UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Greystreaks]

I’m no expert but they don’t look like meth heads in their mugshots or in the pics with their older kids. No sores on face, sunken eyes etc. Well at least she doesn’t (no photos of him apart from mugshots!).

 

[Alyce]

RSBM

haven't read that any of the witnesses actually saw the baby alive or heard her. The description of her having a 'wobbly head' with no further detail (looking, awake, asleep, gurgling, crying, moving) does not suggest normality to me, I recall one report up thread that 'they' had a meal in a restaurant in Brick Lane (London) sometime after the car-fire, but were 'they' two or three people? was the baby present with them for a meal out?

Taxi drivers used by the couple in the first few days after they went missing said they had heard noises coming from a baby.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: police fear baby may have come to harm

Couple being held on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter have yet to tell police location of infant

www.theguardian.com

The child has never been seen on TV but two taxi drivers have said they saw the baby moving and crying;

EXCLUSIVE: CCTV shows Constance Marten and Mark Gordon before arrest

The couple were heard having a row as they walked along Stanmer Villas at just before 9.30pm last night, five minutes before they were held, exclusive footage obtained by MailOnline shows.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Obergine]

I'm just reading at the moment ,not a expert on cat litter but Googling images have shown these to be just that .
Beyond my imagination to think of using it for the purpose suggested it might have been .

One is silica cat litter the other rocks of crack (some twisted into plastic I think but you get the idea os size, shape and texture).

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I’m no expert but they don’t look like meth heads in their mugshots or in the pics with their older kids. No sores on face, sunken eyes etc. Well at least she doesn’t (no photos of him apart from mugshots!).

I agree with this. Habitual meth use results in rapid weight loss and usually a lot of sores on the skin (because meth is an exceptionally toxic product) and crack not much better.

Plus with both, usually people get into binges where they can't stop until they've spent their last penny and at this point they have burns on their faces and wounds on their lips. People rapidly lose teeth, get scars and burns on their faces and hands, also terrible things like obsessive picking and scratching can wear big holes in their skin or hair pulling, some people even pull their own teeth out.

Also they'd have left a lot of drug paraphernalia and detritus IMO and be acting way more unusual and erratic, unless for some reason the prosecution has agreed to 'not mention' addiction and just call it a 'lifestyle', I honestly don't see how that could be legally possible. I suspect the lifestyle they refer is being on the run in some folie a deux delusion driven by the one of them who is the most persuasive (IMO CM).

JMO MOO

 

[Waffle]

If CM gave birth in the cottage, wouldn't they utilise a bath or stand in shower? Posts are speculating that she gave birth on the bed (due to the sheets being washed), but that may not be the case? Just musing. Maybe she gave birth in the bathroom, and the stains on the floor was pee or amniotic fluid/cervical mucous (plug). Women bleed for weeks after delivering, so if she went to bed after the birth, that could explain the laundry. MOO.

I don't think she gave birth on the bed either, more likely the floor if in the cottage - MOO

Do you think they may have been able to tell an approximate birth date by the condition of the placenta? CM says Christmas Eve but the prosecution says not before the 28th, and I did wonder if they could tell anything from the state of the placenta and how much it had started to decompose. Surely it would have been in a pretty disgusting state after 11 days being carried around? And as you said, the smell must have been pretty rancid!.

Thankyou for your insight here, it's very helpful

Honestly I have no idea, there are so many factors with decomp rate... if they knew how it had been stored then it would be a lot easier. For example if it had been put in the fridge or freezer in the cottage before leaving and then in a cold car it would have been in a lot better condition than if it was in the towel in a heated house /car. I assume it can't have been too badly decomposed if they could tell it was a placenta straight away

 

[JTT]

I agree with this. Habitual meth use results in rapid weight loss and usually a lot of sores on the skin (because meth is an exceptionally toxic product) and crack not much better.

Plus with both, usually people get into binges where they can't stop until they've spent their last penny and at this point they have burns on their faces and wounds on their lips. People rapidly lose teeth, get scars and burns on their faces and hands, also terrible things like obsessive picking and scratching can wear big holes in their skin or hair pulling, some people even pull their own teeth out.

