from there and the subject is near and dear to my heart. She is an amazing, beautiful, 9-year-old - such a bright, bright light. Fortunately, whoever her parents were, left her in a vegetable stand by a police station near the "best" orphanage in the provence when she was a few days old.

You wouldn't believe how many newborn baby girls are left all over the place. They die in the streets and the forests and the water and sometimes even in vegetable stands by police stations near orphanages.

The Carrie Buck story is sad as can be.

 

[CHICANA]

I never stated that the government should be involved in sterilization of anyone! In my opinion, it should be a private decision, made by family, advised by a doctor, or doctors. That is the way it used to be handled, not by the government. I stand by my opinion that not everyone should have children.

According to the Carrie Buck Case, it had to be court ordered so as not to violate due process rights.
I would think it would have to be an individual's decision, not family or a doctor's unless it's a life threatening emergency.

 

[Fairy1]

I can tell you a little bit about what goes on in China because my goddaughter is adopted from there and the subject is near and dear to my heart. She is an amazing, beautiful, 9-year-old - such a bright, bright light. Fortunately, whoever her parents were, left her in a vegetable stand by a police station near the "best" orphanage in the provence when she was a few days old.

You wouldn't believe how many newborn baby girls are left all over the place. They die in the streets and the forests and the water and sometimes even in vegetable stands by police stations near orphanages.

The Carrie Buck story is sad as can be.

Oh dear. That's exactly what I suspected. Thank goodness your little goddaughter found a family that would love and cherish her!

Listening to the 911 call that Otty's sister made and knowing what those people witnessed that day, my heart truly goes out to them - all of them. The very fact that she was there with them tells me that they were trying very hard to help her. Even knowing she wasn't mentally well, they couldn't possibly have anticipated what she was capable of and they will have to live with it for the rest of their days.

HOWEVER, the hospital that let her go on July 20, after having diagnosed her as having a "severe mental breakdown" and KNOWING she had a newborn at home yet discharged her the same day......I would sue them to the last dime! Someone earlier mentioned her "falling through the cracks." There was NO REASON for her to have fallen through the cracks! She was in the hospital, seeking assistance, and they let her go FGS. What more can a mentally ill person do?

 

[kgeaux]

I don't think she is going to rebound into a healthy state of mind. She will never have a healthy state of mind. The mental illness she is said to have been diagnosed with isn't curable. It never ever goes away. But if the patient is very lucky, and depending on the severity they can sometimes respond well to meds.

Please, I am again asking very gently but in a more firm way if you are not educated about Schizophrenia and it's subtypes, this case presents the opportunity to learn about what it is and how it is treated (the fact that it is a life long progressive disease and can't always be treated).

It's a time for us (myself included) to educate ourselves about PPP. I intend to do some reference work for myself in the next day or two. (This woman may not have even had that but it's info to carry forward to other cases)

I do respect the right of everyone here to post informed opinions. Even when they are completely opposite of my own.

I want to clarify my stance on this crime. If this woman is found to be competent to stand trial ~ then I think she should receive the maximum sentence allowed and that the sentence should be served out in a prison that would give her mental health treatments and the drugs she needs for her illness. I ,in no way think, of her as "that poor woman" instead I think we should look at this crime and begin to seek ways to pass legislation that not only protects the general public from extremely mentally ill persons but is conducive to that patient's survival and facilitates their treatments.

Mandated sterilization, and euthanization are passionate yet inapplicable arguments and against the laws of our land rendering them moot points.

JMHO as always.

Good post, Kat. I do hope everyone will take the time to educate themselves on the topic of schizophrenia and postpartum psychosis. To be able to make good decisions and form wise opinions, we must educate ourselves.......and that goes for every topic, doesn't it?

I have to say that when I hear Otty's sister describe how Otty brought the baby to her repeatedly, telling her she was hearing voices, I DO think "that poor woman." I think she tried so hard to protect her son; she knew she couldn't be with him in that condition.

I never stated that the government should be involved in sterilization of anyone! In my opinion, it should be a private decision, made by family, advised by a doctor, or doctors. That is the way it used to be handled, not by the government. I stand by my opinion that not everyone should have children.

OK, let's use my nephew as an example. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was in his mid-teens. He was hospitalized and although it took a LOT of trial and error, he has regained control of his life through medication.

