UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

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He kept his notification schedule up under sex offender requirements, as far as we know, even in Leeds on 26 December when they were staying in Haltwhistle which is a long journey away, up near Carlisle. Also they had baby mittens that they left behind in the burning car. (So sad, regardless of who did what.) I wouldn't be surprised if they had the paperwork for the cat or a plan to make the required visit or visits to a vet.

In the novel there will be a second cat.
(Sorry for the attempt at humour but this case is becoming totally mental.)
Oh, come on, no way. To export a cat they need to be microchipped, vaccinated against rabies by an approved vet, then 30 days later you have to get a blood test to prove antibodies done by an approved laboratory, then you have to wait 3 months before travelling.

For sure they may just have planned to travel without thinking/caring about all of that, but they risked it being impounded and destroyed. Though maybe they didn't think/care about that either. (Speculation.)

Pet Travel: Other
 
I don't think she's a reliable witness, because it looks like the baby died 9-11 Jan, we know babies decompose more quickly than adults, she was in an unrecognisable state of decomposition by 1st March... but Pauline saw her on 19 Feb and she just looked a bit pale?

You'd think she'd mention the "looking dead" bit earlier, rather than just saying the baby's head looked floppy.

It's a bit odd.
It is odd, if you take the angle that 11 days later baby was so decomposed that officers couldn't visibly tell the sex...

Edit: if the witness is telling the truth, then surely baby passed away after 9-12th January
 
Another thing Pauline said doesn't add up. It's a horrible thing to discuss, but Pauline said the baby she saw was limp and floppy. Could be wrong, but I'm not sure a baby that had been dead for some time (as suggested by CM) would be floppy?
 
Do we know if CM knew about MG’s previous serious offence? I am wondering if he has some coercive controlling hold over her. She was previously under the spell of an exploitative cult. She also possibly has a genetic vulnerability as her father appeared to have an undiagnosed bipolar / psychotic illness masked as eccentricity (just MOO). Clearly they are both deemed mentally fit for trial but as a mental health professional specialising in psychosis I really do have a lot of questions here.
 
I'm updating the previous timeline. Changes are bolded by me. Sources are as before, plus the new ones listed below

