UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[JTT]

I don't think she gave birth in the cottage. There's no mention of any blood or fluids from the landlady when she went back there. No way they managed a hole birth without staining any towel, sheet, mattress, flooring, or meticulously cleaned up all trace. Then proceeded to re-trash the cottage in the next couple of days and leave.

It seems they have very poor hygiene and trash every place they live. Even if they intended to conceal it, I can't see them being so thorough thorough there is nothing to indicate it and they got rid of all resulting rubbish.

I think they want to say she was born there because it was the 'nicest' and most stable environment they'd been staying in around that time. They are trying to keep her lifetime to when they were still staying inside. It makes it somewhat easier for them to argue she didn't die of negligence and neglect due to her living conditions if she didn't die in a tent.

Where do you think Victoria was born then, bearing in mind that her birth must have taken place before her parents left the burning car on the M61 in which a placenta was found?

Another question is where and when the prosecution will say she was born, or whether they will even present a narrative on that score. They are saying they dispute the defence position (at least stated to the police, not yet in actual defence) that she was born on 24 December. No alternative date has been put forward, though, even an approximate one. But it's not the defence that has brought a case or is required to bring any evidence if it chooses not to. It's the prosecution. It's going to be interesting to see what evidence they can bring to support various of the statements made in the prosecution opening speech - poor hygiene, Lidl, and Travelodge, or no poor hygiene, Lidl, and Travelodge.

 

[HollyHunter9]

A lot of details coming out still not making a lot of sense -

• They had enough money to have two separate cars while on the run (the first one a suzuki broke down & the second a Peugeot caught fire) why did they not just get a campervan or caravan so they had somewhere warm, waterproof, with gas or electric and even possibly running water but meant they could still move around freely as they wished?

• Why was there cat litter in the holiday cottage? They quite clearly did not have a cat.

• If she bought petrol on 12th Jan for possible cremation that suggests the baby had sadly died by that date - so why was she carrying a baby in her coat on 19th February (the sighting with wobbly head) surely it would have already started to decompose by that time?

• If they were so desperate to keep the baby to go to these extreme measures why was a previous baby (the 4th I believe) abandoned in a hospital?

None of their decisions are rational, even early on before they were high profile in media and they were certainly were not in the best interests of the baby. If they wanted to live off grid there are ways to do it and in a way that would not put the children at great risk or harm or else there wouldn't be such thing as the travelling communities. They just seem completely incapable of caring and looking after a child. If when the baby was seen with a wobbly head it was still alive why on earth did it have no hat or even socks on? They'd been to Argos and bought a pram, tent & pillows but seem to not think of the very basics likes clothes or a hat? blankets? Also (my own speculation) - if they had not eaten for weeks this would severely affect CM milk supply if she was breastfeeding but there's no mention of buying formula milk either.

Really struggling to get my head around their thinking.

*Edited to add I mean no disrespect to travelling communities but just trying to give an example that it is possible to bring up children outside of the usual society structure and while moving around and not have SS remove the children.

 

[Alyce]

Hi all - long time since I've been on here! So a lot of previous discussion has proved true! It seems that the suspected baby no. 4 was not stillborn though and is also in care now - I hope with a good family and together with siblings <3. My suspicion that a 'conspirituality' issue is also looking highly likely.

I see people have already been asking about the kitty litter (?!) and mess on the hob and whether they were drug related. 19k is a lot to burn through staying staying in Travelodges - even with a few mega taxi rides.

The powder on the hob to my mind could be from cooking crack - which I believe is relatively simple - and crack itself can look like certain brands of kitty litter to the unknowing eye. I also saw that kitty litter can be used to cook meth but that seems to my mind a very complex undertaking in a holiday home.

But surely this would have been described as such by the prosecution...?

Of course, the owners could have cleared away the evidence not realising what it was and it has since not been able to prove if there were drugs there or, if that was established, link it to the couple.

Apologies if I have covered old ground - I have some catching up to do. It's going to be an interesting few weeks.

that sounds like a very good explanation for the *kitty litter*



welcome back, good to see you on here

 

[Obergine]

I have caught up now and was interested to see these posts about TB Joshua and Acting School cults/abuse:

• TB Joshua: ‘We thought it was heaven but then terrible things happened’
• 'I was forced to smell soiled underwear': Inside the culture of abuse at the UK's top drama schools

I'd picked up on the former and its timing and wondered if it was part of a well-funded PR campaign led by CM's family. The second article makes me more sure of this.

The article on the reliance on legal aid kind of refutes that (Aristocrat who 'killed baby' has taxpayer-funded defence after trust fund fails) unless you see this as a family making a canny decision to get what can be funded by the taxpayer funded and saving their own money for what can't - rich people are rich for a reason!

