GUILTY TX - Zoe Hastings, 18, abducted & murdered, Dallas, 11 Oct 2015

[naomi44]

Julpal said

Sure he could call police but honestly if the police are called over every tiff that appears the least bit off/abduction-y then they will soon be very overburdened. People often meet in parking lots

Which is why I probably would have tailed the car. Assuming you are not driving something with a flashy bright color, the odds are AC would not have noticed. In any event, your doors are locked and you already have your phone in hand and possibly you are talking to the 911 operator. Then when they stop, depending on what happens, you can always report a "suspicious car", and that worked even in Texarkana.


But the police does crime prevention too. And I think it depends on what you say when you call. You could say: there was this guy sitting in his car in the parking lot. Not too far a girl comes and returns a movie to the red box machine. Now that takes a few minutes, these machines are not that fast in "sucking the movie in" and finally showing the "thank you" message on the screen. All this time he does not get off his seat, does not wave at her or speak to her. It is only after she gets back in her car and is about to close the door that he jumps out of his seat, goes to her car very quickly and manages to stick his hand in the door and prevent her from closing it. Then he gets in the car. After that I am sorry but I could not see what was happening in the car with the tinted windows and all. But they left and he was driving. I am sorry but I have a really bad feeling there.
That is what I mean by you should not be reluctant to look like a moron at times, assuming it would have turned out to be a casual meeting.

I think that LC picked up on this timing of the action, he just did not quite put the words on it.

 

[AliVada]

It's possible any car he had was at the tattoo parlor and he'd have lost time and a visual on the car had he dashed there to try and give chase.

And while the beginning (hand in door, more motion or back n forth he described) looked odd by the time she scooted over he'd assumed they were a couple just briefly bickering before they "jetted" out of the parking lot.

I'm sure he'll always regret not getting involved.

Once a very long time ago a friend and I were waiting in a parking lot for another friend who had to run an errand. Suddenly we could hear arguing and a couple came from behind us, the woman yelling things about not going anywhere with him, yelling she was done with him, telling him to eff off ....so the guy threw up his hands and started to walk off ....so my friend asks her if she wanted a ride somewhere to get away from the guy. The woman turned her ire on my friend, just yelling odd things at her/us and being defensive about the guy who was her husband, she gave u quite a scare pounding on our car ...only to leave with guy he had been cursing out and telling off?

You never know how someone will respond or if our vibes are right or wrong, even in the moment.

He was so bold to do this in broad daylight with others watching ....so very scary.

Kathy

 

[naomi44]

Kathy said:

It's possible any car he had was at the tattoo parlor and he'd have lost time and a visual on the car had he dashed there to try and give chase.

Most certainly. Plus LC was on break from his job, so I am guessing he would not have the luxury to go on a wild goose chase. I am assuming he needs his job. Plus he may not have thought of it anyway.


My point above was no to bring up what LC might have done, could have done. There are these situations where there is really no time to actally think, you are just following your instinct. For example say there is a car coming in your direction in your lane and you have to avoid a head on collision. You just act and then you probably have to stop a bit down the road because your knees are shaking realizing afterwards what really happened. Things here were may be not quite as sudden but there was still no time to weigh the pros and cons.


My point above was trying to identify what about the action in the parking lot was the most indicative of something being amiss, and that may be different for different people. For me when I have an appointment with a friend in a public place, the first thing I do upon arriving is let them know I am there. They may be busy reading a book, making a phone call etc ...and not see me.


Let us say he was there first, then you would think that when she arived she might have waved or said a few words before going to the Redbox.


Perhaps they arrived at the same time, him following her, if you think they are friends then of course they would not wave but I do not see why he would stay in his car sitting there and then jump and rush to catch her door.just as she is leaving without a word. You would have to imagine they had some sort of argument before getting there, but that would not be a usual behavior.


That is his sitting in the car wihout them acknowledging each other that raised a red flag for me. Then of couse the rush to catch the door

 

[Cardinal47]

It's possible any car he had was at the tattoo parlor and he'd have lost time and a visual on the car had he dashed there to try and give chase.

And while the beginning (hand in door, more motion or back n forth he described) looked odd by the time she scooted over he'd assumed they were a couple just briefly bickering before they "jetted" out of the parking lot.

I'm sure he'll always regret not getting involved.

Once a very long time ago a friend and I were waiting in a parking lot for another friend who had to run an errand. Suddenly we could hear arguing and a couple came from behind us, the woman yelling things about not going anywhere with him, yelling she was done with him, telling him to eff off ....so the guy threw up his hands and started to walk off ....so my friend asks her if she wanted a ride somewhere to get away from the guy. The woman turned her ire on my friend, just yelling odd things at her/us and being defensive about the guy who was her husband, she gave u quite a scare pounding on our car ...only to leave with guy he had been cursing out and telling off?

