UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #12

[jessie]

I thought this was officially murder without a body?

AFAIK nothing official yet. Cases progress in LE, and the investigation itself progresses. Nothing physically yet to announce a murder investigation, it is all down to LE and their status of their investigations. Some time ago I did post a c/p of how police progress their investigations.

 

[Hermit Holmes]

Thanks for the timeline Midsummer.

I've worked the last 20 years in the licensed trade and thought I'd offer my thoughts.

Using Midsummers timeline, discarding the 'pre drinking' in the car. Corrie entered the first bar SoBar at 11.05, to then leave again. Realistically, how much alcohol can he consume in that time period? He could have had drinks waiting for him, yet there seems to be an air of confusion to whether he met friends or not that evening. Either way, the 15 minuted in SoBar, could have seen him consume two/three drinks at most, but in 15 minutes, most likely one. He could have also had shots.

He then enters Wetherspoons at 11.20 for around 50 minutes. Again realistically, how much alcohol could he consume in those 50 minutes? Evidence from Wetherspoons says he was socialising, visiting different tables, friendly, chatting to people, not stood at the bar, ordering, drinking fast, doing shots etc.

He then then enters the nightclub at 12:15, telling the manager on entry that he is drunk, and 'I love you'.

At this point he admits he is drunk, yet he is still allowed entry to the club. The manager and the doorman, didn't see him as a problem on entry so must have made a call on his level of inebriation. Refusing a drunk person on entry outside the premises, rather evicting them an hour later when they have drunk more is the general call, it makes life easier for doorman and staff, and reduces potential risk. The doorman having to remove Corrie one hour later, shows a mistake here was made.

Drunk people go to nightclubs, they dance, flirt and have a great time, they only get asked to leave if the security feels they will have a problem to deal with down the line. For example, if a loud, boisterous army guy was drunk having a great time, not really bothering anyone, in a club, with his army friends, and the doorman had to evict him, the potential for trouble increases massively. Similarly if he's bothering the other guys girlfriends, knocking drinks over etc, anything that could create potential for trouble. Otherwise, you leave the guy, and let him have a good time.

If I was the boss of this club, I would be asking why someone was let in, only to be thrown out one hour later?

Anyway...I'm rambling now ..

My point here is.

Only the doorman seems to have deemed Corrie 'too drunk' In the first paragraphs, I illustrate that he didn't really have that much time to drink a lot of alcohol, he's a well built guy, and experienced drinker from accounts.

So that leaves the pre drinking in the car, or perhaps before he left base. however, there is no mention, from his brother about Corrie being drunk on the phone. He could have had a couple of cans. Neat vodka? Wine. But its not been mentioned. The statement from Wetherspoons also does not mention he is drunk.

If we could ascertain how much alcohol he had consumed, interview bar staff etc, we could determine how physically, mentally coherent and able he was at the time of his disappearance. Wether he could make decisions, defend himself etc.

Another side thing...for us guys, when we've had a beer,once we have the first pee of the night, we ten to go again and again. 'Break the seal' Unless he's peed in the doorway of Hughes, then he's gone a whole 2 and a bit hours without needing a pee. Ok, that's not too crazy a time, but for a guy who supposedly very drunk, and has consumed a lot of alcohol, it does surprise me a little.

Unless of course..He wasn't as drunk as the picture is being painted.

Thanks for reading patiently

 

[Shiressleuth]

On the subject of vodka, I may very well have referred to it on this thread or the Parking Lot one recently.
However, it certainly wasn't me who mentioned it in the first place but after all this time I haven't a hope in trying to find where it was first referenced.
Sorry!

"Would have saved money by drinking his own vodka" could also mean having his own still but I don't think cotton meant that either. (I do know people who do that though)

 

[cottonweaver]

Slightly off topic, but I hope I never go missing. The character assassination in this case has been something to behold lol!

Corrie is now basically a social hand grenade, closet homosexual, that cant handle his drink and meets up with men from the internet in bin shed areas for a spot of 'hows your father' early in the morning.