 

[Waffle]

Having attended many births over the years, from homebirths including outdoors in a heated pool to instrumental and surgical births on a high risk labour ward and everything in between, there really is no telling what the state of the room was in afterwards, if she did in fact give birth there. It could have looked back to normal (or their version of 'normal') with just some towels or a bed sheet to wipe the mess. Or it could have looked like a crime scene.

Personally my view upon reading how the cottage was left, and the timing, was immediately suspicion that she gave birth there. Not necessarily the mess, as that seems to be how they generally leave places, but the washed bedsheet, the cat litter, the ?string, the ?ibuprofen etc. MOO, I may very well be completely wrong.

Also someone said above that a blood stain would be obvious. Definitely not when it comes to birth, blood mixed with amniotic fluid could be anything from water slightly tinged pink, to watery red, to more blood like.

I'm new to this, so I hope you all don't mind me asking - will they test the stain to see if it's definitely wine? Will they test the urine in the bathroom to see if it's definitely or solely urine? If the string someone mentioned above is dirty will it or can it be tested? My first thought was that it could have been used to tie the cord off. If the sheet was used to birth on or clean up and was washed properly I doubt it would show anything - but happy to be corrected if wrong

 

[JTT]

Regarding the state in which they left the cottage in Haltwhistle, the Daily Express is calling it not only "disgusting" but also "horrible" and even "horrifying".

Constance Marten and lover left 'urine on filthy holiday home floor' when on run

The couple are accused of killing their newborn baby and currently on trial at the Old Bailey.

www.express.co.uk

"There were numerous empty water bottles around the bedroom floor".

Owner Maria Richardson's statement was read out, which indicates it was accepted by the defence. If they'd wanted to contest anything in it, they'd have required Ms Richardson to take the stand.

Is that a chess piece (a white queen) in the photo with the zigzaggy rug?

 

[guiser]

Having attended many births over the years, from homebirths including outdoors in a heated pool to instrumental and surgical births on a high risk labour ward and everything in between, there really is no telling what the state of the room was in afterwards, if she did in fact give birth there. It could have looked back to normal (or their version of 'normal') with just some towels or a bed sheet to wipe the mess. Or it could have looked like a crime scene.

Personally my view upon reading how the cottage was left, and the timing, was immediately suspicion that she gave birth there. Not necessarily the mess, as that seems to be how they generally leave places, but the washed bedsheet, the cat litter, the ?string, the ?ibuprofen etc. MOO, I may very well be completely wrong.

Also someone said above that a blood stain would be obvious. Definitely not when it comes to birth, blood mixed with amniotic fluid could be anything from water slightly tinged pink, to watery red, to more blood like.

I'm new to this, so I hope you all don't mind me asking - will they test the stain to see if it's definitely wine? Will they test the urine in the bathroom to see if it's definitely or solely urine? If the string someone mentioned above is dirty will it or can it be tested? My first thought was that it could have been used to tie the cord off. If the sheet was used to birth on or clean up and was washed properly I doubt it would show anything - but happy to be corrected if wrong

I guess the owner just shrugged and cleaned up ready for the next letting because at that stage, the alarm hadn't been raised about a missing couple with a newborn so any 'evidence' from the cottage will understandably be long gone.

 

[JTT]

I have caught up now and was interested to see these posts about TB Joshua and Acting School cults/abuse:

• TB Joshua: ‘We thought it was heaven but then terrible things happened’
• 'I was forced to smell soiled underwear': Inside the culture of abuse at the UK's top drama schools

I'd picked up on the former and its timing and wondered if it was part of a well-funded PR campaign led by CM's family. The second article makes me more sure of this.

The article on the reliance on legal aid kind of refutes that (Aristocrat who 'killed baby' has taxpayer-funded defence after trust fund fails) unless you see this as a family making a canny decision to get what can be funded by the taxpayer funded and saving their own money for what can't - rich people are rich for a reason!

The spin on the TB Joshua story was unlikely to have been coincidence, and probably the same is true of the timing. (Which isn't unusual for exclusive documentaries on the telly.) It may not have been family behind it, though. Also it may not have worked. Not sure it would influence potential jurors to be more sympathetic. As for mitigation, that's not up to jurors.

Bear in mind that events in the legal arena over the past several months need not have followed the exact path that they did.

As for the drama schools story, has CM been mentioned in any of the write-ups?