- 1974 - MG born in Birmingham, the youngest of 7 children, to mum Sylvia
- ~1985 - MG, 11, and family move to Hollywood, Florida
- 26th May 1987 - CM born, lives at Crichel Down, a stately home in Dorset. Her parents are Napier and Virginie Marten (nee Camu, later de Selliers)
- 1989 - MG convicted of rape, age 14
- 1996 - Napier Marten, CM's father, leaves the family, heads to Australia, and leaves behind his 'materialistic' life. He variously has an out-of-body experience with Aborigines, goes whale watching, lives in a lorry, works as a chef and trains in Indian head massage. Unknown when he returned to the UK, but it's 2013 at the latest.
- 2005 (presumed) - CM leaves school - St Mary's Shaftesbury
- 6-18 months in 2006-7 (dates unclear, reports vary) - CM joins TB Joshua's SCOAN cult in Nigeria, which is later linked to sex abuse. Friends report she's not the same afterwards.
- 2008 - CM starts studying Arabic and Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Leeds
- Jan 2009 - CM listed as Tatler 'Babe of the Month'
- 2010 - MG released after 20 years and deported to UK
- 2010-11 - CM on a year abroad in Cairo, studying Arabic. She was, presumably, there when the Arab Spring / Egyptian Revolution happened in Cairo in Jan-Feb 2011. A friend, Noisette Tahoun, she met during this time, and stayed in touch with afterwards, later suggests she had a history of unhealthy relationships, referring to a relationship with a "vulgar" man, and that "when she falls in love she doesn't listen to anyone". It's unclear who or when this vulgar man was.
- 2012 - CM graduates from Leeds with a 2:1
- Aug 2012-June 2013 - CM works as a researcher for Al Jazeera in London, and pitches an idea for a documentary about TB Joshua
- 2013 - CM's childhood stately home at Crichel Down is sold. CM's father reported to be working as a tree surgeon, having passed the estate on early to his eldest son. At the time of CM's disappearance, he is reported to be a film and music producer.
- June-2013-14 - CM works in three short term jobs, two lasting less than a month and one lasting three months; appears to be out of work
- 2014 - CM does a NCTJ course in court reporting. I think this is possible a MOOC rather than anything terribly in depth.
- 2016 - CM leaves E15 Acting School and is listed as a graduate. It is unclear what year she started in - it could have been a second BA starting in 2013 (which would explain her work history) or an MA starting 2015.
- 2016 - CM and MG meet in unclear circumstances, but MG is reported to live near her and be working as a labourer. CM rapidly starts to cut off family and friends.
- June 2017 - CM pregnant, presents at a hospital in London, seeking antenatal care for the first time, says she's living in a campervan
- Sept 2017 - SS issues an alert because they can't locate her
- late 2017 - CM goes to a hospital in Wales in early labour, fake Irish accent, claims to be a traveller called Isabella O'Brien, and living in a campervan nearby. She says she lives in Leeds but is avoiding her family. MG pretends to be a friend, Mr Aymer, borrowing a surname from CM's sister-in-law.
- unspecified time later, it emerges they were living in a flimsy festival style tent with black bin bags and bottles of urine.
- Interim care order made, and CM and the first baby (FF) go into a mother and baby foster care placement. CM warned about the danger of falling asleep with baby on her. It's unclear if she leaves this foster placement with FF, or when GG is born.
- Jan 2020 - local authority starts care proceedings
- 4 Feb 2020 - CM posts a facebook album with three children entitled "my love sprogs", with different children labelled bty / cof / dav. IMO she posted that in the hope that it would make it easier for the children to find her on social media when they're older. Many of her facebook friends express surprise that she has any children at all. One of the comments suggests that a picture is taken in Ilford, East London.
- Some point between Jan and June 2020 - baby HH is born
- June 2020 - MG and CM refuse a placement in a residential unit, so an emergency care and separation order is made for all three children.
- Unknown date around this time - CM and MG are evicted from a property in Ilford.
- August 2020 - MG and CM are reported to be living on the Coldharbour Estate, Greenwich / Eltham, though it's unknown when they moved in. Neighbours report shouting, and the couple spending long periods of time elsewhere. NB: I believe the same property is variously referred to as being on the "Coldharbour Estate, Greenwich" and "in Eltham", though there is a possiblity there were two homes very close together.
- May 2021 - CM pregnant again with baby II, refuses entry to a social worker, SS arrange a scan, CM disappears and claims she's having private healthcare. Date of birth unclear, but she later leaves hospital without II, despite having been told that if she does that the baby will be recorded as abandoned. The next day she returns to the hospital but is upset to be refused entry because she wouldn't take a covid test. She tells SS that she and MG are 'naturalists' who disagree with any medical intervention.
- August 2021, CM's brother Max Marten marries Ruth Aymer, and the wedding is featured in Vogue. CM is nowhere to be seen due to the estrangement.
- 28 Jan 2022 - care and placement orders made for all four children (adopted, or SGO, presumably) at which point they will have known that they have lost all hope of getting those children back.
- March / April(?) 2022 CM pregnant again, conceals pregnancy
- August / September 2022 (sources differ) - MG and CM withdraw £15,000 cash, are evicted, and leave their property in Coldharbour Estate Greenwich / Eltham (they were evicted, but IMO: this coincides with when her bump started to show). They weren't paying rent, and left smoke damage and a collapsed ceiling behind them.
- September - December 2022 - live a nomadic lifestyle, staying in a series of Airbnbs