My theory: Corrie was hanging around hoping to sober up so he could drive his car back in the morning. He hopped into cardboard bin for a few hours kip then accidentally got tipped into refuse truck. During trucks journey back to the depot he has somehow exited it. Possibly disorientated/injured/concused he has wandered into the forrest/river and perished.

I think poster mrazda , a day ago, pointed out that this case could end up being similar to Adrian Lynch's ( accidental drowning) and one point Adrian's father made after he was finally located was about "restoring dignity" to his son.

You're pointing to the classic conflicts of MP investigations and all forums - leaving no stone unturned and trying to ascertain all connections/risk factors/threats.........when of course his disappearance might be something far more ordinary with no personal factors whatsoever.

 

[jessie]

Welcome :welcome:

Thanks for that @ Hermit Holmes, So useful and informative to have such insights. Do stay.

 

[Shiressleuth]

This would be seen on the CCTV though, IMO if the phone was stolen it was after the 3.24 CCTV

yep or found that's possible too.

 

[Clevercat]

My latest thoughts:


I have reverted to thinking that the answer to Corrie's disappearance is one of two of the more simplistic scenarios.


1. He waits in Hughes doorway with the intention of getting a lift back with his friends when they leave Flex. He falls asleep and on awakening and seeing the time he realises that he has missed his lift. He then wanders to the HS area with the intention to pee and then walk home. Much has been said about whether or not he had done this before. I believe that his brother Darroch answers this for us on the interview with Sky News on Oct 19th (about 2mins 40s in)
http://www.findcorrie.co.uk/newsupdates/page/8/


where he says in reply to a question about whether Corrie had walked home before, 'he'd only got so far along'. Presumably he had then been picked up by a vehicle driven by friends or people/person unknown on this/these occasions and had returned safely to base. This would also account for Nicola's hesitation whilst answering this question as in fact he had never walked all the way back to base before, only part way.


So getting back to my scenario, whilst in the HS area, or on his way out, he meets with someone who offers him a lift at least part way (possibly the 4th vehicle with supposedly no business being in the area) and Corrie and his phone depart. He leaves the vehicle safely and then comes to harm through getting lost/disoriented and has some kind of accident or fall in Thetford forest or in water.


The person giving him the lift hasn't come forward because he/she wasn't supposed to be there/wasn't supposed to be driving/was up to no good etc etc.


2. Alternatively, Corrie arranged a hook-up whilst in Hughes doorway with a similar ending. The person he met doing him no harm but not coming forward as he/she wasn't supposed to be there/wasn't supposed to be 'hooking-up' etc etc.


I don't believe that a 3rd party would have thrown his phone in the bin as if they did, they surely intended to harm Corrie. As they weren't to know that it wouldn't be spotted at the recycling centre, it may have been recovered and hold valuable info like whatsapp message info.


This is obviously all conjecture on my part based on the limited facts/info we have.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Welcome :welcome:

Thanks for that @ Hermit Holmes, So useful and informative to have such insights. Do stay.

Ditto Hermit.

 

[DanceCard]

"Would have saved money by drinking his own vodka" could also mean having his own still but I don't think cotton meant that either. (I do know people who do that though)

Sorry Shiressleuth, that's not what I was meaning.
Someone asked where the vodka reference had come from and I was saying that I may have mentioned vodka recently, but my point is that I can't remember where I originally read about vodka to reference the source.

I was trying to apologise if I have mentioned vodka somewhere in this thread without having a source.

I certainly didn't mention it with ill intention.

I'm going to take a break from Corrie's thread for a while.
Good luck everyone with your sleuthing, and let's hope that Corrie is found very soon.

 

[MidsummersDay]

Take us from there to his demise though.

