UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[dotr]

The cat litter might turn out to be irrelevant, I have no idea honestly. It just puzzled me because it's not the type of thing to be provided by the host in an airbnb/holiday rental etc. because they don't typically cater for cat owners to bring their cats do they. So if it wasn't in the rented property already, that means CM and MG bought it. It's an odd thing to buy without a use for it. It's bulky and heavy, you don't buy it by accident. But it could just be one of those random irrelevant details, who knows. Maybe it will become apparent later on

MOO

Sometimes there is gravel at the side of a road and sometimes people keep cat litter in a car for traction in slippery conditions - maybe some got mixed in with the items thrown from their burning car?
OR, they did have a cat.
speculation, imo.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Sometimes there is gravel at the side of a road and sometimes people keep cat litter in a car for traction in slippery conditions - maybe some got mixed in with the items thrown from their burning car?
OR, they did have a cat.
speculation, imo.

Yep let’s not rule out that there was an actual cat or dog

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Sometimes there is gravel at the side of a road and sometimes people keep cat litter in a car for traction in slippery conditions - maybe some got mixed in with the items thrown from their burning car?
OR, they did have a cat.
speculation, imo.

In fairness I've actually been meaning to buy some to put in my car because its a vauxhall and the condensation is horrendous!

 

[Parker Knoll]

JMO but possibly used to mask odours from the Lidl bag for life ?

 

[dotr]

In fairness I've actually been meaning to buy some to put in my car because its a vauxhall and the condensation is horrendous!

Kitty litter and pocket knives: Tips to survive winter weather when stranded in your car - National | Globalnews.ca

“People want to be able to keep themselves warm for at least half an hour while waiting for help to come.”

globalnews.ca

'Sand or kitty litter can be used as traction for emergency traction if your car tires are stuck. And the cat litter has an added bonus; if you put it in a tied-off sock on the dashboard, it can suck in the moisture and help prevent condensation on your windshield.'

''If you have extra newspaper hanging around your home, stash it in your car. If you’re stuck on the road, you can insulate your vehicle’s window, which helps trap in heat and acts as a barrier against the wind.''

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/salt-ineffective-extreme-cold-weather-calgary-sidewalks-1.5016579

"When the temperature goes below –10 C, salt becomes a lot less effective," Chris McGeachy told CBC News.
"Our recommendation is after you shovel your sidewalk, is to lay down an abrasive. This can include sand, gravel or even cat litter."

 

[iamshadow21]

JMO but possibly used to mask odours from the Lidl bag for life ?

As we saw in the case of Eunsoon Jun, cat litter can be very effective to dessicate and reduce odour of remains. A newborn infant, it probably wouldn't take that many bags, especially if they were changing the litter out.

(Don't do crime, and don't use cat litter this way. It's a good way to preserve the deceased and provide the police with evidence against you.)

MOO

 

[Telltale]

Meth is totally out of control in the UK gay male club scene but I agree that's niche.
It's not in general use like in the USA or Australia / NZ. Also in the UK it's not easy to have a lab and get away with it.

Crack and heroin are still big. To me, if I were to speculate, I say CM and MG best fit the profile of aged long term 'functioning' heroin addicts but they don't look like they are physically and there's been zero reports of this so that's a conundrum. Let's see if something comes out in court.

JMO MOO

Marten certainly has the money to maintain a 'functional' heroin habit, without the downsides of the lifestyle some are forced into to try and pay for it.

I am still not convinced there is drug dependency involved. If there was though, I would also think that would be the most likely.

TBH the person who said baby formula might have hit on the obvious answer.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Re the cat litter conundrum & just another angle- but maybe given her involvement with the TB Joshua’s SCOAN church, the cat littler was used for some ritual/religious purpose? After all, they kept the placenta to apparently ‘grow a tree from’ as in her word its a ‘religious thing’ see links below.

