In other cases where it is the parents on remand for a death they haven't been allowed. Even little Arthur's mum wasn't allowed leave for his funeral despite it not being her and being in prison for a completely different crime.I suppose that's one way to meet your daughter's partner's family.
Might be a bit awkward...
I wonder if CM and MG will be allowed to attend the funeral. They'll still be on remand and so innocent until proven guilty, but it may not pass the undefined "decency" test referenced here
Leave to visit dying relatives or attend a funeral
One of the greatest hardships being in prison is missing out on significant family moments, and the most difficult of these can be the passing and funeral of a loved one. We receive occasional cont…insidetime.org
UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4
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Observe_dont_Absorb
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Observe_dont_Absorb
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Does anyone know what happens if a cause of death is not / cannot be established?
Possible mash up of the words cocktail and birthday?
shinimeggie
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Open verdict and the hope that some further evidence will come to light in due course.
Thank you!! :0)
Sorry. I just read “memorial”.
Lady Gwendoline
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An ex of CM has gone to the Sun, and much like CM's father he seems to view the Nigerian cult as a pivotal moment in her life
Runaway mum Constance Marten was 'groomed' by evil Nigerian sect leader
RUNAWAY mum Constance Marten was “groomed” by a Nigerian sect leader. Marten, 35 — charged with manslaughter alongside lover Mark Gordon, 48 — was sent to a compound near Lagos for six months as a …www.thesun.co.uk
Yesterday her ex Francis Agolo, 44, said: “She would clam up when talking about her time there. I don’t know if something bad happened but it seemed a traumatic experience.”
Marten told Cosmopolitan magazine in 2013 that she was in a dorm with 50 girls watched by armed guards, starved, woken at night for biblical readings and made to call the leader “Daddy”.
She said: “The leader looked me in the eye and said, ‘Your family doesn’t matter anymore. I’m your father now.”
Francis, of Hackney, East London, said: “When I knew Constance, she was caring and loving. It seems very out of character.”
I don't know about anyone else but I can't remember seeing, and nor did a quick search throw up, the referenced Cosmo article. But the Sun isn't known for its accurate reporting.
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That’s an interesting question and I don’t know the answer. But as far as I know, something does have to be entered in the ‘cause of death’ portion of the death certificate - I don’t think it’s ever left blank. JMO
rightsaidfred
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MOO & IANAL
From a criminal point of view the barristers might try and argue that while the standard of care fell short of what is to be expected, and therefore they're guilty of child neglect, concealing the birth of a child etc, they can't prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was the neglect that caused baby Victoria's death. The argument could run along the lines that plenty of model parents have had a SIDS case, and no one can prove it wasn't an unavoidable case of SIDS that would have happened anywhere.
The lawyers are going to have a tough time persuading the jury to acquit them of certain charges like concealing the birth of a child, when there seems to be plenty of evidence against them.
They'll be most keen to get the lowest sentence possible, and being acquitted of manslaughter, or those charges being dropped before trial, will be the biggest plausible win.
When it comes to the inquest, it will only happen after the criminal trial. There are several verdicts that could be reached here - neglect, unlawful killing, open (when there's a lack of evidence to reach any conclusion) or a narrative verdict.
There could also be a Serious Case Review which would focus on the safeguarding of baby Victoria - such as how CM was able to conceal her pregnancy from the authorities so effectively.
kittythehare
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Offences against the Person Act 1861
An Act to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to Offences against the Person.
Revised wording
60Concealing the birth of a child.
If any woman shall be delivered of a child, every person who shall, by any secret disposition of the dead body of the said child, whether such child died before, at, or after its birth, endeavour to conceal the birth thereof, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years, . . . F(Original wording was harsh)
60Concealing the Birth of a Child.
If any Woman shall be delivered of a Child, every Person who shall, by any secret Disposition of the dead Body of the said Child, whether such Child died before, at, or after its Birth, endeavour to conceal the Birth thereof, shall be guilty of a Misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the Discretion of the Court, to be imprisoned for any Term not exceeding Two Years, with or without Hard Labour: Provided that if any Person tried for the Murder of any Child shall be acquitted thereof, it shall be lawful for the Jury by whose Verdict such Person shall be acquitted to find, in case it shall so appear in Evidence, that the Child had recently been born, and that such Person did, by some secret Disposition of the dead Body of such Child, endeavour to conceal the Birth thereof, and thereupon the Court may pass such Sentence as if such Person had been convicted upon an Indictment for the Concealment of the Birth.)There is another possibility depending upon the findings of the Independent Office for Police Conduct.