- 19 Dec 2022 - MG reports to a police station in Sheffield, presumably as part of his sex offender licence conditions.
- 20-26 Dec 2022 - CM & MG stay in holiday cottage in Northumberland
- 22 Dec - CM receives £15,590 from trust fund
- 24 Dec 2022 - CM claims Victoria was born, though this is disputed.
- 26 Dec 2022 - MG reports to a police station in Leeds
- 28 Dec 2022 - Car, a Peugeot 206, breaks down on M61 Greater Manchester (the podcast states this was a Suzuki in M18 Yorkshire). Recovery crew think they're living in the car but don't see a baby. Car towed to Leeds.
- 3 Jan 2023 - CM receives £3400 from a different trust fund
- 4 Jan 2023 - CM & MG check into hotel in Lymm, Cheshire and then later into a different hotel in Manchester
- 5 Jan 2023 - Peugeot 206 car catches fire on the M61 near J4 Bolton, around 6.30pm CM and MG depart leaving behind a passport, placenta, 30 'burner' phones, bible, clothes, 5 used nappies, and a cat in a box. The manhunt begins. Local man called Waiwai Balai gives them a lift to Bolton city centre. 20.02 spotted on CCTV at Bolton Bus Interchange. Take a taxi from Bolton to Liverpool, then a separate taxi from near Liverpool Royal Hospital to Harwich. Speculation is that, as both Liverpool and Harwich are ports, they are trying to leave the country but are hamstrung because MG doesn't have a passport and CM lost hers in the car fire.
- 6 Jan 2023 - CM and MG check in at 3am in Premier Inn Harwich. They move to the Fryatt hotel that night.
- 7 Jan 2023 - Check out of hotel in Harwich at 7am, then take a taxi to Colchester, then a taxi to East Ham, where they are seen 10.30-12.30. They take a taxi to Whitechapel Road, arriving at 6.15pm. Eat a meal at a restaurant on Brick Lane. Baby seen moving. MG buys a buggy at Argos, along with some camping gear. Try to get a taxi, fail, dump buggy, put baby in Lidl bag.
- 8 Jan 2023 - Shortly after midnight they ask taxi driver Abdirisakh Mohamud to take them to Tesco Extra Enfield. CM claims to be a Muslim using a hood and facemask as a hijab. MG claims to be doing the same because of a hair problem. The taxi driver becomes uneasy and drops the couple off prematurely on Green Lanes - presumably around the Green Lanes / Allison Road junction as they then catch another taxi, driven by Hasan Guzel, departing at 1.25am. During the journey, her phone pings and she asks to change the destination from Portsmouth to Newhaven. The baby is heard "meowing". They arrive at Newhaven at 4.56am. Seen sheltering from rain under an underpass around 6am. CM buys snacks at Texaco. 6.15am - seen walking towards fields with bag and tent.
- 9-11 Jan 2023 - CM claims baby died, changing her story during questioning.
- 12 Jan, early hours - CM purchases petrol and snacks from Texaco. She later claims this was because she considered cremating the baby.
- 19 Jan - Napier Marten issues appeal for CM to turn herself in
- 21 Jan - Karen Satchell, half sister of MG, goes to press saying he was wrongly convicted of rape

- 16 Jan 2023 - 11.45am Nicholas Frost, a dog walker sees tent and MG getting out of it at Stanmer Park Nature Reserve. It is not there a week later.
- 8 Feb - Virginie de Selliers, CM's mum and a psychotherapist, issues an appeal for her to come forward
- 16/17 Feb 2023 - seen near Hollingbury Golf Course with a buggy but no baby
- 17 Feb - tent seen Coldean Lane / Stanmer Park, Brighton (Coldean Lane runs through the park). Sighting in Stanmer Park around midday by witness Mary Thomsen.
- 18 Feb - sighting of CM and MG around Coldean Lane, with CM appearing to have something under her jacket
- 19 Feb - CM and MG seen in Stanmer Park with blue tent, and a 'floppy headed' baby with no clothes. The witness, Pauline Mason, states in court that the baby was so pale she believes it was already dead.
-
19 Feb - MG's mother Sylvia, who lives in Florida, goes to the papers saying he's a 'good boy', that he and CM had married in secret some time ago (no evidence of this is ever produced) and suggesting they could have been kidnapped.
- 20 Feb - CM and MG seen scavenging in bins around Hollingbury Golf Course
- 22 Feb - CM and MG attend Brighton Food Bank. They receive some food, but don't ask for baby items, which are available.
- 27 Feb 2023 - CM and MG go to Mulberry's Convenience Store and buy £20 worth of food in cash but no baby items. Shortly afterwards, they are arrested in Brighton, 9.35pm, smelling 'very unpleasant'. They refuse to tell police where the baby is.
- 1 March 2023 - Baby Victoria's remains found, so decomposed that the sex could not be identified visually and the post mortem could not identify a cause of death

