TX - Scott Buchholtz-Sanchez, 3 wks, decapitated, San Antonio, July 2009 *Insanity*

[CHICANA]

Either that or the psychotropic meds made her do it, how many times have we heard of cases where the mom kills the child/children because shes already on a wild assortment of drugs doctor prescribed to her? I am willing to bet this was one that was already on the drugs, the hearing voices kind of clued me into that.

She was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.

 

[s_finch]

dotseyes-- I agree with you. I mean, where do we draw the line, when it comes to keeping people alive?? How hideously inhuman does an action have to be before we say,, OK, the line is crossed-- we need to remove them from civilized society, for good?
In any other society she would have been quickly killed (or tortured for 'possession'- which would have been pointless and even more cruel). What is it about our society that insists on keeping those like her alive and 'rehabilitating' them...??? For what.....???? For the good of society, herself, and for god's sake-- the human gene pool-- she needs to be declared crimincally insane and euthanized (not executed). Yes, OK we get it- she is mentally ill-- (and if it's because of drugs then it is partly her own fault!) -but no, she should not live. And no, this doesn't mean we should put to death everyone who has depression and whatnot-- so please don't drag all that stuff out again people.

If you are an American you should realize it is because our society is JUST.

While many people throughout history have committed horrible acts, no human being is a "waste". Your pov reminds me of the quote from Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol " when he refers to the poor and afflicted and says "If they would rather die, they should do it and decrease the surplus population" I guess I feel strongly on this issue because I once thought that the mentally handicapped were basically a "surplus population" and were a waste but then God gave me a beautiful but mentally handicapped son and I had to face my demons and realize every life is a gift from God and begins beautifully.

 

[Fairy1]

I think we can lay the debate to rest, as no one is going to change anyone's mind, and arguing with some people only gives them amusement at your expense.

Just let it pass over - use the alert button if you find things get out of hand, and if people are really getting on your nerves, you have the option of the "ignore" function.

Totally understand where you're coming from WaD, but I don't feel it's gotten out of hand and I do, based on the comments on this case, feel a healthy debate is important. It is definitely an emotional case and issue.

I would consider people with serious mental health illnesses "high risk" in terms of parenting. I'm not saying it cannot be done successfully, but the odds are probably not good. That being said, what humane measures should be taken to prevent it, without compromising civil rights?

For all we know, Otty's doctors may very well have advised her not to have children. If that's the case, she didn't listen, which seems to be the norm for mental patients. But, they couldn't really stop her. Should they have been able to?

IMO, the biggest mistake made in all of this was the hospital letting her go home on 7/20 after having diagnosed her as having a severe mental breakdown THE SAME DAY and knowing she had a newborn at home. How much differently this could have turned out if things had been handled properly that day. Makes my heart hurt!

 

[Fairy1]

She was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.

And schizophrenia. Neither should be taken lightly...

 

[s_finch]

<It isn't something people choose to do. It could happen to any one of us.>

#1)-- If it happened to her because of drugs- then it IS partly her fault, and it may not 'happen to any of us' because not all of us are stupid or self-destructive enough to get involved with illegal drugs.

#2) Yes, but hello-- what we are talking about here is DECAPITATING SOMEONE AND EATING THEIR BRAINS. If I personally 'slid down into' that sort of mental state and did such a thing, I would ABSOLUTELY expect (and, would probably WANT) society to put me out of my misery. Medication is not a magical cure-all. Sorry,, there is no place in the human race for this sort of behavior. Some of us believe there are lines that should not be crossed,, and their should be limits to sympathy.

And I would hazard to guess that you'd be willing to serve on that panel who decides which lines should not be crossed and where the limit to sympathy should lie? You do realize that you can't legislate human emotion and that sympathy IS a human emotion.

 

[s_finch]

I love the constitution. It guarantees that ALL citizens are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

We can't fix everything. Sometimes bad things happen and there's nothing we can do about it.

Amen and Amen!

 

[kgeaux]

Interesting how so many people here take every opinion SO personally, and spend so much energy being so 'hurt' that they can't discuss things on a rational level and understand that different people have the right to different opinions (something ALSO guaranteed by the Constitution by the way)... Yes I have 'experience' with mental illness and I never said 'no one should ever have compassion'... I said compassion should have its LIMITS. Eating your baby's brain... yeah, that's pretty much the limit. It's beyond comprehension.

<and it is extremely hurtful to come here and read the posts you make that ALL people with mental illness need to be put to death, rather then get treatment, because they are a "waste" of space, or resources.>

speaking for DotsEyes-- when exactly did she say 'ALL mentally ill people need to be put to death"....? i missed that part...

and as for the slippery slope (in terms of sterilization, etc..)-- it never ceases to amaze me that no one ever seems to consider the slippery slope has ALREADY HAPPENED-- but in the OTHER direction. Does that ever occur to anyone?