The Metropolitan Police has referred the case to the Independent Office for Police Conduct because the baby died during a missing persons investigation it was leading.
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon charged with gross negligence manslaughter
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon have been charged after a baby's remains were found in woodland.
www.bbc.com
I'm interested in how they will review it and what, if any recommendations they make for the next aristocrat to go awol..
Just saying.
thanks for informing that thread 3 was pulled couldn't find it anywherePolice are searching for a couple who have gone missing with their newborn baby after their car broke down on a motorway.
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon left the car near junction four of the M61 near Bolton on Thursday night and walked towards Anchor Lane bridge, Greater Manchester Police (GMP) said.
Officers believe Ms Marten had recently given birth and neither she nor her baby had seen medical professionals.
They are appealing for information.
The bridge the couple walked towards links the Highfield and Little Hulton areas.
Couple and newborn baby missing after M61 breakdown - police
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon went missing with their baby after breaking down on the M61.www.bbc.co.uk
Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3 (thread pulled)
Very informative post, thanks.Offences against the Person Act 1861
An Act to consolidate and amend the Statute Law of England and Ireland relating to Offences against the Person.www.legislation.gov.uk
Revised wording
60Concealing the birth of a child.
If any woman shall be delivered of a child, every person who shall, by any secret disposition of the dead body of the said child, whether such child died before, at, or after its birth, endeavour to conceal the birth thereof, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years, . . . F
(Original wording was harsh)
60Concealing the Birth of a Child.
If any Woman shall be delivered of a Child, every Person who shall, by any secret Disposition of the dead Body of the said Child, whether such Child died before, at, or after its Birth, endeavour to conceal the Birth thereof, shall be guilty of a Misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the Discretion of the Court, to be imprisoned for any Term not exceeding Two Years, with or without Hard Labour: Provided that if any Person tried for the Murder of any Child shall be acquitted thereof, it shall be lawful for the Jury by whose Verdict such Person shall be acquitted to find, in case it shall so appear in Evidence, that the Child had recently been born, and that such Person did, by some secret Disposition of the dead Body of such Child, endeavour to conceal the Birth thereof, and thereupon the Court may pass such Sentence as if such Person had been convicted upon an Indictment for the Concealment of the Birth.)
There is another possibility depending upon the findings of the Independent Office for Police Conduct.
The Metropolitan Police has referred the case to the Independent Office for Police Conduct because the baby died during a missing persons investigation it was leading.
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon charged with gross negligence manslaughter
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon have been charged after a baby's remains were found in woodland.
I'm interested in how they will review it and what, if any recommendations they make for the next aristocrat to go awol..
Just saying.
This is really interesting. Did she tell him incorrect info or has he misremembered? They’re still Facebook friends. Not that that means anything!An ex of CM has gone to the Sun, and much like CM's father he seems to view the Nigerian cult as a pivotal moment in her life
Runaway mum Constance Marten was 'groomed' by evil Nigerian sect leader
RUNAWAY mum Constance Marten was “groomed” by a Nigerian sect leader. Marten, 35 — charged with manslaughter alongside lover Mark Gordon, 48 — was sent to a compound near Lagos for six months as a …
Yesterday her ex Francis Agolo, 44, said: “She would clam up when talking about her time there. I don’t know if something bad happened but it seemed a traumatic experience.”
Marten told Cosmopolitan magazine in 2013 that she was in a dorm with 50 girls watched by armed guards, starved, woken at night for biblical readings and made to call the leader “Daddy”.
She said: “The leader looked me in the eye and said, ‘Your family doesn’t matter anymore. I’m your father now.”
Francis, of Hackney, East London, said: “When I knew Constance, she was caring and loving. It seems very out of character.”
I don't know about anyone else but I can't remember seeing, and nor did a quick search throw up, the referenced Cosmo article. But the Sun isn't known for its accurate reporting.
I want to know more about this though - the Starbucks anecdote - did the cult experience really mess her up properly. Did she actually go there once as a teen and once as an adult to follow up and investigate?
There is another possibility depending upon the findings of the Independent Office for Police Conduct.