Sources: as before, but the additional sources for the update are as follows

Constance & partner seen at food bank without baby days before arrest







Constance Marten: Taxi driver recalls 'uneasy feeling' about couple


‘Beyond painful’: Dad of runaway aristocrat pleads with daughter to turn herself in


From 19 February when possibly dead Victory was seen to 1 March when her remains were found significantly decomposed seems like a short time for decomposition to happen, especially in cold weather. I'll admit to having no expertise there though. Does anyone have better knowledge of how likely this would be in order to possibly discount the 19 February sighting? It sound as though it may be possible that this was someone else or there was no baby. JMO.

ETA: I see that it was already noted by @JumpingFrog
 
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I think this has been said upthread but hadn't quite clocked that the dumping of the buggy happened after they tried and failed to get a taxi.

That makes some sense, if there were no black cabs around and they resorted to Uber or minicabs, some of whom would be legally required (I think) to refuse a baby if they didn't have a car seat.
Kids can go in taxis of any kind in the back without a car seat. Not safe, but its legal. They will also take folding buggies, that one looks like it folds so drivers wouldn't refuse on that basis either.
 
Here is an example of the kind of craziness that perception of this case is finding itself melded into. This was surely written by an AI program given the task of stirring in a dose of Cyprus?

 
Another thing Pauline said doesn't add up. It's a horrible thing to discuss, but Pauline said the baby she saw was limp and floppy. Could be wrong, but I'm not sure a baby that had been dead for some time (as suggested by CM) would be floppy?

Rigor mortis is only temporary, and passes within about 24 hours (ish!)

Do we know if CM knew about MG’s previous serious offence? I am wondering if he has some coercive controlling hold over her. She was previously under the spell of an exploitative cult. She also possibly has a genetic vulnerability as her father appeared to have an undiagnosed bipolar / psychotic illness masked as eccentricity (just MOO). Clearly they are both deemed mentally fit for trial but as a mental health professional specialising in psychosis I really do have a lot of questions here.

Napier Marten, CM's father, said in Jan 2023 that they had known of his conviction "for some time" and they were concerned about it

‘Beyond painful’: Dad of runaway aristocrat pleads with daughter to turn herself in

He later referred to her time in the SCOAN cult as being very damaging

“The stories of the abuse meted out by Joshua are shocking and heart-rending. I sincerely hope the police can now investigate potential links between any institution involved in making Constance and others suffer at the hands of the phoney prophet in his Lagos Synagogue.

“These experiences appear to have been a trigger in so much of what has happened to harm Constance in recent years, setting up a pattern of behaviour exposing her to easy manipulation. I cannot begin to comprehend the trauma to which Constance and others have been subjected. My heart goes out to her and them.

“I am grateful to the police for their continued efforts to locate Constance and her baby, and for following all avenues of inquiry. The only urgency is to know she and the baby are safe.I have been so touched by the hundreds of messages of support and want to thank everyone for their great kindness.”


 
Pics of items from the burning car

View attachment 479620


It really baffles me to see a snowsuit here.

They saw the need for a snowsuit even before they were exposed to the freezing temperatures they ended up in.

And yet they don’t seem to have bought a replacement snowsuit later. They could definitely afford one and baby Victoria definitely needed one.

Was it the bulkiness and weight of it? That if Victoria was wearing it then they couldn’t place her under their coats or inside the shopping bag? Sad all round.
 
Oh, come on, no way. To export a cat they need to be microchipped, vaccinated against rabies by an approved vet, then 30 days later you have to get a blood test to prove antibodies done by an approved laboratory, then you have to wait 3 months before travelling.

For sure they may just have planned to travel without thinking/caring about all of that, but they risked it being impounded and destroyed. Though maybe they didn't think/care about that either. (Speculation.)