Oh, you are joking! OF COURSE people who have people they love who suffer from severe mental illness will take your posts personally! And are we rational? Are you? Have you answered even one of the questions that we've asked to encourage you to think about this on a personal level? What WOULD you do with my little nieces? What WOULD you do with Kat? Would your compassion extend to them? If they were your sisters, would you want them to die for something they did not have the capacity to understand? Whether you want to admit it or not, this is an intensely personal topic for those of us who love mentally ill relatives/friends.

The slippery slope on sterilization happened some time ago. Thank my God, it was determined to be unconstitutional. It is NOT LEGAL to sterilize people in the USA because of their mental status or IQ or social standing or education. Thank God.

I know this case is heart rending. It's hard to read about, hard to fathom, and unbelievably sad. I pray that the baby died quickly and didn't suffer.

I don't know if you're the only one that feels as you do, but "Hearing voices" isn't lame. Often "Hearing voices" is a symptom of Schizophrenia which is a real disorder. "Hearing voices" also often happens during psychosis. Mental illness is as real as cancer and just like cancer, mental illness comes in varying degrees of severity. Some cases are mild others are incurable.

Your statement that she "knew it was wrong" because she was "crying I killed my baby" suggests to me that you might not understand the definition of insanity. Insane (psychotic) people may very well tell you what they did and may or may not exhibit some agitation but they don't attempt to hide, lie, conceal, escape or in anyway elude LE or deny their actions. Why? Because they DON'T realize what they did was wrong and they don't realize there will be consequences for their actions....hence they don't lie about it. They do not realize the severity of what they have done.

Whether or not she can "be fixed" has nothing to do with whether or not she should be executed. First, in the US there is "innocent until proven guilty", second is the issue of "competency". And while I am a supporter of the death penalty I do not support it for those who are truly psychotic or too retarded to understand what they have done.

Girl, I am loving your posts. (Also love all my little finches at my feeders!)

I agree with your comment on Otty's statement "I killed my baby!" I've listened to the tape, and Otty does not begin screaming that she killed her baby until her sister tells the 911 operator that the baby is dead. She is clearly confused, thinking her sister told her that she (the sister) had died, so couldn't watch Scotty anymore. (Kinda makes me wonder if the sis told her 'I'm dead tired' when she brought the baby back to Otty.) Whatever happened, it is clear that Otty doesn't understand "dead" like we do.

I also totally agree that the death penalty does not and should not depend upon the possibility of the person being fixed or not. Our justice system says that we do not execute those who cannot tell right from wrong, period. There are many countries that DO execute the mentally ill, and I'd bet a barrel of monkys that not one of us would wish to live in the culture of those cultures.

I think it is obvious that some people believe mental illness is "ugly" or "the fault of the sufferer" or "not worthy of compassion" and that really, really stresses to me that they really do not understand the nature of the beast. Mental illness is nothing that anyone would wish upon themselves, and by its very nature, those who suffer most profoundly from it don't even realize the degree to which they are suffering.

If you are an American you should realize it is because our society is JUST.

While many people throughout history have committed horrible acts, no human being is a "waste". Your pov reminds me of the quote from Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol " when he refers to the poor and afflicted and says "If they would rather die, they should do it and decrease the surplus population" I guess I feel strongly on this issue because I once thought that the mentally handicapped were basically a "surplus population" and were a waste but then God gave me a beautiful but mentally handicapped son and I had to face my demons and realize every life is a gift from God and begins beautifully.

God bless you, God bless your son. He is certainly not a waste!

And I would hazard to guess that you'd be willing to serve on that panel who decides which lines should not be crossed and where the limit to sympathy should lie? You do realize that you can't legislate human emotion and that sympathy IS a human emotion.

I sure wouldn't want to be on that panel. Especially since the criteria seems to be that the sicker they are, the more detached from reality, the more deserving of death.

God forbid.

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

Either that or the psychotropic meds made her do it, how many times have we heard of cases where the mom kills the child/children because shes already on a wild assortment of drugs doctor prescribed to her? I am willing to bet this was one that was already on the drugs, the hearing voices kind of clued me into that.

We've gone over this issue already. The father of little Scotty and her family stated that Otty wasn't taking her medications. Also, I was one of the rare cases of PPP. I can assure you, I was hearing voices and not on any medication at the time. It wasn't until I was medicated the voices and intrusive thoughts ceased. It was only in the postpartum period after my daughter that I had ever heard voices. I never heard them again after being successfully treated.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I can understand how schizophrenia or schizo-affective disorder relates to PPP, which I earlier called PPD in error, but I just don't see straight bipolar disorder as being one of the causes. Hearing voices is not a feature of bipolar disorder. I don't know who the authors,Sharma and Mazmanian are or what their credentials are, but pregnancy putting a twist on bipolar is laughable to me. The twists they refer to are purely schizo in nature. Had they described what they were calling bipolar as schizo-affective disorder, then I'd agree with them. I've read a number of books about bipolar disorder, some of them clinical texts.