 

[JTT]

More on the MG police station visit in Sheffield on 19 December:

1. "Gordon reported to a police station in Sheffield on December 19, 2022" (BBM - but saying "reported" rather than simply that he went there could be case of journalism)

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

2. "South Yorkshire police recorded that Marten might be pregnant and raised an alert on December 19, 2022, the Old Bailey was told."

Constance Marten ‘took £20,000 cash on the run before baby died’

Aristocrat and boyfriend Mark Gordon criss-crossed Britain to avoid new daughter being taken into care ‘then let her die in freezing and squalid surroundings’

www.thetimes.co.uk

That's interesting.

 

[HollyHunter9]

that sounds like a very good explanation for the *kitty litter*



welcome back, good to see you on here

Thankyou for highlighting this post about the kitty litter, I must've missed it but it does help explain and make more sense that cottage owner was probably unaware of what it actually was. With this explanation I wonder if the numerous bottles of water were what they used to take the drugs (if that was what they were doing) this is again is my pure speculation.

 

[Obergine]

Regarding the state in which they left the cottage in Haltwhistle, the Daily Express is calling it not only "disgusting" but also "horrible" and even "horrifying".

Constance Marten and lover left 'urine on filthy holiday home floor' when on run

The couple are accused of killing their newborn baby and currently on trial at the Old Bailey.

www.express.co.uk

"There were numerous empty water bottles around the bedroom floor".

Owner Maria Richardson's statement was read out, which indicates it was accepted by the defence. If they'd wanted to contest anything in it, they'd have required Ms Richardson to take the stand.

Is that a chess piece (a white queen) in the photo with the zigzaggy rug?

True and good points. I was thinking of the court of public opinion rather than the jurors but only because I missed that angle. Weight of public opinion may hold more sway come sentencing.

 

[Obergine]

Thankyou for highlighting this post about the kitty litter, I must've missed it but it does help explain and make more sense that cottage owner was probably unaware of what it actually was. With this explanation I wonder if the numerous bottles of water were what they used to take the drugs (if that was what they were doing) this is again is my pure speculation.

On the other hand I know that addicts would not leave a speck of smokable rock - so this remains only one potential explanation. I had the water bottles down as being about toxic tap water, which is a common belief among natural health advocates, who worry about the (minute) levels of fluoride and chlorine. It also helps to have lots of water to hand when giving birth.

I know lots of natural health types and it has always amused me how many make an exception for fun chemicals... and also how many have taken psychedelic drugs and lost themselves to 'conspirituality'.

 

[HollyHunter9]

On the other hand I know that addicts would not leave a speck of smokable rock - so this remains only one potential explanation. I had the water bottles down as being about toxic tap water, which is a common belief among natural health advocates, who worry about the (minute) levels of fluoride and chlorine. It also helps to have lots of water to hand when giving birth.

I know lots of natural health types and it has always amused me how many make an exception for fun chemicals... and also how many have taken psychedelic drugs and lost themselves to 'conspirituality'.

Maybe they left in a hurry? Perhaps they thought the sounds of her giving birth would alert police and authorities and so as soon as she was born they threw the sheets in the machine and made a run for it?

Again pure speculation on my part but I also wonder if drugs were taken during pregnancy then it's possible the baby may have been born addicted. Babies born with an addiction usually need a lot of hospital support to be weaned off - i wonder if post birth withdrawal also contributed to the childs passing.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I had an elected home birth 25 years ago with my daughter.
It certainly didn’t look like a crime scene !
Admittedly I had a midwife with me but still, CM had given birth 4 times previously (I think )
I’m leaning towards her not giving birth in the cottage though.
JMO

My fist homebirth was also 25 years ago, but that one was planned. I remember the midwife telling us to stock up on newspaper (we had bloody tons of it, didn't use a single sheet ) and to buy a cheap shower curtain to save the furniture or carpet depending on where we ended up.
That time you'd have no visible clue that there had been a birth, but the second time 11 years ago the baby came so quickly once contractions started that we wouldn't have made it to the hospital and he was born about 10 minutes after the ambulance arrived, they didn't carry the injection to expel the placenta and I started hemorrhaging, hence the crime scene!.

As another poster said upthread, all births are different, mine have all been interesting

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Maybe they left in a hurry? Perhaps they thought the sounds of her giving birth would alert police and authorities and so as soon as she was born they threw the sheets in the machine and made a run for it?

Again pure speculation on my part but I also wonder if drugs were taken during pregnancy then it's possible the baby may have been born addicted. Babies born with an addiction usually need a lot of hospital support to be weaned off - i wonder if post birth withdrawal also contributed to the childs passing.