Pet Travel: Other
The 3-month wait doesn't apply GB to NI, ROI, or elsewhere in the EU. I doubt they were planning to board a ferry by foot carrying a cat box and no documentation. Chipping probably happened when the cat was tiny. I'm suggesting they may have had everything done when there was less pressure.

I wonder where the cat is now and whether they themselves asked the police about it after they were arrested.


 
The more I hear the sadder I become. The whole case is just terrible, the completely avoidable death of a tiny baby and the likely suffering of the older children in the past.

The sense I get is of mental illness and spiralling chaos rather than calculated cruelty. The end results are no less devastating, but I don’t see these two as criminal masterminds with a plan, rather two very damaged individuals. MOO of course.

One question I have is about the trust fund- do we know how much money CM received every year or how often the payments were made? The approx £20k received in December is a lot of money, however if that was the sum total of their annual income then I can see how they ended up in rent arrears. One lump sum a year paid to an individual living a chaotic lifestyle does not seem like a recipe for good financial management.
 
The 3-month wait doesn't apply GB to NI, ROI, or elsewhere in the EU. I doubt they were planning to board a ferry by foot carrying a cat box and no documentation. Chipping probably happened when the cat was tiny. I'm suggesting they may have had everything done when there was less pressure.

I wonder where the cat is now and whether they themselves asked the police about it after they were arrested.



If they were planning to board a ferry at that point presumably it would have been with their car, not on foot.
 
The more I hear the sadder I become. The whole case is just terrible, the completely avoidable death of a tiny baby and the likely suffering of the older children in the past.

The sense I get is of mental illness and spiralling chaos rather than calculated cruelty. The end results are no less devastating, but I don’t see these two as criminal masterminds with a plan, rather two very damaged individuals. MOO of course.

One question I have is about the trust fund- do we know how much money CM received every year or how often the payments were made? The approx £20k received in December is a lot of money, however if that was the sum total of their annual income then I can see how they ended up in rent arrears. One lump sum a year paid to an individual living a chaotic lifestyle does not seem like a recipe for good financial management.

Completely avoidable. :( They have been charged with manslaughter, not murder.
 
Kids can go in taxis of any kind in the back without a car seat. Not safe, but its legal. They will also take folding buggies, that one looks like it folds so drivers wouldn't refuse on that basis either.
AH, yes I remember hearing in the thread before, BUT whether or not what it's technically legal, in practice, taxi drivers - in particular ubers - do refuse. (IME). I agree with whoever said before that a black cab would take a buggy, but I've also been in london plenty - especially since covid - and not been able to find a black cab anywhere.

I suppose the time of day may also have made them wary of being seen with a buggy.
 
If they’d thought enough to bring a coat in the car, it’s more bizarre that they didn’t replace it somehow.
It really baffles me to see a snowsuit here.

They saw the need for a snowsuit even before they were exposed to the freezing temperatures they ended up in.

And yet they don’t seem to have bought a replacement snowsuit later. They could definitely afford one and baby Victoria definitely needed one.

Was it the bulkiness and weight of it? That if Victoria was wearing it then they couldn’t place her under their coats or inside the shopping bag? Sad all round.
I thought that was bizarre too. My only other thought is that they hadn’t bought the clothes in the first place? Could have been a previous baby that they still had,
perhaps, and they just took what they already owned with them intending to use it? Or maybe they’d just really lost their grip on reality or priorities by that point after the car fire?

JMO but I really feel like one or both could have MH problems that the other has become caught up in. Does anyone remember the horribly sad Sophie Lionnet case? Where the couple who murdered her fed off the bizarre delusion thinking of one of them and killed her because she would not confess to crimes they’d imagined. (The killers were sent down for murder and seen as fit to stand trial.) I feel like theres a similar delusional world for CM and MG that exists only for them and that’s caused them to really have no idea how to connect with reality at all. I imagine that would easily grind away at someone’s ability to truly empathise to the point where just because they were cold or hungry, they couldn’t necessarily imagine anyone, even their own daughter was. They could only really think of whatever delusions their life was centred around. (Only my opinion and musings though.)
 
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