You never know how someone will respond or if our vibes are right or wrong, even in the moment.

He was so bold to do this in broad daylight with others watching ....so very scary.

Kathy

Well I think you are right. The Good Samaritan is long gone. Folks are afraid when they hear about road rage and gangs of ****s with cell phones going into a store and robbing.

Most folks tend to mind their own business and if you are lucky enough to have a really good person nearby when you get in trouble lucky you!

From what I have read Zoe gave NO sign she was in trouble. He gave no sign he meant trouble.

Just a blonde girl and a black guy. Nobody's business until.

I keep thinking about what one poster said up thread about his car parked right there for anybody to take notice of. Seems if he was there to grab some girl he would have at least hid his car?

 

[dianewms]

The police have said his motive was sexual assault but he has not been charged with rape. It makes me think he was not successful and maybe that is why he killed her.
One of the requirements of going on an LDS mission is sexual purity. She would have no prior experience and would have fought. You are interviewed before going on a mission to see if you qualify.

 

[MamaJoJo]

The police have said his motive was sexual assault but he has not been charged with rape. It makes me think he was not successful and maybe that is why he killed her.
One of the requirements of going on an LDS mission is sexual purity. She would have no prior experience and would have fought. You are interviewed before going on a mission to see if you qualify.

BBM

She would have fought regardless of her prior lack of experience.

 

[Sonya610]

BBM

She would have fought regardless of her prior lack of experience.

Sexual purity is a REALLY big deal to Mormons. Elizabeth Smart (Mormon girl kidnapped from her bedroom and held for over a year) said that one of the reasons she didn't try harder to flee her captor was because she felt she was now "ruined" after having been raped.

 

[MamaJoJo]

Sexual purity is a REALLY big deal to Mormons. Elizabeth Smart (Mormon girl kidnapped from her bedroom and held for over a year) said that one of the reasons she didn't try harder to flee her captor was because she felt she was now "ruined" after having been raped.

I'm not doubting that sexual purity is a REALLY big deal to Mormons (or to anyone who has chosen, for whatever reason, to remain a virgin). Your example of ES, however, doesn't address what the OP is purporting.

The OP said, "She (ZH) would have no prior experience and would have fought." I am merely pointing out that usually anyone who is being raped, whether they have had sex before or not, would fight. In saying this I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone so please don't take my comment as such.

 

[Cardinal47]

Nobody wants to be raped and will usually fight to the death. Poor Zoe.

 

[naomi44]

Nobody wants to be raped and will usually fight to the death

Nobody wants to be raped : true
Will usually fight to the death: I don't think that is supported by the statistics. The percentage of rapes that result in homicide is a minority of cases. No time to get the exact number now but likely below 10%.
It seems about 70% of women fight their attacker in some way, with nearly half stating afterwards that it did not help or made things worse. Near 30% of women do not fight. That does not mean they "collaborate" but rather that their instinct at the time does not tell them to, and that perhaps they prioritize survival.

I know several women who have been raped by total strangers-intruders. I do not know any case of someone getting murdered as part of a sexual crime.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo but I am not so sure it is a good idea, or even recommended, to "fight to the death" when being sexually assualted. I guess your life is always in danger in such a situation, but if you try to make a point not to see your attacker, you might have a chance to survive. Not sure what experts advise, or if it really matters. Each situation is different.

I wish Zoe had been able to keep control of her car and crash into an occupied vehicle...I think if someone gets into your car, that would be about the best thing I could come up with. Anyway jmo, and sadly, if an assailant is determined to kill, he/she probably will.

 

[dianewms]

Why didn't the airbags go off? If only...

 

[Sulamith]

The police have said his motive was sexual assault but he has not been charged with rape. It makes me think he was not successful and maybe that is why he killed her.
One of the requirements of going on an LDS mission is sexual purity. She would have no prior experience and would have fought. You are interviewed before going on a mission to see if you qualify.

Depending on the prospective missionary's bishop or stake president, it is possible to serve a mission if not a virgin. The person would have to go through a "repentance process". Just a general FYI and not speculating on this case.

 

[blue22]

Nobody wants to be raped and will usually fight to the death. Poor Zoe.

There is no "usually." That doesn't exist. Being raped is a tortuous otherworldly experience. I have worked with both children and adult victims of sexual crimes. There is simply no norm.

You are right, nobody wants to be raped. And those that are, sure don't want to feel shamed, because they didn't so the "usual." I realize that you weren't likely victim blaming on purpose, but this kind of language is an example of how we accidentally place the blame on victims. Trust me, rape victims are already thinking about all the things they could have and should have done.

ETA: If I misinterpreted your comment, I apologize!

 

[Cardinal47]

Nobody wants to be raped and will usually fight to the death. Poor Zoe.