Also they'd have left a lot of drug paraphernalia and detritus IMO and be acting way more unusual and erratic, unless for some reason the prosecution has agreed to 'not mention' addiction and just call it a 'lifestyle', I honestly don't see how that could be legally possible. I suspect the lifestyle they refer is being on the run in some folie a deux delusion driven by the one of them who is the most persuasive (IMO CM).

JMO MOO

What would an example of the delusional beliefs be in that scenario? They really did have hundreds of police after them and the ports being watched in case they tried to leave the country. It's unlikely they went on the run because they liked the lifestyle. That doesn't seem to be what CM's mum thinks either, to judge from her open letter: "I know that you want to keep your precious new-born child at all costs." Agreed that if they were druggies and the prosecution knew about it, the prosecution would be all over it, and probably the media would have been too - cf. how they kept referring before the trial to MG's rape conviction from ~35 years ago. Instead we get them being called mucky in the way they live.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

 

[Waffle]

Some further thoughts about drugs.
From a look around the internet I've noted the following:
For Meth, the ingredients can be obtained here and there e.g.
ammonia (urine) acetone (nail polish) anti-freeze, iodine, Kitty litter,
over the counter medications, camping fuel, plastic bottles etc.
the US sites say it is commonly made in sheds, hotel rooms and even in cars. The vapours produced are dangerously toxic, especially to children and very flammable. Co- incidentally MG was 20 years? in a US prison.
I also cannot imagine anyone who takes drugs leaving any behind anywhere hurry or not.

I haven't read that any of the witnesses actually saw the baby alive or heard her. The description of her having a 'wobbly head' with no further detail (looking, awake, asleep, gurgling, crying, moving) does not suggest normality to me, I recall one report up thread that 'they' had a meal in a restaurant in Brick Lane (London) sometime after the car-fire, but were 'they' two or three people? was the baby present with them for a meal out?

I also wonder about the purchase and then discarding of the pram or push-chair? After the baby had died, whenever that was, it would be foolish to put her into it, because someone might notice whereas by holding onto her closely and showing either nothing or just her head....?
Not many people would suspect a passing stranger to be carrying a dead baby.
I don't think the court has suggested that the £19K+ paid into CM's account was spent, but that it was paid into her account during the time of these events, CM may have has lots more money than that, but accessing it would reveal her whereabouts. I assume the police would have a picture of when and how she used her account/s.

I think they did not buy a campervan to stay in as a poster has queried, because that would be more easily traceable by its registration number than the series of hotel rooms, b and b and tents that they chose instead. They had previous experience, as reported, of living in a camper van so presumably had considered this. So they were really trying to be untraceable, they had two cars in quick succession.

Also, it can be really difficult living in a campervan unnoticed in the UK. I think a lot of countries have more lax rules about this (or a lot more places to park up away from prying eyes). In built up places like London you have very little options other than parking on the road - which many are permit holders only or have parking restrictions, or in car parks, where they often close overnight or all the other cars leave at night so you are VERY conspicuous. There are also cameras EVERYWHERE on motorists for things like congestion charge, ULEZ, school streets etc as well as general speed cameras. Although I'm not sure if these can be used to flag up vehicles that are being searched for?

 

[JTT]

Do you think they may have been able to tell an approximate birth date by the condition of the placenta? CM says Christmas Eve but the prosecution says not before the 28th, and I did wonder if they could tell anything from the state of the placenta and how much it had started to decompose. Surely it would have been in a pretty disgusting state after 11 days being carried around? And as you said, the smell must have been pretty rancid!.