If his parents had wanted him sterilized as a mid-teenager, and assuming any doctor would perform such an operation on a 17 year old, he would have gone through treatment, regained his sanity, and been denied his two beautiful daughters.

What if he didn't want the operation? Should his parents or doctor be able to force him to undergo sterilization? At age 17 he could have been arrested and tried as an adult, had he committed a crime. If 17 is old enough to be treated as an adult on that level, should we take his wishes into consideration, even if he is sick at the moment?

I agree with you that not everyone should have children. I wish to goodness that someone had responded to this woman and kept her son away from her and safe until she was stable enough to see him. But should parents or doctors be able to force an adult to be sterilized? I think this is a very slippery slope. Should people with low IQ's be allowed to have children? What about people with congenital disabilities that "MIGHT" be passed on? What about people who suffer from bi-polar? Or major depressive disorder? How about uneducated people who won't be able to provide their children with every luxury? Force them all to be sterilized?

 

[Fairy1]

According to the Carrie Buck Case, it had to be court ordered so as not to violate due process rights.
I would think it would have to be an individual's decision, not family or a doctor's unless it's a life threatening emergency.

IMO, a court order under these circumstances does violate due process - not to mention civil rights!

The problem with it being left to the individual - if mentally ill - is that they are not usually capable of making a sound decision. In a lucid moment, they may believe they can be a good parent. But when it comes down to really doing it, it's challenging even for the healthiest of people!

And doctors? I had a heart condition for many years beginning at the age of 12. When I was 14, my cardiologist gave an order to the hospital ER staff that was the exact opposite of what they should have done. Found out years later that my cardiologist was a raging alcoholic and he eventually lost his license to practice!

 

[reb]

Interesting how so many people here take every opinion SO personally, and spend so much energy being so 'hurt' that they can't discuss things on a rational level and understand that different people have the right to different opinions (something ALSO guaranteed by the Constitution by the way)... Yes I have 'experience' with mental illness and I never said 'no one should ever have compassion'... I said compassion should have its LIMITS. Eating your baby's brain... yeah, that's pretty much the limit. It's beyond comprehension.

<and it is extremely hurtful to come here and read the posts you make that ALL people with mental illness need to be put to death, rather then get treatment, because they are a "waste" of space, or resources.>

speaking for DotsEyes-- when exactly did she say 'ALL mentally ill people need to be put to death"....? i missed that part...

and as for the slippery slope (in terms of sterilization, etc..)-- it never ceases to amaze me that no one ever seems to consider the slippery slope has ALREADY HAPPENED-- but in the OTHER direction. Does that ever occur to anyone?

 

[Fairy1]

Interesting how so many people here take every opinion SO personally, and spend so much energy being so 'hurt' that they can't discuss things on a rational level and understand that different people have the right to different opinions (something ALSO guaranteed by the Constitution by the way)... Yes I have 'experience' with mental illness and I never said 'no one should ever have compassion'... I said compassion should have its LIMITS. Eating your baby's brain... yeah, that's pretty much the limit. It's beyond comprehension.

<and it is extremely hurtful to come here and read the posts you make that ALL people with mental illness need to be put to death, rather then get treatment, because they are a "waste" of space, or resources.>

speaking for DotsEyes-- when exactly did she say 'ALL mentally ill people need to be put to death"....? i missed that part...

and as for the slippery slope (in terms of sterilization, etc..)-- it never ceases to amaze me that no one ever seems to consider the slippery slope has ALREADY HAPPENED-- but in the OTHER direction. Does that ever occur to anyone?

It is beyond comprehension that a SANE person could eat her own child. That's exactly why most posting here do not believe this woman is even remotely sane and is, thereby, not responsible for her own actions.

I think many here are taking this case "personally" because they have had their own experiences with mentally ill family members or friends. You say you have as well, yet your posts totally and completely lack compassion and empathy.

And no, the slippery slope hasn't happened - not even close! Cases like this are few and far between, thank God! There are far more drug addicted, lazy, disinterested parents than there are mentally ill parents. Whatever shall we do with them? Shall we kill them as well?

Besides putting this particular woman to death, what, exactly, do you propose as a solution?

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I think we can lay the debate to rest, as no one is going to change anyone's mind, and arguing with some people only gives them amusement at your expense.

Just let it pass over - use the alert button if you find things get out of hand, and if people are really getting on your nerves, you have the option of the "ignore" function.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

Besides putting this particular woman to death, what, exactly, do you propose as a solution?