Nobody wants to be raped : true
Will usually fight to the death: I don't think that is supported by the statistics. The percentage of rapes that result in homicide is a minority of cases. No time to get the exact number now but likely below 10%.
It seems about 70% of women fight their attacker in some way, with nearly half stating afterwards that it did not help or made things worse. Near 30% of women do not fight. That does not mean they "collaborate" but rather that their instinct at the time does not tell them to, and that perhaps they prioritize survival.

I know several women who have been raped by total strangers-intruders. I do not know any case of someone getting murdered as part of a sexual crime.

Morgan Harrington
Hannah Anderson

 

[MamaJoJo]

Cardinal's words of "fight to the death" may be a bit over zealous but, Blue, you make a good point about the use of the word "usually". I even used it in my one of my posts above but, I will concede, there is no standard rape so "usually" cannot apply. Thank you Naomi for posting stats on victim reactions.

I was raped though I didn't fight to the death. In my mind that's what I did but what I did in reality was much more passive. Anyway...

RIP sweet Zoe and may her family be supported by the grace of God as they continue on without her.

 

[naomi44]

Cardinal when I said:

I know several women who have been raped by total strangers-intruders. I do not know any case of someone getting murdered as part of a sexual crime.

I meant obviously I know PERSONALLY several women who have been raped. There are many more than "several" in the US every day, including the fact that a significant fraction are victims of men they know. 75% of women reporting being raped were assaulted by men they knew. It also seems that rape by known assailants is more under reported than rape by strangers. In addition 33% of women murdered in the US were murdered by husband or boyfriends. (data from year 2000).

I do not know personally any woman that has been murdered during a rape, although my neighbor in Chicago was killed by gunshot in front of our elevator and since the murder was never solved it is possible that she refused to let an intruder to her apartment (she would have refused for sure since she was sharing the place with her younger sister who was at home). But on the other hand she was a very well known anti gun activist in the city so another explanation is also possible although perhaps less likely..

 

[Cardinal47]

Naomi44

And when I said 'fight to the death' it was just a phase meaning most rape victims fight back. As hard as they can. Unfortunately many are killed after they are raped.

Perhaps I should have said 'fight to their death'.

I think we can all agree that rape is a most heinous crime on any woman.

MOO

 

[naomi44]

I have been trying to find the answer to what I thought was a simple question: what is the frequency of sexual violence associated homicides. Apparently it is not a simple question, because of all sorts of reasons including homicide classifications, under reporting of some categories etc... this number is nearly impossible to find.

However if there are about 3000 women murdered every year (3292 women murdered in 2010), let us say half are murdered by domestic partners, boyfriends or someone they know, it leaves us with 1500 killed by a stranger (that combines all homicides: robberies ets...). There are many more than 15,000 rapes every year ( Near 80,000 reported in 2013). Likely the number of women killed during a rape by a stranger is well under 1 in 10.


But we have an example right here of how the classification of cases can be misleading. From what appears of the charges so far, AC is not charged with rape. So this case would not be classified as rape+murder. Perhaps rape did not take place, perhaps he is claiming consensual sex (as he did in a previous case) and there is no physical eidence of force. Why would he murder Zoe? simplest explanation: he knew DNA evidence would identify him due to his prior offenses and became convinced that Zoe would report the rape.
With his victim "gone" he is trying to claim consensual encounter and avoid first degree murder charges, but taking her car keys results in him being charged with capital murder anyway.
If there had been no rape I don't think he would have killed her. But of course the murder makes no sense anyway since his DNA is there, I guess he has been counting on reasonable doubt and is not about to confess.
But I think building a lot of "converging" circumstantial evidence can go a long way towards sinking the doubt.


To begin with: can one establish a premeditated assault?
The timing of the action at Walgreens is much more suggestive of a planned attack than of a casual encounter.
Him and Zoe had a Tinder account, perhaps forensic analysis can establish whether he looked at her picture many times or visited her Facebook page many times. Did he have a way to know that she would be dropping a movie at Walgreens (forensics), or was he just following her? (order in which the cars arrived)
Where were his "spare" clothes?
Was he really wearing a wig? was he still wearing the wig after changing clothes? I would be amazed if LC could recognize this guy with and without the wig as the same guy (ie I would be surprise if he was wearing a wig at all).


Obviously we will see what all the evidence will show, that is just my own attempt at figuring out "what is the simplest explanation accounting for the facts" (the few we know).

 

[bessie]

I have been trying to find the answer to what I thought was a simple question: what is the frequency of sexual violence associated homicides. Apparently it is not a simple question, because of all sorts of reasons including homicide classifications, under reporting of some categories etc... this number is nearly impossible to find.

Add to those reasons the fact that sexual predators often are unable to perform sexually and substitute the sex act with an enraged act of violence; or, the perpetrator has a paraphilia whereby sexual excitement is attained through unusual means, some violent, e.g., piquerism.