UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #7

[Shiressleuth]

BBM

But this means that the phone travelled only 6 miles in almost half an hour.

Yet we were told that the bin lorry did not stop on its journey from BSE to BM.

Am I going bonkers?

Could be anything at the moment.....

To me. A "wait" suggests a "meeting".
And a "meeting" suggests "willingly" going somewhere.

So, he, his phone, the car and the driver ...could easily all have been in the Barton Mills area together.

Yes if it was deemed that for the bin lorry so would be also true for other vehicles too which would also activate the motion cctv. When was the pod at BM and was that a police or family initiative? Surely to look at the motion cctv at that time in the morning is the logical place to have begun this trawl and work backwards and the police must have done this right? So what other vehicles were around at that time at BM and are they similar to the ones at SB?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

No you're not. The A1101 (road from Bury to Fiveways roundabout/Barton Mills) is a slow road with quite a few bends (and accidents through people driving too fast :-( ). There are also a number of 30mph speed limits through the villages (Fornham All Saints, Hengrave, Flempton, Lackford and Icklingham). Icklingham is a 'long' village so quite a long 30mph stretch. I live on this road about 6 miles out of Bury and driving to Bury in the morning, leaving home just before 6 am it takes me at least 15 mins (and that's with foot on the pedal between 30mph signs!) so a bin lorry/large vehicle/slow vehicle would IMO take longer.

But to cover 6 miles in half an hour suggests an average speed of 12mph. That's incredibly slow, even for a bin lorry on a slow road with bends, considering there probably wasn't very much traffic on it at that time of the morning.

 

[Shiressleuth]

The parking on Robert Boby Way is a long lay-by with parking for around 12 vehicles. It's always very difficult to get a space as it's free parking from 9 - 5 for 1 hour and probably the only free parking area in the town in the evening.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

But to cover 6 miles in half an hour suggests an average speed of 12mph. That's incredibly slow, even for a bin lorry on a slow road with bends, considering there probably wasn't very much traffic on it at that time of the morning.

Sorry if I missed this but is it known whether the switching over from the BSE mast to the BM mast is instant as soon as you crossover at a certain point or is the phone on a 'timer' and only gets switched when it sends a signal to report it is in a new area? Also couldn't there be quite a lot of overlap between masts i.e. the signal was strong enough connected to the BSE mast until it got much closer to BM?

This is a very complex and technical area and I'm a bit lost TBH....

 

[Dcflag]

But to cover 6 miles in half an hour suggests an average speed of 12mph. That's incredibly slow, even for a bin lorry on a slow road with bends, considering there probably wasn't very much traffic on it at that time of the morning.

But we're surmising it drove to the outskirts of the mast. The vehicle may have left bury later than the bin lorry, or may have driven somewhere else in bury first, or may have pulled over at any point before entering the bm mast space. Hell it could have driven around the mast area in some long winded way and then turned into the mast area? There's nothing saying the car drove 6 miles in any amount of time (assuming the phone was in a different vehicle to the bin lorry)

 

[Shiressleuth]

But to cover 6 miles in half an hour suggests an average speed of 12mph. That's incredibly slow, even for a bin lorry on a slow road with bends, considering there probably wasn't very much traffic on it at that time of the morning.

Well you have two examples given. Mine is 7 miles in 20 mins and Girl's example is 6 miles in 15 mins so that is av speeds of 21 and 24 mph for regular cars presumably and is the minimum time we could take. If I got stuck behind a bin lorry all the way I know it would take a lot longer that's for sure. To clarify, my example is not near BSE.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Unless....Corrie was in the vehicle WITH his phone, he was dropped at one place and his phone was discarded at another?

But wouldn't that then show stationary for a time on the tower pings? The reason it was initially matched to the bin lorry route was because? I thought it was because it hadn't stopped? Were the police or family the original source for this? Can we pin this down fps?

 

[Dcflag]

Apparently police can ping a phone not in use if there is a risk of suicide or murder?

"To identify a phone that is not in use, an operator has to send a special signal to it. Police are understood to request such operations several hundred times a month.

To get legal authorisation, a senior officer has to believe there is a threat to life, such as a potential suicide or murder. Those operations require high-level authorisation and are extensively documented."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-were-located-with-help-from-the-police.html

 

[MidsummersDay]

Thanks - I remember the Beck Row search being in the media, just nothing specific about a scrap yard or a particular field.

Hmmmm, my apologies. The 'scrapyard and Beck Row' theory seem to have been cemented in my head as fact. Admin delete my scrapyard references as appropriate. :/

 

[Dcflag]

But wouldn't that then show stationary for a time on the tower pings? The reason it was initially matched to the bin lorry route was because? I thought it was because it hadn't stopped? Were the police or family the original source for this? Can we pin this down fps?

From what I can see the timings come down to the last ping in bse vs the first ping in bm not the pings themselves.

A phone pings every few minutes, so if corries phone pinged in bse at say 4.30 (this is an example not fact) and then continued to ping bse until it hit bm at 5am you would know the phone hit the crossover mast point at around 5am. I assume that links to the bin lorry because it also would have entered bm around the same time. Not because they can see the phone moving with the pings because the pings themselves don't tell you location, just that the phone is in the radius of the mast. I really hope I've gotten that right I'm struggling a bit to understand it all!

Edited to add, in guessing the bin lorry itself holds the data on whether it stopped/speeded plus with the bin lorry leave time on the cctv they could work out when it would have hit the bm mast time wise.

 

[MidsummersDay]

But to cover 6 miles in half an hour suggests an average speed of 12mph. That's incredibly slow, even for a bin lorry on a slow road with bends, considering there probably wasn't very much traffic on it at that time of the morning.