~ Respectfully snipped ~

This question defines why cases like this are so emotionally charged. Nothing exhibits a divide in a discussion like a mother, who is likely extremely mentally ill, harming her child in the most brutal of ways. We will always have one side who has the utmost compassion for the mom and baby. We will also always have the other side, who feels regardless of mental illness this woman should be punished by death. If I'm understanding that side correctly, there is no other solution.

We have come a long way in regards to mental health. We have such a long way to go still. The proof in this case for me is that Otty walked out of a hospital on July 20th.

 

[s_finch]

Am I the only one that doesn't care if the mother is nuts or depressed? She ate her baby's brains, and toes, people. I agree with the baby's father - execute her. She can't be fixed. We don't have to keep murderers alive just because they are nuts. She knew it was wrong, that is why she was crying "I killed my baby!" when LE arrived.

Don't blame the father or the other members of the family. They are ill equipped to understand her particular mental issue. They aren't responsible for her actions.

"Hearing voices" - that is so lame. Why don't these voices ever say "love your baby and be gentle with him"?

I know this case is heart rending. It's hard to read about, hard to fathom, and unbelievably sad. I pray that the baby died quickly and didn't suffer.

I don't know if you're the only one that feels as you do, but "Hearing voices" isn't lame. Often "Hearing voices" is a symptom of Schizophrenia which is a real disorder. "Hearing voices" also often happens during psychosis. Mental illness is as real as cancer and just like cancer, mental illness comes in varying degrees of severity. Some cases are mild others are incurable.

Your statement that she "knew it was wrong" because she was "crying I killed my baby" suggests to me that you might not understand the definition of insanity. Insane (psychotic) people may very well tell you what they did and may or may not exhibit some agitation but they don't attempt to hide, lie, conceal, escape or in anyway elude LE or deny their actions. Why? Because they DON'T realize what they did was wrong and they don't realize there will be consequences for their actions....hence they don't lie about it. They do not realize the severity of what they have done.

Whether or not she can "be fixed" has nothing to do with whether or not she should be executed. First, in the US there is "innocent until proven guilty", second is the issue of "competency". And while I am a supporter of the death penalty I do not support it for those who are truly psychotic or too retarded to understand what they have done.

 

[s_finch]

What I said was, I don't care what her mental issues are. No one gets a free pass to chop off a baby's head and eat it's brains and toes. There is no reason to spare her life, she is worthless and a waste of resources to keep her penned up for the next 50 years until she dies.

I am sick of excuses. The very act of butchering a baby and eating him for breakfast is proof that the woman is mentally ill. So what? She gets a pass?

F that. Put her down and out permanently.

A "free pass" would mean that if she is found quilty then she wouldn't be removed from society but would continue to live freely. I am quite sure (although I could be wrong) that if she is found guilty that she won't be living freely and out and about in society. She will most probably be put in a psych ward and given enough meds to bring her out of psychosis (if possible) and then she will live with the realization for what she has done for the rest of her life. Like SCM said, death really seems like the easier punishment rather than a lifetime of rememberance but in no way does "free pass" fit the description of what this woman will life through.

It saddens me that you have no compassion for the severely mentally ill. Perhaps you suffered once at the hands of a mentally ill person and are transferring your rage, if so I am sorry for your pain.

 

[PolyGraph]

You'd be amazed how much people don't see when a woman is suffering from postpartum illness. Considering the age of the baby, I'm going to take a guess this mother suffered from postpartum psychosis. Now, before you say it's a bs illness let me tell you, it's very real. It's unfortunate this mother didn't get the help she needed.

The people living in the home may have believed the mother only suffered from baby blues. It can look like that to someone looking from the outside in. Until science figures out a way to read people's minds there's just no way to know the severity of an individual's postpartum illness. Usually not until it's too late.

Having been a sufferer of PPP, I just cannot condemn this woman. I am saddened for both her and her baby. The help is there.. we have to let women know it's okay to tell someone. Even the scariest things you may think or hear, you have to tell someone.. anyone! For you and your baby.

Either that or the psychotropic meds made her do it, how many times have we heard of cases where the mom kills the child/children because shes already on a wild assortment of drugs doctor prescribed to her? I am willing to bet this was one that was already on the drugs, the hearing voices kind of clued me into that.