TX - Scott Buchholtz-Sanchez, 3 wks, decapitated, San Antonio, July 2009 *Insanity*

[OneLostGrl]

I was referring primarily to the resistance of staying on their meds -as in this case and many others that have been recounted here.

I had a friend years ago whose brother was schizophrenic with violent tendancies. He was perfectly fine when taking his medications, but refused to stay on them. He had a loving family that was willing to take him in, but they were, rightfully, afraid of him when he wasn't medicated. As a result, they have been in an unending cycle for years where he is healthy and productive in a safe environment while on meds, stops taking them, goes missing, winds up homeless and then resurfaces later, only to begin it all again.

I get what you meant, and I'm saying it is hardly the "norm". Yes, there are cases but it isn't the norm for us "mental patients". Many, most, do not want to stay sick and do the work it takes to stay sane every day for the rest of their lives. Most "mental patients" have jobs, spouses, children and live successfully without ever having been a blip on anyones radar. Those with a mental illness are no more at risk of being violent than "normal people. We are more a danger to ourselves than to anyone else.

As for why people go off their meds.. there are all kinds of reasons..

Try living on Anti-psychotics.. on medication that takes away everything you once felt, were once able to accomplish, that makes you sleep all the time or not at all, unable to drive a car, or take care of your children. Take medication that messes with your cognitive processing, your memory, your ability to reason.. that slows down your central nervous system and known for it's addictive qualities (Which is really not very good or safe, as those with mental illness have a higher than normal rate of addiction issues).

Take medication- for the rest of your life that leaves you unable to perform sexually, can cause diabetes, liver and pancreas problems, weight gain, seizures, anxiety, agitation, suicidal ideations, even psychosis. Live with the other health issues you have that you cannot take medication for because they don't mix with whatever psychotropic medication you may be taking. Take a medication that makes you piss the bed or see double or shake and drool.. and stay on it, try to deal with each symptom for the rest of your life. Then perhaps you could understand why some choose to discontinue their medication.

 

[debbie0604]

You'd be amazed how much people don't see when a woman is suffering from postpartum illness. Considering the age of the baby, I'm going to take a guess this mother suffered from postpartum psychosis. Now, before you say it's a bs illness let me tell you, it's very real. It's unfortunate this mother didn't get the help she needed.

The people living in the home may have believed the mother only suffered from baby blues. It can look like that to someone looking from the outside in. Until science figures out a way to read people's minds there's just no way to know the severity of an individual's postpartum illness. Usually not until it's too late.

Having been a sufferer of PPP, I just cannot condemn this woman. I am saddened for both her and her baby. The help is there.. we have to let women know it's okay to tell someone. Even the scariest things you may think or hear, you have to tell someone.. anyone! For you and your baby.

I would also guess that in addition to PPP, she also may be suffering from schizophrenia as well. JMO That is so sad. I wish someone had noticed that she was having problems and had stepped in. It is so heartbreaking.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I wrote about my relative, so yes, it has touched my life. The father of my children is a recovering addict/alcoholic ( 25 years sober) and also very narcissistic....
What I am talking about are women who should not have children. If they can barely cope with life as it is, why bring kids into it??? There are certainly enough people on this planet. I think that the severely mentally ill ( ones who were at one time institutionalized) should NOT have kids. That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it....

First of all, there is a huge difference between a addict who happens to be a narcissist and a person with a valid and diagnosable mental illness. HUGE! Narcissism is is developed over a lifetime, it has much more to do with a persons character and personality, there are no drugs approved to treat it. It is present in every encounter, in every action, it is always there. A narcissistic parent can be very damaging to children. IMO, having a child with a narcissist is a choice... certainly, having more than one child with a narcissist is.

For you to proclaim I (and others like me) should not have the right to have children because I have been institutionalized is not only ignorant and insulting, it's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black but different because you are not mentally ill, your choices concerning having children were made while sane. IMO.