Remember Melmoth, that's an AVERAGE speed. The vehicle would need to travel faster than that to achieve an average speed of 12mph.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Another thought. There is a high chance the bin lorry man had his own mobile phone. Wouldn't it be obvious to compare his phone ping map/timings to Corrie's?

I've also been doing a bit Goggling and one thing that comes up more than once is that a phone doesn't necessarily connect to a mast that is closest to it. For many different reasons.

 

[Clevercat]

Im not sure what the rules are? How did the Mcaans get their hire car searched? They must have used some legislation for that to happen (or is it different rules under Portuguese law?), (I'm not sure who was in charge at that time?) but surely you can ask the owners permission surely just to rule it out if an enquiry. If 3 owners say yes, 1 says no? Then there's a line in itself....?

'Indeed it is but without any evidence of criminality, what could they do?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

But we're surmising it drove to the outskirts of the mast. The vehicle may have left bury later than the bin lorry, or may have driven somewhere else in bury first, or may have pulled over at any point before entering the bm mast space. Hell it could have driven around the mast area in some long winded way and then turned into the mast area? There's nothing saying the car drove 6 miles in any amount of time (assuming the phone was in a different vehicle to the bin lorry)

BBM.

Exactly. That half hour gap could have been the bin lorry rumbling along a largely empty road at around 12mph OR a car with Corrie and his phone in pulling over for a period of time for some reason or other before going on.

If they were heading for a party and had already been drinking, maybe Corrie or the driver felt really sick and stopped to throw up.

Or, IF this was Corrie being assisted to go AWOL, time for the car to pull over for quarter of an hour or so and the driver ask, "Are you sure you want to do this, mate? There's still time to change your mind." Or time for Corrie to change clothes into something less noticeable.

As I've previously said, I do not think the phone was in the bin lorry. So I'm really looking for a scenario in which it would take the phone an apparent half hour to cover 6 miles. As we've both said, a car stopping for a while in the middle of nowhere between the mast catchment areas would provide that scenario.

 

[Shiressleuth]

From what I can see the timings come down to the last ping in bse vs the first ping in bm not the pings themselves.

A phone pings every few minutes, so if corries phone pinged in bse at say 4.30 (this is an example not fact) and then continued to ping bse until it hit bm at 5am you would know the phone hit the crossover mast point at around 5am. I assume that links to the bin lorry because it also would have entered bm around the same time. Not because they can see the phone moving with the pings because the pings themselves don't tell you location, just that the phone is in the radius of the mast. I really hope I've gotten that right I'm struggling a bit to understand it all!

Edited to add, in guessing the bin lorry itself holds the data on whether it stopped/speeded plus with the bin lorry leave time on the cctv they could work out when it would have hit the bm mast time wise.

Thanks Dc . So your last para is talking about the driver's phone pings or matching accomplished from the motion cctv and town centre cctv timings or even did they do a "tower dump" to see all phone pings . That's what we don't know. I think we do need Molder and Skully or a phone expert.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Remember Melmoth, that's an AVERAGE speed. The vehicle would need to travel faster than that to achieve an average speed of 12mph.

Of course. And conversely some periods when it was travelling much slower. So slowly you could just about walk in front of it with a red flag.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Another thought. There is a high chance the bin lorry man had his own mobile phone. Wouldn't it be obvious to compare his phone ping map/timings to Corrie's?

This has been brought up before and we've speculated on it but AFAIK there has never been anything about it from the police.

I've also been doing a bit Goggling and one thing that comes up more than once is that a phone doesn't necessarily connect to a mast that is closest to it. For many different reasons.

That may be true, but every mast has a maximum range beyond which it cannot be reached by the phone. Otherwise you could never ben out of range or not get a signal. From memory of previous posts on the subject, I believe there are three different powers or sizes of masts with different footprint radii.

 

[Dcflag]

Thanks Dc . So your last para is talking about the driver's phone pings or matching accomplished from the motion cctv and town centre cctv timings or even did they do a "tower dump" to see all phone pings . That's what we don't know. I think we do need Molder and Skully or a phone expert.

My last paragraph related to the tachograph of the bin lorry which will show if the bin lorry has stopped, speed it's driving etc. So if you know the speed it's driving and that it didn't stop you could make a good guess of what time the bin lorry hit the bm mast using the departure time from bse on cctv.

I'm not sure the police could ping the lorry drivers phone, seems to be a lot of strict rules in place (probably given the hacking scandal)

12th November;" Option 3 – Analysis into option 3 continues. This includes further, technical analysis of the bin lorry’s movements using experts from SCIT analysing Tachograph data for example, and technical analysis of the possibility of a phone moving with it." Showing them looking at tachograph data

 

[Clevercat]

Morning clevercat. Welcome to the asylum. Good point. They seized the bin lorry presumably with this evidence of the phone pings so if the vehicles where a similar timeline couldn't they do the same?

Thank you for the welcome 😊

It's most likely that the owners of the bin lorry gave permission for it to be searched. I'm not sure it would have been without this. I am trying to find out the rules governing searching a vehicle or property without any evidence of a crime being committed.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Well you have two examples given. Mine is 7 miles in 20 mins and Girl's example is 6 miles in 15 mins so that is av speeds of 21 and 24 mph for regular cars presumably and is the minimum time we could take. If I got stuck behind a bin lorry all the way I know it would take a lot longer that's for sure. To clarify, my example is not near BSE.

What time of day are these journeys though? The bin lorry was doing it at between 4.30am and 5am when there would be very little other traffic on the road.