UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Cartie]

Agreed, it's not impossible but highly improbable.

Two babies born within 12 months is common enough that there's a term that I'm not going to say because it's considered derogatory (not sure if it's supposed to be derogatory or a compliment).

Mine are 10 months apart! At the moment they are the same age until March

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Mine are 10 months apart! At the moment they are the same age until March

Aww congratulations but that must have been hard work! Handling a tiny one with a burgeoning pregnancy. Well I believe it’s good luck like a four leaf clover

 

[Mirabel091]

Yes, but why leave on 26th? The holiday cottage was booked until the 28th.

This article says MG checked in at a Leeds police station on the 26th. That's a good 2-3 hour drive from Northumberland where the holiday cottage was. Had he been told he had to be in Leeds on that day and it had slipped their minds when booking the cottage - hence needing to leave in a rush?

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

Or, did they have plans for Victoria to be born somewhere other than the holiday cottage, if they thought they had more time before she was due - perhaps with friends near to Leeds? If CM's waters broke unexpectedly they would have had to leave straight away and hope they made it.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Long time lurker and prob won’t post much.

Re the above

The ‘red wine stain’ could be blood?

Also, the reports in the press re their hygiene seem less outlandish when you read the details. Eg the urine on the floor in the holiday home was on the bathroom floor - could be a case of poor aim rather than deliberate. Constance Marten and lover claim they kept baby 'well nourished'

The tent they were living in with ‘bin bags and urine bottles’ - the bin bags were full of clothes - which isn’t a terribly unusual way to store/transit clothing. The urine bottles were outside the tent which is grim, but if you’re living in a tent with no access to a toilet, it’s maybe less antisocial than actually pissing on the ground? Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

The photos of the 'trashed' house don't look that trashed to me. Not cleaned up as you would expect but essentially dirty kitchen, bin overflowing and some strange marks on the floor/door frame. I was anticipating far worse. A family member has several holiday lets. The condition some leave them in is shocking. Not just dirty but curtains hanging off the wall, smashed glasses.

I want to believe that she had the baby at the holiday home but the lack of meds relating to it makes me think she didn't. And I still can't get my head round the cat litter.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Kitty litter and pocket knives: Tips to survive winter weather when stranded in your car - National | Globalnews.ca

“People want to be able to keep themselves warm for at least half an hour while waiting for help to come.”

globalnews.ca

'Sand or kitty litter can be used as traction for emergency traction if your car tires are stuck. And the cat litter has an added bonus; if you put it in a tied-off sock on the dashboard, it can suck in the moisture and help prevent condensation on your windshield.'

''If you have extra newspaper hanging around your home, stash it in your car. If you’re stuck on the road, you can insulate your vehicle’s window, which helps trap in heat and acts as a barrier against the wind.''

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/salt-ineffective-extreme-cold-weather-calgary-sidewalks-1.5016579

"When the temperature goes below –10 C, salt becomes a lot less effective," Chris McGeachy told CBC News.
"Our recommendation is after you shovel your sidewalk, is to lay down an abrasive. This can include sand, gravel or even cat litter."

I have been meaning to mention that the cat litter could of been from the bottom of a bag or from shoes and could be gravel.
I have been playing catch up and I was waiting to see if someone else mentioned it first before I was caught up.
I have actually used cat litter to get my car unstuck before also.


ETA: It would have been before V died, because the cat litter was found at the vacation cottage.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

<modsnip -quoted post was removed>

Hi is a difficult one to get head around…stating the obvious, I think they are both 2 very damaged people-he by the US prison system & she by her past experience at TB Joshuas Synagogue Church Of All Nations as she spent some time there in Nigeria as a teen. I do wonder if Mark Gordon was converted or turned to the same or similar type of evangelical church whilst in prison in the States i remember he was a bit odd, bit of a drifter and spoke in a cult like manner and was anti-drugs-many inmates turn to god/religion/cult etc especially if serving long sentences like he did.

I think fate somehow threw them together in 2016 as this was around the time she cut off from studying, friends and family and they then disappeared from mainstream society. They obviously tried to create an alternative off grid living but neither seems to be able to look after themselves let alone their own children, hence SS involvement over the other 4 children and the conditions they were found living in/left in hospital etc. Personally I think they are both utterly co dependent on each other & both have unresolved mental health issues that have exacerbated over time. i dont think drugs are involved but I do think there is perhaps some muddled following of past cult/scoan practises or their behaviour is the product of past traumas (prison/tb joshua, rebellion against privileged upbringing/law etc etc) …thats just my opinion



Convicted rapist Mark Gordon’s sex crimes revealed



Abuse at the hands of ‘phoney prophet’: Inside cult linked to Constance Marten

This is a very interesting view, and I feel you have hit the nail on the head with the co-dependency and not being able to look after themselves. He was a teenager when he was in jail, his schedule, meals, work, and exercise were organised for him. CM likely had a lot of life organized for her as a teenager. They were both imprisoned but in different ways, and the combination of the two created their 'lifestyle', which I assume was focused on freedom and spontaneity.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Mine are 10 months apart! At the moment they are the same age until March