But I'd never think to come on here and imply you should be "fixed" because you chose a narcissistic addict to father your children. I have no place to criticize.. I am a mentally ill addict who was raised by a mentally ill addict (Though I never knew him, my bio dad was an addict too and quite narcissistic) who's way of living has always been, by definition, narcissistic. Though she caused some damage, she got clean for us, she never beat us or abandoned us and I love her regardless. I am who I am because of her and though my life was not always easy because of her personal demons, I am thankful for the impact she has had on my life.

We can all make choices that others believe are unwise, or unhealthy for our children, mentally ill or not. It doesn't mean they know what they are talking about or that they are right.

My son was born prior to my diagnosis (fyi, he is 15 and alive and well..by far a better kid than I was at his age) when I was finally diagnosed with Bipolar I did choose to have my tubes tied (and to be SURE there would be no more children in our future, my hubby got "fixed" too) but I hardly expect everyone to make that same choice. A DX doesn't determine whether a person can be a good parent or not.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I would also guess that in addition to PPP, she also may be suffering from schizophrenia as well. JMO That is so sad. I wish someone had noticed that she was having problems and had stepped in. It is so heartbreaking.

But people did notice and chose to ignore, according to the articles linked. The article also states she was diagnosed with schizophrenia a year prior. It's a tragedy that nobody helped this woman.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6552362.html

 

[OneLostGrl]

Either that or the psychotropic meds made her do it, how many times have we heard of cases where the mom kills the child/children because shes already on a wild assortment of drugs doctor prescribed to her? I am willing to bet this was one that was already on the drugs, the hearing voices kind of clued me into that.

Bold is mine-

Uumm, almost never!

 

[reb]

also what i want to know is why the sister gets off scot-free? she's the one who kept handing the baby back the woman, who had been going off the deep end since the night before, and hearing voices. why would anyone in their right mind do something like that.. instead of protecting the defenseless child? isn't she partly negligent here?

 

[southcitymom]

also what i want to know is why the sister gets off scot-free? she's the one who kept handing the baby back the woman, who had been going off the deep end since the night before, and hearing voices. why would anyone in their right mind do something like that.. instead of protecting the defenseless child? isn't she partly negligent here?

Some people sure think so, reb! And it seems that several opportunities to get this woman help and distance from the child were missed by both non-professional family members as well as medical doctors and members of the psych community.

One of the articles that has been posted (can't recall where on this thread) says that a few days prior to this incident, doctors saw the woman and determined she was having a full blown psychotic break and ordered her hospitalized. She was transfered to the hospital and then, for reasons not fully outlines, determined to be well enough to be discharged.

 

[SewingDeb]

I believe one article says she signed herself out.

 

[Native New Yorker]

Respectfully, snipped and bolded by me. Are you referring to any "handicap" (I personally prefer the term disability) such as physical, visual, hearing, etc. that makes it harder to parent or only mental illness?

And, how would a person draw the line on which people who have mental illness should have children? What about people who are depressed, have anxiety, have an eating disorder (which are all mental illnesses) - should they not be "allowed" to have children. What about people that are mildly developmentally delayed, such as with autism or Down's syndrome?

I meant severe mental illness, recurring, that which has not responded to treatment.

 

[Native New Yorker]

huh.. interesting take on things. :banghead:

Not interesting, per se, just my personal experience with family and friends with mental illness.
Clearly, it has no relevance to you, but no need for sarcastic icons.

 

[Native New Yorker]

First of all, there is a huge difference between a addict who happens to be a narcissist and a person with a valid and diagnosable mental illness. HUGE! Narcissism is is developed over a lifetime, it has much more to do with a persons character and personality, there are no drugs approved to treat it. It is present in every encounter, in every action, it is always there. A narcissistic parent can be very damaging to children. IMO, having a child with a narcissist is a choice... certainly, having more than one child with a narcissist is.

For you to proclaim I (and others like me) should not have the right to have children because I have been institutionalized is not only ignorant and insulting, it's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black but different because you are not mentally ill, your choices concerning having children were made while sane. IMO.

But I'd never think to come on here and imply you should be "fixed" because you chose a narcissistic addict to father your children. I have no place to criticize..