Thankyou for your insight here, it's very helpful

I wonder why the prosecution say not before the 28th - which given that they left the cottage on that date probably means not there - and what they will try to show from it. Is it that she didn't give birth in a house? If she did, I would expect the defence to offer an explanation for some of those stains and marks, e.g. where her waters broke, etc., and the prosecution is going to have to put it to her "You're lying, aren't you"...what a case! The prosecution definitely need a solid alternative scenario they can persuade the jury of IMO. Going by the little we know at this stage, if the trial reaches the second half I would say that from a defence POV she should probably take the stand rather than elect not to. JMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

What would an example of the delusional beliefs be in that scenario? They really did have hundreds of police after them and the ports being watched in case they tried to leave the country. It's unlikely they went on the run because they liked the lifestyle. That doesn't seem to be what CM's mum thinks either, to judge from her open letter: "I know that you want to keep your precious new-born child at all costs." Agreed that if they were druggies and the prosecution knew about it, the prosecution would be all over it, and probably the media would have been too - cf. how they kept referring before the trial to MG's rape conviction from ~35 years ago. Instead we get them being called mucky in the way they live.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

JMO MOO

I don't know if you're in the UK but I'm speaking along the lines of something similar to the 'Canoe Man' scenario, excellently portrayed in a dramatisation free to watch on ITVX 'The Thief, His Wife and the Canoe'.

Where one dominant personality who has decided on 'the best solution' to the problem (which happens to be utterly bonkers and unrealistic, also very selfish in terms of not considering the rights and feelings of others) has got the other one completely and utterly convinced and both enact it, neither of them telling the truth to a single other living being.

With CM and MG, IMO, 'it's me and you against the world' and 'there is no better place for our newborn baby than with us' and 'we can go on the run, forever, undetected and start a new life' are profoundly delusional beliefs *after* it went wrong. They were far less delusional before it went wrong but even so, completely unrealistic and unlikely, however, also not actual psychosis, if that's what they were thinking.

The fact they were in a little two person unit and not referring to anyone outside of themselves, meant they went unchecked. If that's what's happened, personally I wouldn't call it a lifestyle choice. Unless they've previously been proven to repeatedly choose to live like homeless fugitives - which they may have done, I wouldn't know.

I suspect the statements from both parents were carefully crafted words to lure them back and hand the baby over for safety's sake. Not saying of course the parents wouldn't wish it to also be true, as we don't know how they feel or whether they truly held that hope.

JMO MOO

 

[Doughy]

I’m no expert but they don’t look like meth heads in their mugshots or in the pics with their older kids. No sores on face, sunken eyes etc. Well at least she doesn’t (no photos of him apart from mugshots!).

Just because you sell it, doesn't mean you take it....

A big pile of rocks could come in incredibly handy if you wanted to offer something to stay at a crack-den where no-one would ever ring the police....

 

[Doughy]

reported

Reported as in he had to report in due to his licence conditions.

 

[Nikynoo]

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>
Could the white powder be baby formula?

 

[Telltale]

Just for context. Considering Gordon's background, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he used and learnt to make Meth.

However, there is no meth epidemic in the UK. It's not a common drug. The place you see it most is... Gay sex parties among the middle/upper class LGBT crowd in London as a upper, (yes really.)

It's very niche, certainly not the drug of choice for the poor and disenfranchised. - idk maybe they saw what it did to America but they ain't interested. As its own thing most drug dealers don't even bother with it. That's just not the market. There a little bit of crack around granted, but that's not all that big either.

The biggest batch of class A addicts are the aging heroin users. It's all about the coke, weed, ketemin, MDMA, heroin, speed and a few synthetics. The stimulus market is already well serviced I guess.

Why People in the UK Don't Use Meth

The drug is pervasive in the United States. Why hasn't it gained a foothold in Britain?

www.vice.com

 

[JennieM]

Could the white powder be baby formula?

Flour? not that I can imagine them baking ….

 

[JTT]

Reported as in he had to report in due to his licence conditions.

That sounds right. Normal seems to be annually according to this page.

Advice for people on the Sex Offender Register

Explore our advice for people on the sex offender register. Speak confidentially to one of our advisors. See more for information and guides.

www.nacro.org.uk

Surely she didn't go into the police station with him, at 9 months pregnant or a bit less if the birth was premature?

I wonder how many sexual offences this kind of requirement deters when the man last committed a known albeit very brutal offence 34 years before and has been out of prison for 14 years. (Not that I am against it - just wondering how effective it is.)

