UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[QB2022]

I am glad more is done to support adopted children. We recently did our family tree to tackle the mystery of my adopted grandad who had gone to his grave never knowing and very angry with the world. The truth is horrific (his poor mum!) And I think if he had known then his outlook would have been very different.

The social media stuff is complicated though. My ex had a cousin who passed out drunk and her then 2 year old fell pit of a 3rd storey window. Survived as landed on a person but never returned to mum. When you Google her mum's name the first hit is about her falling out of the window, the second hit is about mum's brother being a serial offending peadophile. It is one extreme from another.

 

[AndiesmissM]

long Long LONG time lurker - 1st time poster on this thread. I honestly was keeping an open mind… until I saw the CCTV from the kebab shop. That told me all I needed to know about how they ‘cared’ for that baby. Then when CM started spouting her crazy conspiracy theories… ok, yep, I get it now. I know people like this. Privileged upbringings bring a certain sense of self-entitlement that makes folks think they are above normal societal norms. Vile

IMO

 

[Maltesepuppy]

And even for this awful fact, she had an excuse

She found it difficult. It wasn't meant to be easy, it was about giving that poor baby a modicum of respect.
After all the empty rhetoric in which she's painted herself as this self sacrificing example of maternal devotion!
Throwing herself under a bus for her baby, yeah sure.
It's always all about her. And about her being the best and definitely not wrong. She's coming across as the biggest narcissist ever.
JMO MOO

 

[QB2022]

“People have survived without houses and hospitals for millennia. Babies don’t require that much to survive – they just need food, warmth and care.”

So she knew a tent in Jan and Feb wasn't adequate?!

 

[DianaWW]

“People have survived without houses and hospitals for millennia. Babies don’t require that much to survive – they just need food, warmth and care.”

So she knew a tent in Jan and Feb wasn't adequate?!

I really don’t understand why she keeps bringing up these examples to be honest. The fact is, Victoria did not survive. So if she really believes that all that’s needed is warmth, food and care, doesn’t that mean that Victoria didn’t have those things?

 

[Rolypolyoly]

She found it difficult. It wasn't meant to be easy, it was about giving that poor baby a modicum of respect.
After all the empty rhetoric in which she's painted herself as this self sacrificing example of maternal devotion!
Throwing herself under a bus for her baby, yeah sure.
It's always all about her. And about her being the best and definitely not wrong. She's coming across as the biggest narcissist ever.
JMO MOO

It's just another thing to add to the list isn't it? She would do anything for her child, anything! Except staying put and accepting help, except not dragging her across the country shoved under a coat, except buying her warm clothes, or any clothes at all, or the feel of a soft bed, or a warm bath, except give her up to be loved and cared for by someone else because she couldn't do it, and the very last thing she should have done for her beautiful baby girl, the one thing she should have given her after she failed her at every other turn, was dignity in death, and she couldn't even do that for her.

She is a disgrace. She said that she would rather Victoria had been taken into care and lived, but that's not true. She did make a sacrifice, she sacrificed her child's life to get one over on the system.

She knew if she had another baby that they would be taken away, if she would do anything for her children then she should have stopped having them.

Selfish, despicable and deluded.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

It's just another thing to add to the list isn't it? She would do anything for her child, anything! Except staying put and accepting help, except not dragging her across the country shoved under a coat, except buying her warm clothes, or any clothes at all, or the feel of a soft bed, or a warm bath, except give her up to be loved and cared for by someone else because she couldn't do it, and the very last thing she should have done for her beautiful baby girl, the one thing she should have given her after she failed her at every other turn, was dignity in death, and she couldn't even do that for her.

She is a disgrace. She said that she would rather Victoria had been taken into care and lived, but that's not true. She did make a sacrifice, she sacrificed her child's life to get one over on the system.

She knew if she had another baby that they would be taken away, if she would do anything for her children then she should have stopped having them.

Selfish, despicable and deluded.

It's very telling that the biggest sacrifice she did is when they used her card to buy food because her disgrace of a boyfriend was looking "anorexically thin".
She knew that they would likely be arrested, separated and risk going to prison. But she accepted all of this because MG was starving, poor, poor thing.
It was ok to be found by the authorities to preserve his precious life but Victoria wasn't so deserving in her eyes.

 

[seasideForest]

“People have survived without houses and hospitals for millennia. Babies don’t require that much to survive – they just need food, warmth and care.”