You have my praise. My first two were 23 months apart, and I thought that was crazy, but my gran had 12 children in total, some less than a year apart. My dad was the youngest, and his older sister was only 11 months older.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

The photos of the 'trashed' house don't look that trashed to me. Not cleaned up as you would expect but essentially dirty kitchen, bin overflowing and some strange marks on the floor/door frame. I was anticipating far worse. A family member has several holiday lets. The condition some leave them in is shocking. Not just dirty but curtains hanging off the wall, smashed glasses.

I want to believe that she had the baby at the holiday home but the lack of meds relating to it makes me think she didn't. And I still can't get my head round the cat litter.

I agree with you on the 'trashed cottage'. it looks messy and I would have cleaned that up, but it's not trashed. The owners have said it was their first time renting it out too, so that would be the first time they had seen anyone but thereselves using the cottage.
I think they left in a hurry and/or they really feel that it was clean because they are unconcerned with mess.

 

[Cardgame]

The details about CM giving birth (to previous child) under a fake name and pretending to be a traveller are so interesting to me.

Podcast says it's because she thought it would be easier to get council housing.

But JMO...who needs council housing when they've got a massive trust fund?

MOO but I think it could be indictive of a personality type, traits including the enjoyment of 'pulling the wool over' authority's eyes.

For my money, if CM wanted to give birth undetected, couldn't she just posh it out?

A very posh woman who says she's on holiday in the UK, an ex pat, whatever, I can think of loads of posh related cover stories which would have allowed her to give birth in a hospital and not be immediately leapt on by social services.

And yet she chose a 'cover story' which was much more likely to alert the authorities, and voluntarily told them she was living in a van. Why? And putting on an Irish accent... it feels like a game, like something a teenager would do.

Possible she enjoyed playing games with social services, police and NHS staff? Maybe enjoyed the attention? Could be this same tactic is now playing out with the legal team?

Surely she will appear in court soon. JMO.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Just wondering, has anyone confirmed how much regular access CM had to the trust fund? I know she got a payment prior to running away, but there are lots of different situations that that could indicate. Trust funds often have rules in place specifically because the family and the people put in charge of it want to control how that money is spent. I don’t know what the rules for this particular one are, but often they’d limit amounts and have rules around what it’s needed for. JMO, but it’s unlikely CM said, “I’m pregnant and I’m planning to evade social services and police by crossing the country, sleeping in a tent and endangering my baby.” Equally, she may not have had to give much indication at all, it depends on the fund’s own rules.

In some cases, for example, it might be released for further education or finding a job, but wouldn’t be if they believed it was to be used for a huge holiday and funding a partner’s telly. In other cases, it’s more of an age limit and a withdrawal limit and is left up to the person requesting funds what is done with it.

 

[Cardgame]

Just wondering, has anyone confirmed how much regular access CM had to the trust fund? I know she got a payment prior to running away, but there are lots of different situations that that could indicate. Trust funds often have rules in place specifically because the family and the people put in charge of it want to control how that money is spent. I don’t know what the rules for this particular one are, but often they’d limit amounts and have rules around what it’s needed for. JMO, but it’s unlikely CM said, “I’m pregnant and I’m planning to evade social services and police by crossing the country, sleeping in a tent and endangering my baby.” Equally, she may not have had to give much indication at all, it depends on the fund’s own rules.

In some cases, for example, it might be released for further education or finding a job, but wouldn’t be if they believed it was to be used for a huge holiday and funding a partner’s telly. In other cases, it’s more of an age limit and a withdrawal limit and is left up to the person requesting funds what is done with it.

We know she had a decent chunk paid in in Dec (somewhere in the region of £20K+) and that the police said during the missing search that she probably had access to large amounts of cash.

Constance Marten was receiving thousands in trust fund payments while on the run, court hears

The 36-year-old is accused, alongside boyfriend Mark Gordon, 49, of the manslaughter of their daughter, Victoria

www.telegraph.co.uk

The problem they had once they'd been on the run for a while was that they couldn't get more out without alerting authorities to the withdrawal transaction.

 

[Cardgame]

JMO, but it’s unlikely CM said, “I’m pregnant and I’m planning to evade social services and police by crossing the country, sleeping in a tent and endangering my baby.”

Isn't that exactly what she said and did and that's what this whole case is about?

 

[CaptainNancy]

“A very posh woman who says she's on holiday in the UK, an ex pat, whatever, I can think of loads of posh related cover stories which would have allowed her to give birth in a hospital and not be immediately leapt on by social services.”