Two scenarios now we've established probabilities;
These are based on a 'Hook up' scenarios that were voted on earlier in the Thread.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO ONE
0308: Corrie sends/receives a phone image in Hughes doorway proving he's compus mentus (but still intoxicated?).
He's waiting on that corner for his lift as its affords easy egress out of BSE.
The communication between him and the driver about the collection point is either misunderstood or deliberately avoided to afford more privacy for the driver.
0324: Corrie realises it's getting closer to 0330 and being a gunner and punctual he jogs to the Rvp in the 'Horseshoe' where his 'hook up' is waiting.
0330: The car is either in the dark of the 'Horseshoe' already, or has just pulled up (I'd say the former. I can see the texts flying about....'where are you?', 'I'm here already'...'where, I can't see you!').
Corrie approaches the car and confirms his identity to the driver.
They both like what they see and Corrie enters the car.
For the next 40 minutes, they get jiggly and discuss how he's going to get home.
0415: Bin lorry enters Shortbrackland.
0420: Bin lorry commences uplift in the 'Horseshoe' and they hold ground in the low light of the car and until the headlights illuminate them both or the driver gets nosey. Bin lorry finishes procedure and leaves, followed by Corrie and his driver/perp.
0430: Corrie and the driver exit the BSE phone mast area and head along the same or similar route to the bin lorry, stopping or slowing down looking for a secluded spot.
0500: Corrie's phone enters BM phone mast area with Corrie.
Business commences and is concluded shortly before Corrie is dropped off on a footpath/woodland track which he's agreed to.
Corrie meets his demise during a navex home...twisted ankle, broken leg, drowning, hypothermia etc).
Sun up at 0530: Corrie has to be under cover (ditch/river/lake/forest) by this time or he'd have been seen.
0800: Corrie's mobile phone is either switched off, battery exhausted (likely), or damaged. No further comms.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO TWO
0308: Corrie sends/receives a phone image in Hughes doorway proving he's compus mentus (but still intoxicated?).
He's waiting on that corner for his 'hook up' lift as its a affords easy egress out of BSE. He'd arranged it earlier in the evening.
The communication between him and the hook up/driver/perp about the collection point is either misunderstood or deliberately avoided to afford more privacy for the driver/perp.
0324: Corrie realises it's getting closer to 0330 and after final confirmation, being a gunner and punctual, he jogs to the Rvp in the 'Horseshoe' where his 'hook up' is waiting. Caught on CCTV.
0330: The car is either in the dark of the 'Horseshoe' already or has just pulled up (again, I'd say the former. I can see the texts flying about....'where are you?', 'I'm here already'...'where?!).
Corrie confirms his identity to the driver who is out of the car by the first blue 1100ltr bin.
They both like what they see and get jiggly. Corrie's phone falls into the bin unbeknown to him at the time and after the action. He's obviously distracted.
0415: Bin lorry enters Shortbrackland.
They both enter the perp's car and chat about getting Corrie back to base.
0420: Bin lorry commences uplift in the 'Horseshoe' and they hold ground in the low light of the car and until the headlights illuminate them both or the driver gets nosey. Bin lorry finishes procedure and leaves. Corrie enters the car proper after a realisation that his phone is now in the bin lorry.
Corrie and the driver follow the bin lorry towards BM/M.
0430: Corrie and the driver leave the BSE phone mast area and head along the same route as the bin lorry, stopping or slowing down accordingly.
0500: Corrie's phone enters BM phone mast area followed by Corrie.
The driver/perp offers Corrie a lift back to his house until the morning so Corrie can collect his car before 0900.
Sun up at 0530: Corrie has to be under cover (building/vehicle) by this time or he'd have been seen.
Corrie is inside a house but removed the same night as rigarmortis and decayment would have kicked in.
0800: Corrie's mobile phone stops, battery failure, damaged, water logged, etc...

Body dumped within the BM/M area.

JMO


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[Yorkshirelass]

Not posted for a while but still lurking and waiting for more info.
Re the 55 minute " wait" Two things spring to mind.
1st... if it was a Hook up then sitting in a car for 55 mins then following the bin Lorry suggests to me that they were getting to know each other first before moving on so that would suggest a stranger?? Female ??? And also surely the vehicle would be closely behind the bin lorry and easily picked up on CCTV.
On the other hand if a quick hook up to get Jiggy then IMO they would quickly exit in the vehicle so not to be spotted in the HS (But this doesn't explain the Phone)
I Do have a bizarre theory on the 55 mins though........ Corrie spotting someone he recognised near to the rehab centre, being invited in, something happening, corrie bundled into the vehicle of interest .. the perp being someone in a public or high media position hence police and family having to get 110 % concrete evidence before proceeding ( Yes I know its mad but who knows )

 

[cottonweaver]

Welcome :welcome:

Thanks for that @ Hermit Holmes, So useful and informative to have such insights. Do stay.