I'm going to hazard a guess that babies born in tents or caves or other non-house dwellings in previous generations were more susceptible to illness and death, particularly if they were born in the cold and/or wet winter months. Some (or maybe even most) survived of course, but not all. MOO.

As for "Jesus was born in a stable", that's going to be hard to prove in court. Don't want to offend anybody's religious feelings, I'm Christian myself, but that's not something you can say in court with any conviction.

And her baby plainly didn't survive. Grrr.
Poor little Victoria, rip.

 

[rockthecasbah]

She already claimed to be Muslim in the taxi, now potentially annoying/offending any Christians on the jury.

 

[guiser]

I'm half expecting the court artist to give us a picture of CM's defence team with their heads in their hands.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I'm going to hazard a guess that babies born in tents or caves or other non-house dwellings in previous generations were more susceptible to illness and death, particularly if they were born in the cold and/or wet winter months. Some (or maybe even most) survived of course, but not all. MOO.

As for "Jesus was born in a stable", that's going to be hard to prove in court. Don't want to offend anybody's religious feelings, I'm Christian myself, but that's not something you can say in court with any conviction.

And her baby plainly didn't survive. Grrr.
Poor little Victoria, rip.

Infant mortality in England, a millennia ago was up to 50%. So, those statistics don’t help her either !

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Does anyone know if defence witnesses will be called Friday or is it assumed the case will go on into next week?

 

[kittythehare]

What is the relationship between her and her family and how much has it actually affected her freedom?
Is it in her mind or is it real?

I am reluctant to dismiss her without knowing whether or not there is any truth to her allegations.I'm also wondering whether addiction was present in one or both and whether this figured in Victoria's death?

I'm not a mother but I do sleep with animals, sometimes very sick animals and my instinct is present even when I sleep.. to protect, to check to provide, whatever..and if death seems imminent I will place them on my chest so they're near my heart... but they never die when I do this..it's a strange phenomenon how we keep ourselves and the creatures we care for alive even after their time has come..Their accumulated body heat should have maintained the childs body temperature if they were eating well and often..

I dont suppose we will ever know.
I don't even know that she knows herself any more what occurred..

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

What is the relationship between her and her family and how much has it actually affected her freedom?
Is it in her mind or is it real?

I am reluctant to dismiss her without knowing whether or not there is any truth to her allegations.I'm also wondering whether addiction was present in one or both and whether this figured in Victoria's death?

I'm not a mother but I do sleep with animals, sometimes very sick animals and my instinct is present even when I sleep.. to protect, to check to provide, whatever..and if death seems imminent I will place them on my chest so they're near my heart... but they never die when I do this..it's a strange phenomenon how we keep ourselves and the creatures we care for alive even after their time has come..Their accumulated body heat should have maintained the childs body temperature if they were eating well and often..

I dont suppose we will ever know.
I don't even know that she knows herself any more what occurred..

RBBM
I understand the allegations CM has mentioned are irrelevant to the case, but I feel there is something in them. No one has refuted them so far. It is as if they are relying on the jury and the public to dismiss them as 'crazy talk'.
Being a scapegoat is not easy, and unless you are able to break contact, it is never-ending. I get the scapegoat vibe from CM, especially knowing her family's behaviour in court.
I am a mother, and I also sleep with animals. I have a 'knack' for knowing when something is out of the ordinary with an animal, and I agree with the instincts you mentioned regarding pets being sick or near death.
My youngest daughter, now 18, was born at 28 weeks gestation, I had severe pre-eclmapsia. In the early days, I was allowed to hold her sporadically and only me. I did what they call Kangaroo Care. She would be naked, ageinest my bare skin, and tucked in with a blanket around us both.
No feeding or diaper changes, etc, just snuggles.
The nurses and doctors always reinforced how this was the best medicine for my daughter and me.
Of course this was also intended to keep me involved, as well as stimulating my milk to be expressed.
The point being, I agree she kept her close and reacted to instinct.