Well, gee, isn't that nice...when I met my ex, I knew nothing about alcoholism, narcissism, etc. Once he got sober, and really, really had worked at it, I thought he was "fixed". Silly me. Now, if a doctor had told me that the underlying personality disorder could NEVER be fixed, I would have hit the road, and never had kids.
Though I am glad I have my kids, and my ex is a loving father, despite his narcissistic tendencies...he is like that governor who ran off to Argentina, a womanizer, not mean or violent.
I never said that mentally ill women should not have the RIGHT to have kids, that implies government intervention, or legal action ( though in some cases, with women who have murdered several children, criminal legal action might be taken to insure no more kids)
I merely said that it seems foolish to have kids if one has serious mental illness that is not remedied by treatment!
I do not appreciate the personal attack, and I am going to opt out of this conversation. I am sorry if my experiences with mental illness has led me to different opinions. That is my right, and I should not be mocked for those opinions. I have also had several neighbors with serious mental illness, and have seen how their families have suffered. I do not have the answers, but I am allowed to have my opinions!

 

[southcitymom]

I believe one article says she signed herself out.

I missed that. But surely if one group of doctors says a person needs to be hospitalized immediately for mental health issues, that person shouldn't be able to sign themselves out!

 

[Kat]

I missed that. But surely if one group of doctors says a person needs to be hospitalized immediately for mental health issues, that person shouldn't be able to sign themselves out!

Thanks OLG.

That's where I was going when I said that we should look to this case as a way of educating ourselves about the statutes in our own states and to seek new legislation that not only protects the community but also protects the metally ill patient and their family.

I remember an incident back either in the late 70's or the early 80's where legislation was passed for the metally ill but it resulted in "dumping" of a great many metally ill patients on the streets. I have been trying to remember the info on that so that I can look it up.

The reason being is that although it may have been good legislation at the time, it might need to be tweaked, reworked or rewritten altogether given time has passed and it has proved to be full of loopholes and it doesn't protect the community or the patient enough.

We have seen many extraordinarily gruesome crimes commited by patients that are profoundly mentally ill. While I can certainly understand that many of us feel that there must be justice for the victims of these particular perps...I also think we must look for ways to help prevent these crimes, look for ways to protect all concerned.

These perps are not evil. They do not make a conscious choice to commit a crime~ that, in of itself, seperates them from the masses in my mind of criminals that plot, plan and/or make a conscious choice to harm, maim, or inflict pain upon others through their crimes.

Bottom line is that this can be prevented. Or atleast we can prevent a lot of the crimes from happening if we demand change. Our outrage and anger could be better served if we hold the feet of those who have the power to make change to the fire.

As always just my humble opinion.

 

[CrankyPants]

I wonder if healthcare privacy laws prevented doctors from fully informing her family of the extent of her condition? It just seems like the sister who kept giving back the baby when this woman was virtually begging for help...well, you'd think she'd know better. Maybe she just didn't understand the danger?

I don't feel like it is unreasonable for special exceptions to be made to the HIPPA rules in this sort of case. Someone suffering with this type of mental illness/disorder NEEDS those around her to understand the condition and risks involved.

What a sad, sad, story.

 

[CHICANA]

There was something mentioned in one of the linked articles about the mother being on drugs ( according to a family member), but I am sure that will come out if true.
However........

I agree that the mother should have been under observation, but what I really do not understand is WHY it is ok for the mentally ill to have children???( and I know there are wonderful exceptions, and cases where medication works wonders, so please do not bash me)
I have a distant cousin who had mental problems, and she had a child with another mental patient....their son ended up in foster care, and it was very, very sad....I am not advocating a Nazi type of "sterilization of the unfit", but where is our common sense?
There are so many unwanted and abused children, why add mental illness into the mix, and by that I mean a handicap which makes it harder to parent?

I also have a friend who had a history of breakdowns, and yet went ahead and had four children. She is now dxed as Bipolar, and her children are complete wrecks. Basically, they have never had a mother! She is in and out of mental hospitals, and it is just heart breaking. And so selfish of her to have ignored her own history.