Sorry, but respectfully, you are incorrect. Psychosis is indeed a feature of Bipolar disorder, it is a symptom that many with Bipolar suffer from... and pregnancy/childbirth can and often times does make Bipolar worse.

I don't know what "clinical texts" you are refering to, I cannnot imagine any clinical text would state such a thing. I'd love to see/read the information you are refering to .. would you please provide a link to these texts or names of the texts? TIA.


I have Bipolar disorder with Psychotic features that worsened with pregnancy/childbirth and I am here to tell you (and just in case, I'll add some links as well) it is very real and not even very rare.

http://bipolar.about.com/od/relateddisorders/a/postpartumpsych.htm

http://www.mcmanweb.com/bipolar2.html

http://organizedwisdom.com/Bipolar_Disorder_in_Women

http://organizedwisdom.com/Postpartum_Psychosis_Linked_to_Bipolar_Disorder#cite_note-about-1

http://www.sign.ac.uk/pdf/sign82.pdf

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?doi=10.1159/000128325

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...id=1&usestrictdates=yes&resourcetype=HWCIT&ct

 

[OneLostGrl]

Oh, you are joking! OF COURSE people who have people they love who suffer from severe mental illness will take your posts personally! And are we rational? Are you? Have you answered even one of the questions that we've asked to encourage you to think about this on a personal level? What WOULD you do with my little nieces? What WOULD you do with Kat? Would your compassion extend to them? If they were your sisters, would you want them to die for something they did not have the capacity to understand? Whether you want to admit it or not, this is an intensely personal topic for those of us who love mentally ill relatives/friends.

The slippery slope on sterilization happened some time ago. Thank my God, it was determined to be unconstitutional. It is NOT LEGAL to sterilize people in the USA because of their mental status or IQ or social standing or education. Thank God.



Girl, I am loving your posts. (Also love all my little finches at my feeders!)

I agree with your comment on Otty's statement "I killed my baby!" I've listened to the tape, and Otty does not begin screaming that she killed her baby until her sister tells the 911 operator that the baby is dead. She is clearly confused, thinking her sister told her that she (the sister) had died, so couldn't watch Scotty anymore. (Kinda makes me wonder if the sis told her 'I'm dead tired' when she brought the baby back to Otty.) Whatever happened, it is clear that Otty doesn't understand "dead" like we do.

I also totally agree that the death penalty does not and should not depend upon the possibility of the person being fixed or not. Our justice system says that we do not execute those who cannot tell right from wrong, period. There are many countries that DO execute the mentally ill, and I'd bet a barrel of monkys that not one of us would wish to live in the culture of those cultures.

I think it is obvious that some people believe mental illness is "ugly" or "the fault of the sufferer" or "not worthy of compassion" and that really, really stresses to me that they really do not understand the nature of the beast. Mental illness is nothing that anyone would wish upon themselves, and by its very nature, those who suffer most profoundly from it don't even realize the degree to which they are suffering.



God bless you, God bless your son. He is certainly not a waste!



I sure wouldn't want to be on that panel. Especially since the criteria seems to be that the sicker they are, the more detached from reality, the more deserving of death.

God forbid.

:blowkiss:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Totally understand where you're coming from WaD, but I don't feel it's gotten out of hand and I do, based on the comments on this case, feel a healthy debate is important. It is definitely an emotional case and issue.

I would consider people with serious mental health illnesses "high risk" in terms of parenting. I'm not saying it cannot be done successfully, but the odds are probably not good. That being said, what humane measures should be taken to prevent it, without compromising civil rights?

For all we know, Otty's doctors may very well have advised her not to have children. If that's the case, she didn't listen, which seems to be the norm for mental patients. But, they couldn't really stop her. Should they have been able to?

IMO, the biggest mistake made in all of this was the hospital letting her go home on 7/20 after having diagnosed her as having a severe mental breakdown THE SAME DAY and knowing she had a newborn at home. How much differently this could have turned out if things had been handled properly that day. Makes my heart hurt!

Bold is mine-

Not listening to the doctor is hardly "the norm for mental patients".

 

[southcitymom]

Sorry, but respectfully, you are incorrect. Psychosis is indeed a feature of Bipolar disorder, it is a symptom that many with Bipolar suffer from... and pregnancy/childbirth can and often times does make Bipolar worse.