People not resident or working in the UK are not entitled to free NHS treatment except immediate A&E. As an expat or holidaymaker she would have been asked for payment , so unless she had loads of cash in her, that would have meant a traceable card.

The traveller story enabled her to claim resident status without proof of address.

 

[Cardgame]

“A very posh woman who says she's on holiday in the UK, an ex pat, whatever, I can think of loads of posh related cover stories which would have allowed her to give birth in a hospital and not be immediately leapt on by social services.”

People not resident or working in the UK are not entitled to free NHS treatment except immediate A&E. As an expat or holidaymaker she would have been asked for payment , so unless she had loads of cash in her, that would have meant a traceable card.

The traveller story enabled her to claim resident status without proof of address.

Hmm this is a good point. And that reasoning makes more sense than that she wanted to get council housing.

[Although, we know she did have access to large amounts of cash. So she actually could have paid. And if she was someone who wanted to keep hold of her kids at all cost, then why wouldn't she?]

But I take your point.

Maybe you're right and it really was a cunning plan. It just feels so... grandiose or something.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Isn't that exactly what she said and did and that's what this whole case is about?

Yes, sorry, my point is it’s unlikely she said that to whoever control the trust fund in regards to accessing trust fund money, which usually has constraints in place (which is essentially one of the main reasons for a trust fund structure). It is what she did, but she could well have had to claim something very different to access trust fund money. Equally, she may not have had to explain much at all depending on the rules of that specific trust fund. Does that make sense? Apologies if not explaining well.

 

[Earthwindfire]

She could have been whoever she wanted to be.

 

[Cardgame]

Yes, sorry, my point is it’s unlikely she said that to whoever control the trust fund in regards to accessing trust fund money, which usually has constraints in place (which is essentially one of the main reasons for a trust fund structure). It is what she did, but she could well have had to claim something very different to access trust fund money. Equally, she may not have had to explain much at all depending on the rules of that specific trust fund. Does that make sense? Apologies if not explaining well.

Ah, I see what you're saying. My understanding was that while on the run she had payments coming in which were equivalent to the annual salary of your average person. Whether those were very regular (monthly) or less regular (annual) I'm working off the basis that they were automatic, rather than that they had been specifically requested from the trust at that time. But you're right, I'm not sure that information has been released.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Sorry, posted too soon there.

She had so much money she could have been whoever she wanted to be. She picked to be an Irish traveller. Why? Equally she didn't have to be anything or anyone. She could have just had her baby at home and employed the services of a doula. But then when you have your first that maybe seems a scary idea.

 

[DSleuth]

Just wondering, has anyone confirmed how much regular access CM had to the trust fund? I know she got a payment prior to running away, but there are lots of different situations that that could indicate. Trust funds often have rules in place specifically because the family and the people put in charge of it want to control how that money is spent. I don’t know what the rules for this particular one are, but often they’d limit amounts and have rules around what it’s needed for. JMO, but it’s unlikely CM said, “I’m pregnant and I’m planning to evade social services and police by crossing the country, sleeping in a tent and endangering my baby.” Equally, she may not have had to give much indication at all, it depends on the fund’s own rules.

In some cases, for example, it might be released for further education or finding a job, but wouldn’t be if they believed it was to be used for a huge holiday and funding a partner’s telly. In other cases, it’s more of an age limit and a withdrawal limit and is left up to the person requesting funds what is done with it.

Isn't that exactly what she said and did and that's what this whole case is about?

It’s what she did. I think it’s unlikely she announced to the trustees that she wanted the money to do that.

 

[Alyce]

Just wondering, has anyone confirmed how much regular access CM had to the trust fund? I know she got a payment prior to running away, but there are lots of different situations that that could indicate. Trust funds often have rules in place specifically because the family and the people put in charge of it want to control how that money is spent. I don’t know what the rules for this particular one are, but often they’d limit amounts and have rules around what it’s needed for. JMO, but it’s unlikely CM said, “I’m pregnant and I’m planning to evade social services and police by crossing the country, sleeping in a tent and endangering my baby.” Equally, she may not have had to give much indication at all, it depends on the fund’s own rules.

In some cases, for example, it might be released for further education or finding a job, but wouldn’t be if they believed it was to be used for a huge holiday and funding a partner’s telly. In other cases, it’s more of an age limit and a withdrawal limit and is left up to the person requesting funds what is done with it.

Part of the evidence given ( not reported by The Argus but available within the Podcast - link given again below in post 843 ) stated that after C and M were evicted from a flat in London, they lived in a camper van. They accumulated thousands of £ in fines for the van. C asked her family to pay these fines but they refused.

An interesting contrast with the trust fund payments which we know she received in December and January.

the jury heard that on 22 December 2022, Ms Marten received a payment into her Metrobank account of £15,590 from a family trust fund.
On January 3 2023, another payment was received from a different trust, this time for £3,400.


www.telegraph.co.uk