I wondered about drug dependency, but I would expect that anyone who was near them would have heard the heartbreaking crying that comes with withdrawal in babies and all the witnesses we have heard from have said they never heard the baby. I wonder if CM breastfeeding at first would have helped with withdrawal if she was using?.

I wondered about the placenta too, if they went in for the leaving it attached until it came away naturally? I would think she wouldn't admit to this of she wanted the police to believe the baby was born on Christmas Eve?.

 

[Telltale]

I think, considering their extensive contact with social services, if drugs were a factor it would have come up by now.

Meth, crack and cooking is not common in the UK. The meth market in particular is near non-existant. Of course Gordon spent a few decades in an American prison, so he could have brought the habit and skillset back with him. However, the few people who knew him who have said anything seem to think he was straight laced. In fact he might have got Marten off any casual drug use.

If they had been using hard drugs in the few months before their arrest it would be in detectable their hair. Might even be detectable in Victoria, maybe.

Unusual as it is in a case like this I don't actually thing drugs played a role. Could easily be wrong on that though.

As for the birth, I'll happily defer to experience on the mess it would make and how recognisable it would be. Though, if it is entirely plausible, I don't know why the prosecution would be dead set on disputing it. If the baby was born in the BnB or someplace else with zero medical care seems secondary to proving it being dragged about all over the place in the dead of winter.

It seems like they have a few people who 'didn't see a baby in the days after Christmas. Seems weak, even with winter clothing, you would think if she was 8/9 months pregnant there would be some witness or some CCTV where you could see if she's about to pop or not.

Second possibility was the back of the car. I feel like I heard fireman found blood and a body part (the placenta) on the back seat. Of course that could mean a whole range of things and have gotten bigger/lost context in the telling. Could mean ' placenta wrapped in a plastic bag, some evidence she leaked though her pads' or it could mean plopped in the back footwell and the seats were soaked through.

 

[Waffle]

I guess the owner just shrugged and cleaned up ready for the next letting because at that stage, the alarm hadn't been raised about a missing couple with a newborn so any 'evidence' from the cottage will understandably be long gone.

Yes I realised after writing that, apologies!

I wondered about drug dependency, but I would expect that anyone who was near them would have heard the heartbreaking crying that comes with withdrawal in babies and all the witnesses we have heard from have said they never heard the baby. I wonder if CM breastfeeding at first would have helped with withdrawal if she was using?.

I wondered about the placenta too, if they went in for the leaving it attached until it came away naturally? I would think she wouldn't admit to this of she wanted the police to believe the baby was born on Christmas Eve?.

I personally only have experience with opioids but most of the babies with NAS really, really struggled with feeding at first - particularly breastfeeding. Most were syringe and cup fed for a while. The drugs do pass through into breastmilk but not enough to prevent withdrawal and the awful high pitched crying that accompanies. Obviously we don't know when this baby was born and how old she was when witnesses saw her, but if there are issues feeding and a baby isn't getting the amount of milk required they can become quite drowsy, lethargic etc eventually. Core temp would also impact that and lead to a baby being very quiet and still if they were cold as well as malnourished. MOO and commenting in general not specifically about this baby.

The placenta crossed my mind also, however I'm not sure they would risk going out and about like that. It would be quite big and bulky to carry around with the baby attached, might draw attention, and would begin to smell unless they followed certain recommendations with cleaning and salt etc which from their lifestyle it doesn't seem likely. Would be interesting to see the condition of the placenta and cord

 

[Nikynoo]

I agree. I think that there are mental health issues is abundantly clear. But the way she comes across in that transcript makes her sound stupid or very young imho, and I think we do know that she's neither of those.

I can't make sense of it. They'd been recognised, or thought they had, and thought the best thing to do would be to sleep rough until they could "find a house"? I mean, that's not a thing really, is it. You don't just "find" a house, especially not once you're in the position these two were in by then. Given a psychiatric assessment has apparently found her fit to stand trial, I'm just surprised by how tenuous her grasp on reality appears to be in that interview.

Would it not depend on when she was interviewed? Bearing in mind, they had been living outside and hunting around for food, perhaps that had an effect on what was said.

 

[dalsglen]

The photo of the brown unit/kitchen worktop? sure looks like the remnants of a line of coke to me.

 

[JumpingFrog]

If CM gave birth in the cottage, wouldn't they utilise a bath or stand in shower? Posts are speculating that she gave birth on the bed (due to the sheets being washed), but that may not be the case? Just musing. Maybe she gave birth in the bathroom, and the stains on the floor was pee or amniotic fluid/cervical mucous (plug). Women bleed for weeks after delivering, so if she went to bed after the birth, that could explain the laundry. MOO.