 

[kittythehare]

RBBM
I understand the allegations CM has mentioned are irrelevant to the case, but I feel there is something in them. No one has refuted them so far. It is as if they are relying on the jury and the public to dismiss them as 'crazy talk'.
Being a scapegoat is not easy, and unless you are able to break contact, it is never-ending. I get the scapegoat vibe from CM, especially knowing her family's behaviour in court.
I am a mother, and I also sleep with animals. I have a 'knack' for knowing when something is out of the ordinary with an animal, and I agree with the instincts you mentioned regarding pets being sick or near death.
My youngest daughter, now 18, was born at 28 weeks gestation, I had severe pre-eclmapsia. In the early days, I was allowed to hold her sporadically and only me. I did what they call Kangaroo Care. She would be naked, ageinest my bare skin, and tucked in with a blanket around us both.
No feeding or diaper changes, etc, just snuggles.
The nurses and doctors always reinforced how this was the best medicine for my daughter and me.
Of course this was also intended to keep me involved, as well as stimulating my milk to be expressed.
The point being, I agree she kept her close and reacted to instinct.

She had a pretty good income from her trust acc to the BBC report, certainly enough to buy a nice warm cabin somewhere and rear a child in secret if she wished.. or gone abroad.. she said she had been stopped at the port because a member of her family had that much power.

It's worthy of investigation, at least.
She's an adult..
Did it happen like she said?

This could well be an entire Walter Mitty esque delusion or it could be true.

I think they should have told the police where they had left Victoria immediately after they were arrested. They chose to play hardball though.

The other question is how much the public chase was a determinant in Victoria's death.

I don't know this woman at all and I'm reluctant to judge her.

I do hope the judgement is fair, however come what may.

It seems to be deeply symbiotic relationship. They need to be free of each other, I think.

They could have got a dog. Or rescued cats or volunteered at animal shelters.. but they just kept making babies.

 

[crespo29]

Does anyone know if defence witnesses will be called Friday or is it assumed the case will go on into next week?

This case will go on next week, after the defence finishes its case, The prosecution will spend about a day giving its closing speech, I would imagine that the Defence closing speech won't last quite that long. Then the judge will give his speech which I would imagine will take the best part of a day. Then the jury have to make their mind up. If I had to guess, it will go on to Wednesday/Thursday when the jury will be sent to decide their verdict. I think that the jury's job has been made easier by CM's performance in the dock.

 

[Alyce]

Does anyone know if defence witnesses will be called Friday or is it assumed the case will go on into next week?

If Prosecution finish their cross examination this morning, then they might get another defence witness in before close of play.
But am fairly sure they are not sitting next week, I think Judge is away.

 

[Earthwindfire]

She had a pretty good income from her trust acc to the BBC report, certainly enough to buy a nice warm cabin somewhere and rear a child in secret if she wished.. or gone abroad.. she said she had been stopped at the port because a member of her family had that much power.

It's worthy of investigation, at least.
She's an adult..
Did it happen like she said?

This could well be an entire Walter Mitty esque delusion or it could be true.

I think they should have told the police where they had left Victoria immediately after they were arrested. They chose to play hardball though.

The other question is how much the public chase was a determinant in Victoria's death.

I don't know this woman at all and I'm reluctant to judge her.

I do hope the judgement is fair, however come what may.

It seems to be deeply symbiotic relationship. They need to be free of each other, I think.

They could have got a dog. Or rescued cats or volunteered at animal shelters.. but they just kept making babies.

I just can't honestly believe her family stopped her travelling in her own right. I can believe they alerted authorities which led to her not being able to travel with the babies. Also that they may have reported that MG was going to travel and maybe he wasn't supposed to.

I feel sorry for her as she sounds deeply unwell to me. And I agree they need to be away from one another. Or rather she needs to be away from him. She comes across as unwell. He hasn't given as much away but from what he has given away, I have the impression of someone who is arrogant, manipulative and not very nice.

 

[Earthwindfire]

If Prosecution finish their cross examination this morning, then they might get another defence witness in before close of play.
But am fairly sure they are not sitting next week, I think Judge is away.

Given the judge being away, I wonder if they will bother calling another witness today. There would then be a 10 day break until they finish giving evidence. I imagine that if they finish her cross examination then they would probably give everyone an early finish as it's a Friday.

 

[iamshadow21]

I just can't honestly believe her family stopped her travelling in her own right. I can believe they alerted authorities which led to her not being able to travel with the babies. Also that they may have reported that MG was going to travel and maybe he wasn't supposed to.

I feel sorry for her as she sounds deeply unwell to me. And I agree they need to be away from one another. Or rather she needs to be away from him. She comes across as unwell. He hasn't given as much away but from what he has given away, I have the impression of someone who is arrogant, manipulative and not very nice.

I don't feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for her kids, all of them. If any of them one day choose to meet her as an adult, I don't think it's going to be what they hope for, in any way.

MOO