“Marten said she had hoped to bury the placenta to “grow a tree from it”, telling police it is a “religious thing” and “just something we do”



Abuse at the hands of ‘phoney prophet’: Inside cult linked to Constance Marten



Constance Marten and partner 'plotted to blame cot death for loss of newborn baby'

 

[Amaz0nia]

<modsnip -quoted post was removed>

Hi is a difficult one to get head around…stating the obvious, I think they are both 2 very damaged people-he by the US prison system & she by her past experience at TB Joshuas Synagogue Church Of All Nations as she spent some time there in Nigeria as a teen. I do wonder if Mark Gordon was converted or turned to the same or similar type of evangelical church whilst in prison in the States i remember he was a bit odd, bit of a drifter and spoke in a cult like manner and was anti-drugs-many inmates turn to god/religion/cult etc especially if serving long sentences like he did.

I think fate somehow threw them together in 2016 as this was around the time she cut off from studying, friends and family and they then disappeared from mainstream society. They obviously tried to create an alternative off grid living but neither seems to be able to look after themselves let alone their own children, hence SS involvement over the other 4 children and the conditions they were found living in/left in hospital etc. Personally I think they are both utterly co dependent on each other & both have unresolved mental health issues that have exacerbated over time. i dont think drugs are involved but I do think there is perhaps some muddled following of past cult/scoan practises or their behaviour is the product of past traumas (prison/tb joshua, rebellion against privileged upbringing/law etc etc) …thats just my opinion



Convicted rapist Mark Gordon’s sex crimes revealed



Abuse at the hands of ‘phoney prophet’: Inside cult linked to Constance Marten

 

[MadeleineMaxwell]

I was thinking about the defences version of events re Victoria's death. It's clever, because if you convict CM with manslaughter for that, you suggest that every parent who has lost a child to SIDS is guilty as well.

Also as a midwife who has attended many home births, the level of mess varies a huge amount. I've had many births where half an hour later you'd never know anything had happened and some where I thought they'd probably need to replace the carpets! Given it was her 5th birth it would probably be quick and straightforward. The cat litter suggests to me it was for clearing up after the birth.

JMO

 

[rightsaidfred]

I'm starting to be reminded of the 2012 case of Hans and Eva Rausing. Heirs to the Tetra Pak fortune, with a raging crack / heroin habit. She died at home - drug induced heart failure - and Hans hid her body at home for two months.

They had children, but kept them because the household staff were essentially raising them.

I feel like CM & MG lacked the ability to look after themselves properly, but also lacked the ability to either let others look after them, or recognise the need for practical help.

We don't know exactly why the first four children were removed, but often those with lots of money can normally use it to paper over the cracks well enough to keep SS at bay. Cleaners, nannies, etc.

.... though I'm not convinced this was drugs, seeing as we haven't heard a word about it from the prosecution in the first two days.

 

[DSleuth]

More on the MG police station visit in Sheffield on 19 December:

1. "Gordon reported to a police station in Sheffield on December 19, 2022" (BBM - but saying "reported" rather than simply that he went there could be case of journalism)

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

2. "South Yorkshire police recorded that Marten might be pregnant and raised an alert on December 19, 2022, the Old Bailey was told."

Constance Marten ‘took £20,000 cash on the run before baby died’

Aristocrat and boyfriend Mark Gordon criss-crossed Britain to avoid new daughter being taken into care ‘then let her die in freezing and squalid surroundings’

www.thetimes.co.uk

That's interesting.

I think the reason for the use of the word “report” in the above is because MG is on the sex offenders register and one of the requirements of this is that all offenders subject to the notification requirements under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (the 2003 Act) to notify to the police:

• weekly, where they are not registered as regularly residing or staying at one place (that is, where a registered sex offender has no sole or main residence and instead must notify the police of the place where he can regularly be found)

So I think going to the police is to do with that and that’s why they’ve chosen the word reported rather then went.

One of the other requirements is that they notify the police

• where they are living in a household with a child under the age of 18

So my opinion is that CM either went to the police station with him or the police otherwise found out that she was heavily pregnant and reported to social services

 

[guiser]

JMO but possibly used to mask odours from the Lidl bag for life ?

Baby possibly wasn't even born yet.
The Lidl bag didn't come into play for a while.