I don't know what "clinical texts" you are refering to, I cannnot imagine any clinical text would state such a thing. I'd love to see/read the information you are refering to .. would you please provide a link to these texts or names of the texts? TIA.


I have Bipolar disorder with Psychotic features that worsened with pregnancy/childbirth and I am here to tell you (and just in case, I'll add some links as well) it is very real and not even very rare.

http://bipolar.about.com/od/relateddisorders/a/postpartumpsych.htm

http://www.mcmanweb.com/bipolar2.html

http://organizedwisdom.com/Bipolar_Disorder_in_Women

http://organizedwisdom.com/Postpartum_Psychosis_Linked_to_Bipolar_Disorder#cite_note-about-1

http://www.sign.ac.uk/pdf/sign82.pdf

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?doi=10.1159/000128325

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...id=1&usestrictdates=yes&resourcetype=HWCIT&ct

Good to see you, friend - I wondered if you'd stumble into this thread! Thanks for adding your two cents and much love to you! :blowkiss:

 

[lizzybeth]

Same here OneLostGirl.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Same here OneLostGirl.

:hug:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Good to see you, friend - I wondered if you'd stumble into this thread! Thanks for adding your two cents and much love to you! :blowkiss:

It's always a pleasure, SCM :blowkiss:

 

[OneLostGrl]

I don't care if she spends the rest of her life in prison or in a mental institution.

She spent 2 hours or so, cutting her little boy with a knife, then ate parts of his body. No sane person would inflict such torture on their baby, let alone eat their body parts.

I hope this woman gets help, but this is one case IMO, where I feel it may be unlikely that she can be mainstreamed into society again.

I believe anyone who kills, mentally ill or not has lost their right to live amoungst society. If I killed my child I sure hope I'd be held responsible for my actions, regardless of my Bipolar. Psychosis fades and we are left with the knowledge of our actions, there is no way I could live with myself.. jail would be the least of my worries.

 

[OneLostGrl]

There was something mentioned in one of the linked articles about the mother being on drugs ( according to a family member), but I am sure that will come out if true.
However........

I agree that the mother should have been under observation, but what I really do not understand is WHY it is ok for the mentally ill to have children???( and I know there are wonderful exceptions, and cases where medication works wonders, so please do not bash me)
I have a distant cousin who had mental problems, and she had a child with another mental patient....their son ended up in foster care, and it was very, very sad....I am not advocating a Nazi type of "sterilization of the unfit", but where is our common sense?
There are so many unwanted and abused children, why add mental illness into the mix, and by that I mean a handicap which makes it harder to parent?

I also have a friend who had a history of breakdowns, and yet went ahead and had four children. She is now dxed as Bipolar, and her children are complete wrecks. Basically, they have never had a mother! She is in and out of mental hospitals, and it is just heart breaking. And so selfish of her to have ignored her own history.

huh.. interesting take on things. :banghead:

 

[Fairy1]

Bold is mine-

Not listening to the doctor is hardly "the norm for mental patients".

I was referring primarily to the resistance of staying on their meds -as in this case and many others that have been recounted here.

I had a friend years ago whose brother was schizophrenic with violent tendancies. He was perfectly fine when taking his medications, but refused to stay on them. He had a loving family that was willing to take him in, but they were, rightfully, afraid of him when he wasn't medicated. As a result, they have been in an unending cycle for years where he is healthy and productive in a safe environment while on meds, stops taking them, goes missing, winds up homeless and then resurfaces later, only to begin it all again.

 

[daisy7]

There are so many unwanted and abused children, why add mental illness into the mix, and by that I mean a handicap which makes it harder to parent?

Respectfully, snipped and bolded by me. Are you referring to any "handicap" (I personally prefer the term disability) such as physical, visual, hearing, etc. that makes it harder to parent or only mental illness?

And, how would a person draw the line on which people who have mental illness should have children? What about people who are depressed, have anxiety, have an eating disorder (which are all mental illnesses) - should they not be "allowed" to have children. What about people that are mildly developmentally delayed, such as with autism or Down's syndrome?

 

[OneLostGrl]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6552362.html

"In the days before Otty Sanchez killed her 4-week-old son and mutilated his body, there were at least two major incidents where her behavior triggered a crisis response by doctors and police.

Yet, in each case, Sanchez slipped through the cracks and returned to her baby Scott W. Buchholz Sanchez at a near North Side home, where police said she killed the infant Sunday morning while her mother, sister, and two other young children apparently slept."

Thanks for the link-

Slipped through the cracks? I see it more as the hospital that released her was negligent beyond words. if I was the babies father, I'd be getting a lawyer... the "professionals" who came in contact with this woman days before the murder allowed this to happen IMO.