Because God decides who has children, and the Constitution backs him up. All citizens have the same rights, not some or selected or approved citizens. All.
How do we deny the 'wonderful exceptions' that you described the right to have children. There are lots of 'normal' people who make really lousy parents.
How do we stop them ?

 

[CHICANA]

also what i want to know is why the sister gets off scot-free? she's the one who kept handing the baby back the woman, who had been going off the deep end since the night before, and hearing voices. why would anyone in their right mind do something like that.. instead of protecting the defenseless child? isn't she partly negligent here?

To me it sounded like Otty knew something could happen and was begging for someone to help her protect her son from herself. She probably knew she wouldn't be able to control her psychosis much longer.
I wonder if religion had anything to do with her family's attitude. Some religions do not believe in mental illness or believe that the person can control it.
If they didn't want or couldn't handle the responsibility, they should have called someone.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am just curious if anyone has knowledge of a link that shows which gender in our society has been diagnosed most often to have a mental illness?

Is there a statistical site that breaks it down by gender?

I would really be very interested in reading any information on that and I have tried to search for it but have had no luck.

The only time I see it mentioned much is when a mother has murdered her child.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Native New Yorker]

Because God decides who has children, and the Constitution backs him up. All citizens have the same rights, not some or selected or approved citizens. All.
How do we deny the 'wonderful exceptions' that you described the right to have children. There are lots of 'normal' people who make really lousy parents.
How do we stop them ?
Why is that horribly selfish woman your friend ?

I just cannot believe your horribly unkind post! When I met that person, I had no idea she has a long history of mental illness, starting with hospitalizations in college. I met her 20 years ago in La Leche League, and she seemed frazzled, but fine...with four kids, the being frazzled seemed logical. We lost touch when I moved, and recently reconnected...found the four kids have now become alkies, druggies, had many abortions....and the mom now disclosed her history to me, and is currently hospitalized. Wow, so I guess I was just dumb to be her friend, without doing a background check!!!

Now, I find it interesting, and I may even leave this board over this, that people who suggested execution of the mom who killed her infant, have had less bashing than I have, when I simply related my experiences with moms who have mental illness. And I did not even cite all my experiences....now, why is it ok to urge execution, but not to say that she should not have had kids, given her precarious history??????

 

[Native New Yorker]

I am just curious if anyone has knowledge of a link that shows which gender in our society has been diagnosed most often to have a mental illness?

Is there a statistical site that breaks it down by gender?

I would really be very interested in reading any information on that and I have tried to search for it but have had no luck.

The only time I see it mentioned much is when a mother has murdered her child.

Thanks in advance.

I am guessing it is pretty even between the sexes, though perhaps hormones during/after pregnancy might make some conditions worse.

 

[southcitymom]

I just cannot believe your horribly unkind post! When I met that person, I had no idea she has a long history of mental illness, starting with hospitalizations in college. I met her 20 years ago in La Leche League, and she seemed frazzled, but fine...with four kids, the being frazzled seemed logical. We lost touch when I moved, and recently reconnected...found the four kids have now become alkies, druggies, had many abortions....and the mom now disclosed her history to me, and is currently hospitalized. Wow, so I guess I was just dumb to be her friend, without doing a background check!!!

Now, I find it interesting, and I may even leave this board over this, that people who suggested execution of the mom who killed her infant, have had less bashing than I have, when I simply related my experiences with moms who have mental illness. And I did not even cite all my experiences....now, why is it ok to urge execution, but not to say that she should not have had kids, given her precarious history??????

I hope you won't leave the board over this, NNY. I personally have appreciated your contributions to this conversation. Sometimes I think it is difficult for any of us not to take single posts hard to our hearts - that can be the nature of posting, I'm afraid - as opposed to sitting around a table and being able to read body language and inflection and all of that.

We're generally a very kind bunch here, but textured topics such as this really can bring us all to a heated place.

While I cannot see a way that controlling procreation could ever really work, I do understand considering it as a "solution" in light of terrible stories like this.