 

[Alyce]

Today's podcast just dropped, haven't listened to it yet

Google Podcasts

With Google Podcasts, you can find and listen to the world's podcasts for free.

podcasts.google.com

The podcast that I was referring to earlier - I thought the link had been included but looks like it wasnt

here it is above

 

[Obergine]

I wonder if we should be considering that they were living on New Age Traveller sites when in Wales. It's a popular destination for new agers and the community is known for love of drugs, parties and spiritual/natural woo and also deep suspicion of authorities. Also, explains the festival style tent and campervan, and the apparent lack of friends to call on - these are not people that would come forward to authorities either.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Hello, new here but a long time reader, so apologies for any mistakes.

I’d doubt New Age traveller sites were a possibility because I think they were terrified of being found. Equally, the rural Welsh are chatty - even to New Age travellers - and those communities often chat to locals, even if keeping their distance.

Something I think is key and might not be fully understood by some is that the bar for removing children from families is set very high. Families have to consistently demonstrate they won’t make changes and are putting their children’s safety at risk. This is more than low level neglect or one episode of suspected violence. I’m an adoptee and involved in the UK adoption community and children who have been removed have gone through sustained periods of trauma where their needs have not been met or they’ve been subjected to horrific abuse (often multiple times). I’m not saying CM or MG did any of these things because so many situations are possible, but I am saying ‘forced’ adoptions are ‘forced’ to protect children from severely dangerous situations, give them a supportive family (usually trained in therapeutic parenting techniques to aid trauma recovery) and not because parents are deemed permanently ‘unfit to breed’ at all. Parents do have the chance to parent again if they make long term significant changes and are usually given support and opportunities to do so. There are still assessments for unborn children before a removal order is granted (the child has to be born for the actual legal order to be made, iirc). There are also charities like Pause, who work with birth mums to encourage them to learn about themselves and take time to address their own needs before having another child, who (after they’ve worked through their issues) they are so much more likely to keep. At the moment, SS is underfunded and case loads are high, so that support isn’t as available as it was. However, the aim is always to keep the family together and it’s the most extreme cases where that stops being possible.

Equally, a very small number of children are still relinquished, but that’s very rare in the modern world.

It can be a cycle though: parents have issues and the support fails and parents aren’t able to make changes in time, they have another child and are increasingly afraid to have them taken, but are equally still not able to address their own difficulties, services respond in certain ways because of their history and it drives them deeper into the cycle of hiding issues and the child is even more at risk. It doesn’t mean the system is entirely wrong or the child wasn’t at risk in the first place, but it’s still a terrifying situation for almost any parent to be in, whether they’re able to appropriately care for their children or not. I’m

(Side note: Some good documentaries outlining the types of issues parents might face and the process are ‘Protecting our Children’, where one of the couples included lived in a tent and were homeless and ‘15000 kids and counting’.)

I agree with above posters that, after a number of births, it would be possible to be very prepared and clean up the majority of mess after if straightforward. There’s also plenty of home birth and free birth advice available with details on what to do.

Equally, I think it’s interesting CM mentioned the (lack of) bath. I’d imagine any intelligent mother with SS involvement would have known to run away with a baby risked police becoming involved, just how much that would influence all their recorded interactions (eg. Text, email) with an assumption they have the chance of being analysed later on must be a strong consideration.

I do find this case unusual, even though (JMOO) so many factors appear to tie in commonly to other child protection related cases.

 

[dotr]

Hello, new here but a long time reader, so apologies for any mistakes.

I’d doubt New Age traveller sites were a possibility because I think they were terrified of being found. Equally, the rural Welsh are chatty - even to New Age travellers - and those communities often chat to locals, even if keeping their distance.