I'll double second that - great to have some more newbies and doubly great they're sharing their prof exp with us.

Hermit , IDK if this interests you.

Poster "trefew" put this up a couple of days ago.( I think it was that poster) Flex club licensing reports.

https://democracy.westsuffolk.gov.uk/documents/s5942/Review%20of%20Premises%20Licence%20-%20Appendix%202.pdf

PS Hermit, what's your view about his gait/stumbling/degree of drunkeness on the CCTV, just cause you've been in the business many years.

 

[jessie]

I think poster mrazda , a day ago, pointed out that this case could end up being similar to Adrian Lynch's ( accidental drowning) and one point Adrian's father made after he was finally located was about "restoring dignity" to his son.

You're pointing to the classic conflicts of MP investigations and all forums - leaving no stone unturned and trying to ascertain all connections/risk factors/threats.........when of course his disappearance might be something far more ordinary with no personal factors whatsoever.

I also followed Adrian's disappearance from the beginning. There was also an f/b site for him but that was a very well run site almost professionally organising searches and flyers = very useful imo.
So sadly it didn't find Adrian, and he must have wandered around for sometime, disorientated and confused.
His phone was dropped as he alighted a taxi - which is something to bear in mind here I believe.
I hope Corrie is found, but following so many disappeared young lads after a night out I do go for the more simple explanation, just imo.

 

[Hermit Holmes]

Could I politely ask?

Are you allowed to mention historical cases that have been through the courts here? Eg.. This has all the hallmarks of a similar case 20 years ago when person A was found guilty of murdering person B?

 

[MidsummersDay]

MidsummersDay: Many thanks for your hard work on this timeline!

FYI - I removed the (with a passenger?) part at 2200, as that is a rumor.

I believe it was stated in a previous post by a poster purporting to be a friend of a friend.


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[PilgrimsPrayer]

The hole I see in the first scenario is that he would still have his phone, with battery life between his accident and his death. Why wouldn't he call for help?

2nd scenario more plausible but if all drivers have been identified and spoken to then why the delay in an arrest? Even if just to place listening devices in the perps house (unless sovereignty laws prevent this).

Two scenarios now we've established probabilities;
These are based on a 'Hook up' scenario that was voted on earlier in the Thread.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO ONE
0308: Corrie sends/receives a phone image in Hughes doorway proving he's compus mentus (but still intoxicated?).
He's waiting on that corner for his lift as its affords easy egress out of BSE.
The communication between him and the driver about the collection point is either misunderstood or deliberately avoided to afford more privacy for the driver.
0324: Corrie realises it's getting closer to 0330 and being a gunner and punctual he jogs to the Rvp in the 'Horseshoe' where his 'hook up' is waiting.
0330: The car is either in the dark of the 'Horseshoe' already, or has just pulled up (I'd say the former. I can see the texts flying about....'where are you?', 'I'm here already'...'where, I can't see you!').
Corrie approaches the car and confirms his identity to the driver.
They both like what they see and Corrie enters the car.
For the next 40 minutes, they get jiggly and discuss how he's going to get home.
0415: Bin lorry enters Shortbrackland.
0420: Bin lorry commences uplift in the 'Horseshoe' and they hold ground in the low light of the car and until the headlights illuminate them both or the driver gets nosey. Bin lorry finishes procedure and leaves, followed by Corrie and his driver/perp.
0430: Corrie and the driver exit the BSE phone mast area and head along the same or similar route to the bin lorry, stopping or slowing down looking for a secluded spot.
0500: Corrie's phone enters BM phone mast area with Corrie.
Business commences and is concluded shortly before Corrie is dropped off on a footpath/woodland track which he's agreed to.
Corrie meets his demise during a navex home...twisted ankle, broken leg, drowning, hypothermia etc).
Sun up at 0530: Corrie has to be under cover (ditch/river/lake/forest) by this time or he'd have been seen.
0800: Corrie's mobile phone is either switched off, battery exhausted (likely), or damaged. No further comms.