 

[JennieM]

Some further thoughts about drugs.
From a look around the internet I've noted the following:
For Meth, the ingredients can be obtained here and there e.g.
ammonia (urine) acetone (nail polish) anti-freeze, iodine, Kitty litter,
over the counter medications, camping fuel, plastic bottles etc.
the US sites say it is commonly made in sheds, hotel rooms and even in cars. The vapours produced are dangerously toxic, especially to children and very flammable. Co- incidentally MG was 20 years? in a US prison.
I also cannot imagine anyone who takes drugs leaving any behind anywhere hurry or not.

I haven't read that any of the witnesses actually saw the baby alive or heard her. The description of her having a 'wobbly head' with no further detail (looking, awake, asleep, gurgling, crying, moving) does not suggest normality to me, I recall one report up thread that 'they' had a meal in a restaurant in Brick Lane (London) sometime after the car-fire, but were 'they' two or three people? was the baby present with them for a meal out?

I also wonder about the purchase and then discarding of the pram or push-chair? After the baby had died, whenever that was, it would be foolish to put her into it, because someone might notice whereas by holding onto her closely and showing either nothing or just her head....?
Not many people would suspect a passing stranger to be carrying a dead baby.
I don't think the court has suggested that the £19K+ paid into CM's account was spent, but that it was paid into her account during the time of these events, CM may have has lots more money than that, but accessing it would reveal her whereabouts. I assume the police would have a picture of when and how she used her account/s.

I think they did not buy a campervan to stay in as a poster has queried, because that would be more easily traceable by its registration number than the series of hotel rooms, b and b and tents that they chose instead. They had previous experience, as reported, of living in a camper van so presumably had considered this. So they were really trying to be untraceable, they had two cars in quick succession.

Really good point about the pram. It would draw attention, people coming closer to take a look and talk about the baby.

There is the issue of the smell though.

It’s all so grim just thinking about it.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Just for context. Considering Gordon's background, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he used and learnt to make Meth.

However, there is no meth epidemic in the UK. It's not a common drug. The place you see it most is... Gay sex parties among the middle/upper class LGBT crowd in London as a upper, (yes really.)

It's very niche, certainly not the drug of choice for the poor and disenfranchised. - idk maybe they saw what it did to America but they ain't interested. As its own thing most drug dealers don't even bother with it. That's just not the market. There a little bit of crack around granted, but that's not all that big either.

The biggest batch of class A addicts are the aging heroin users. It's all about the coke, weed, ketemin, MDMA, heroin, speed and a few synthetics. The stimulus market is already well serviced I guess.

Why People in the UK Don't Use Meth

The drug is pervasive in the United States. Why hasn't it gained a foothold in Britain?

www.vice.com

Meth is totally out of control in the UK gay male club scene but I agree that's niche.
It's not in general use like in the USA or Australia / NZ. Also in the UK it's not easy to have a lab and get away with it.

Crack and heroin are still big. To me, if I were to speculate, I say CM and MG best fit the profile of aged long term 'functioning' heroin addicts but they don't look like they are physically and there's been zero reports of this so that's a conundrum. Let's see if something comes out in court.

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Flour? not that I can imagine them baking ….

Baking soda is used in 'freebasing' powder cocaine into smoke-able crack.

Not saying they were doing that either.

 

[OrangeCash]

The cat litter might turn out to be irrelevant, I have no idea honestly. It just puzzled me because it's not the type of thing to be provided by the host in an airbnb/holiday rental etc. because they don't typically cater for cat owners to bring their cats do they. So if it wasn't in the rented property already, that means CM and MG bought it. It's an odd thing to buy without a use for it. It's bulky and heavy, you don't buy it by accident. But it could just be one of those random irrelevant details, who knows. Maybe it will become apparent later on

MOO

 

[JennieM]

Baking soda is used in 'freebasing' powder cocaine into smoke-able crack.

Not saying they were doing that either.

Wow, thank you, I didn’t know that. Baking soda would make more sense than flour then.