Something I think is key and might not be fully understood by some is that the bar for removing children from families is set very high. Families have to consistently demonstrate they won’t make changes and are putting their children’s safety at risk. This is more than low level neglect or one episode of suspected violence. I’m an adoptee and involved in the UK adoption community and children who have been removed have gone through sustained periods of trauma where their needs have not been met or they’ve been subjected to horrific abuse (often multiple times). I’m not saying CM or MG did any of these things because so many situations are possible, but I am saying ‘forced’ adoptions are ‘forced’ to protect children from severely dangerous situations, give them a supportive family (usually trained in therapeutic parenting techniques to aid trauma recovery) and not because parents are deemed permanently ‘unfit to breed’ at all. Parents do have the chance to parent again if they make long term significant changes and are usually given support and opportunities to do so. There are still assessments for unborn children before a removal order is granted (the child has to be born for the actual legal order to be made, iirc). There are also charities like Pause, who work with birth mums to encourage them to learn about themselves and take time to address their own needs before having another child, who (after they’ve worked through their issues) they are so much more likely to keep. At the moment, SS is underfunded and case loads are high, so that support isn’t as available as it was. However, the aim is always to keep the family together and it’s the most extreme cases where that stops being possible.

Equally, a very small number of children are still relinquished, but that’s very rare in the modern world.

It can be a cycle though: parents have issues and the support fails and parents aren’t able to make changes in time, they have another child and are increasingly afraid to have them taken, but are equally still not able to address their own difficulties, services respond in certain ways because of their history and it drives them deeper into the cycle of hiding issues and the child is even more at risk. It doesn’t mean the system is entirely wrong or the child wasn’t at risk in the first place, but it’s still a terrifying situation for almost any parent to be in, whether they’re able to appropriately care for their children or not. I’m

(Side note: Some good documentaries outlining the types of issues parents might face and the process are ‘Protecting our Children’, where one of the couples included lived in a tent and were homeless and ‘15000 kids and counting’.)

I agree with above posters that, after a number of births, it would be possible to be very prepared and clean up the majority of mess after if straightforward. There’s also plenty of home birth and free birth advice available with details on what to do.

Equally, I think it’s interesting CM mentioned the (lack of) bath. I’d imagine any intelligent mother with SS involvement would have known to run away with a baby risked police becoming involved, just how much that would influence all their recorded interactions (eg. Text, email) with an assumption they have the chance of being analysed later on must be a strong consideration.

I do find this case unusual, even though (JMOO) so many factors appear to tie in commonly to other child protection related cases.

Welcome to Ws @ShadowPuppet, thanks for your very insightful post!

 

[DSleuth]

MOO
I don’t think CM gave birth in the cottage, I think the prosecution must have evidence to think she gave birth later than this. What that evidence is I don’t know, but the prosecution have all the evidence so they must have good grounds for their assertion. I think the evidence might be related to the placenta or something else found in the car and being able to work it out from that. The prosecution also mention “burner phones” found in the car- I’m sure more about them will come out but maybe there’s something significant on one (or more) of them.

I wonder if they either planned to have the baby in the (non existent) bath in the cottage and left earlier than planned because CM went into labour and because of the lack of bath there. Or they planned to stay in the cottage before the baby was born and they left because CM went into labour and for some reason (?being seen with a baby by the neighbours) they wanted to avoid giving birth in the cottage.

I also think that CM is going to spin her narrative around the the facts in a way to put her in the best possible light and to look as “responsible” as possible so that she can use a tragic accident as her defence. Hence why she claims to have given birth in the cottage (rather than the car/tent etc) why she claims the baby died much earlier than the prosecution say she did (so she can claim that when the baby seen by witnesses with no hat/socks/blanket she had already died) and why she says they carried Victoria around with them for a long time when she was dead so that they could give her a proper burial/autopsy. Certainly if the latter part of that was true she’d have told the police where Victoria was rather than refused to and made a the police spend days searching for her.

All MOO.

(Edited to remove typos)

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Welcome to Ws @ShadowPuppet, thanks for your very insightful post!

Thank you, dotr

 

[rockthecasbah]

I wonder if we should be considering that they were living on New Age Traveller sites when in Wales. It's a popular destination for new agers and the community is known for love of drugs, parties and spiritual/natural woo and also deep suspicion of authorities. Also, explains the festival style tent and campervan, and the apparent lack of friends to call on - these are not people that would come forward to authorities either.

Festival style tent just means a small cheap tent, as in not one you would use for serious hiking etc as poor quality. I think they just really really don't care about their living conditions