SPECULATIVE SCENARIO TWO
0308: Corrie sends/receives a phone image in Hughes doorway proving he's compus mentus (but still intoxicated?).
He's waiting on that corner for his 'hook up' lift as its a affords easy egress out of BSE. He'd arranged it earlier in the evening.
The communication between him and the hook up/driver/perp about the collection point is either misunderstood or deliberately avoided to afford more privacy for the driver/perp.
0324: Corrie realises it's getting closer to 0330 and after final confirmation, being a gunner and punctual, he jogs to the Rvp in the 'Horseshoe' where his 'hook up' is waiting. Caught on CCTV.
0330: The car is either in the dark of the 'Horseshoe' already or has just pulled up (again, I'd say the former. I can see the texts flying about....'where are you?', 'I'm here already'...'where?!).
Corrie confirms his identity to the driver who is out of the car by the first blue 1100ltr bin.
They both like what they see and get jiggly. Corrie's phone falls into the bin unbeknown to him at the time and after the action. He's obviously distracted.
0415: Bin lorry enters Shortbrackland.
They both enter the perp's car and chat about getting Corrie back to base.
0420: Bin lorry commences uplift in the 'Horseshoe' and they hold ground in the low light of the car and until the headlights illuminate them both or the driver gets nosey. Bin lorry finishes procedure and leaves. Corrie enters the car proper after a realisation that his phone is now in the bin lorry.
Corrie and the driver follow the bin lorry towards BM/M.
0430: Corrie and the driver leave the BSE phone mast area and head along the same route as the bin lorry, stopping or slowing down accordingly.
0500: Corrie's phone enters BM phone mast area followed by Corrie.
The driver/perp offers Corrie a lift back to his house until the morning so Corrie can collect his car before 0900.
Sun up at 0530: Corrie has to be under cover (building/vehicle) by this time or he'd have been seen.
Corrie is inside a house but removed the same night as rigarmortis and decayment would have kicked in.
0800: Corrie's mobile phone stops, battery failure, damaged, water logged, etc...

Body dumped within the BM/M area.

JMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[cottonweaver]

Could I politely ask?

Are you allowed to mention historical cases that have been through the courts here? Eg.. This has all the hallmarks of a similar case 20 years ago when person A was found guilty of murdering person B?

Yes HH

 

[cotswoldemmie]

Throwing it in the BIN LORRY makes more sense than picking the correct bin out of several of the same. I just need to come up with a theory as to why he would have his phone thrown into it now. :/


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If his phone was opportunistically thrown into the bin lorry, in the very short time that it was actually in the Horseshoe, I would think, who was spotted in that area at that time and by whom?
IIRC, the lorry driver saw the teenagers. Would that make sense?

EDIT: Just noticed cross-post. I'm way behind today!!!

 

[Clevercat]

The hole I see in the first scenario is that he would still have his phone, with battery life between his accident and his death. Why wouldn't he call for help?

2nd scenario more plausible but if all drivers have been identified and spoken to then why the delay in an arrest? Even if just to place listening devices in the perps house (unless sovereignty laws prevent this).

He could have been unconscious or in water which would prevent him using his phone

 

[cottonweaver]

I also followed Adrian's disappearance from the beginning. There was also an f/b site for him but that was a very well run site almost professionally organising searches and flyers = very useful imo.
So sadly it didn't find Adrian, and he must have wandered around for sometime, disorientated and confused.
His phone was dropped as he alighted a taxi - which is something to bear in mind here I believe.
I hope Corrie is found, but following so many disappeared young lads after a night out I do go for the more simple explanation, just imo.

Agree with u re. UL, my mind keeps being pulled back to the statistics for young men and simple misadventure.
On BIB I 'd be fascinated to hear more about that. eg. would you be expecting there to be more searches/different approaches etc now, when you compare it to ALynch case?