The Metropolitan Police has referred the case to the Independent Office for Police Conduct because the baby died during a missing persons investigation it was leading.
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon charged with gross negligence manslaughter
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon have been charged after a baby's remains were found in woodland.
I'm interested in how they will review it and what, if any recommendations they make for the next aristocrat to go awol..
Just saying.
The police have said that their self-referral to IPOC was mandatory:
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: found baby ‘may have been dead for weeks’
Police say they have been unable to confirm gender of infant whose remains were found on Wednesday
“Because we believe the death occurred during the course of a missing person investigation, we have made a mandatory referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct. This is standard protocol for such circumstances.”
What's the relevant document?
Chapter 7 covers "Death or Serious Injury" matters, but only when the deceased person was arrested or detained by the police or otherwise had direct or indirect contact with the police that may have caused serious death or injury.
They said "mandatory" though. There must be quite a few cases when they look for someone as a Missing Person and the person dies while the police are looking for them. Do they always refer themselves to IPOC when that happens?
Edit: could it be that the reason they have referred themselves is because a complaint might be submitted by one or both of the defendants? IPOC is all about complaints or possible complaints, and AFAICT actual complaints will only be processed if they come from persons who claim they were affected.
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kittythehare
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More like this I would imagineThe police have said that their self-referral to IPOC was mandatory:
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: found baby ‘may have been dead for weeks’
Police say they have been unable to confirm gender of infant whose remains were found on Wednesdaywww.theguardian.com
“Because we believe the death occurred during the course of a missing person investigation, we have made a mandatory referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct. This is standard protocol for such circumstances.”
What's the relevant document?
Chapter 7 covers "Death or Serious Injury" matters, but only when the deceased person had been arrested or detained by the police or otherwise had direct or indirect contact with the police that may have caused serious death or injury.
Maybe they always make a referral though when they're looking for someone under the Missing Persons procedure and the person (or someone who is in that person's care) dies during that time. They said "mandatory" though. There must be quite a few cases when they look for someone as a Missing Person and the person dies while the police are looking for them. Do they always refer themselves to IPOC when that happens?
- if someone had direct or indirect contact with the police when, or shortly before, they were seriously injured or died. However, forces only need to refer cases where the contact may have caused or contributed to the death or injury
At the start of every investigation, we will outline which parts of the incident or event we will investigate. This is called our ‘terms of reference’.
Our investigators then gather evidence to establish all the circumstances of what’s happened. This may involve:
- taking witness statements
- interviewing police officers or members of police staff
- analysing footage from CCTV or cameras worn by police officers (body-worn video)
- obtaining other documents and records, such as telephone records
- reviewing policies that are relevant to what’s happened
At the end of our investigation, we produce a report that sets out:
- what happened
- what and how we investigated
- what evidence our investigators found
- our analysis of the evidence
The police force can then provide its representations about what should happen. While we will consider those views, we will make the final decision on what happens as a result of our investigation.
It is the police force that carries out any disciplinary action. They can hold disciplinary hearings (for gross misconduct) or meetings (for misconduct).
The possible disciplinary actions that the police force can carry out include:
- written warning
- final written warning
- reduction on rank
- dismissal without notice
If our investigations find areas for improvement or learning opportunities, we can make recommendations to the force involved – or to all forces, if appropriate.
What we investigate and next steps | Independent Office for Police Conduct
ScalableHeights
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I’ve been following thread this from the start but had to step away after the baby was found, but something has been nagging at me. Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but there’s too many new posts for me to catch up on.
<modsnip>
The ITV News at 10 said last week that CM hid the pregnancy when they couldn’t hide it any longer (by which I took to mean her bump showing) that was when they ran away. But hide it from who? <modsnip>
Social Services IS the most likely explanation… but I wondered if there was any chance there was a third party like this Nigerian Church that they were actually involved running from and not the authorities at all (although even as I type this it sounds incredibly unlikely). I guess we may find out their motives when it comes to trial.
<modsnip>
The ITV News at 10 said last week that CM hid the pregnancy when they couldn’t hide it any longer (by which I took to mean her bump showing) that was when they ran away. But hide it from who? <modsnip>
Social Services IS the most likely explanation… but I wondered if there was any chance there was a third party like this Nigerian Church that they were actually involved running from and not the authorities at all (although even as I type this it sounds incredibly unlikely). I guess we may find out their motives when it comes to trial.
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