Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

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One very big thing.......I have done the very same walk up that path in very similar conditions and I started in the car park and not at the Clarence, anybody unfit and not dressed for the occasion would have had real difficulties even getting to where David did.
I was absolutely knackered and panting for breath most of the way, and I stopped several times to catch my breath but got tired out quickly after that. I was with the producer of the documentary and we both got soaked even though we were both wearing properly good outdoor wet weather clothing. .

I fully agree with this, knowing the walk and the terrain well.

It is an even tougher walk from Greenfield station, at least another kilometre, which begins down a steep slope, all before you even make it to the Clarence.

I wonder Jeremy your thoughts on whether he took the train from Manchester to Greenfield? Do you have any thoughts on how he got to Greenfield so quickly?
 
I wonder Jeremy your thoughts on whether he took the train from Manchester to Greenfield? Do you have any thoughts on how he got to Greenfield so quickly?

No one knows, the prevailing thought is that he got a hookie mini-cab. ie an unlicensed cab, or one that was off duty? The fact that he waited around at Manchester Piccadilly station would suggest to me that he was waiting for a lift?

More questions without answers.
 
@loopdloop ...... David's heart was not in good shape, but according to the toxicolgist it was the strychnine that killed him. With those wild weather conditions it would have been very difficult to manage to only use just enough.
 
No one knows, the prevailing thought is that he got a hookie mini-cab. ie an unlicensed cab, or one that was off duty? The fact that he waited around at Manchester Piccadilly station would suggest to me that he was waiting for a lift?

More questions without answers.

But who would he know up there that he could be meeting? I suppose he could have met anyone during his time in Lahore that "we" wouldn't know about.

Out of interest / nosiness (!) have you had the opportunity to speak to either the ex-partner (and did you even know about her?) or the fella who picked him up from the airport?

Finally, was anything omitted from the documentary that you think could be a clue?
 
But who would he know up there that he could be meeting? I suppose he could have met anyone during his time in Lahore that "we" wouldn't know about.

Out of interest / nosiness (!) have you had the opportunity to speak to either the ex-partner (and did you even know about her?) or the fella who picked him up from the airport?

Finally, was anything omitted from the documentary that you think could be a clue?

I swear I read somewhere David's ex was in touch with his family.

Didn't his friend Salim say "he went to Pakistan because he liked the warm weather"?


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I swear I read somewhere David's ex was in touch with his family.

Didn't his friend Salim say "he went to Pakistan because he liked the warm weather"?


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Yes, one of the articles said Maureen still regularly visits David and Jeremy's mother.
 
Watched the documentary and then being so fascinated in this that i googled it and hence how i stumbled upon this thread.


I used to be a landscape gardener about 10 years ago and i remember a customer we had who was 89 single and no family tell us a little story about him chatting to a 18 year old Pakistani girl from Pakistan and apparently he changed his name to a Muslim name and they were destined to come over to the UK, marry him and he reckons live happily ever after. Im not sure what happened to him but i grew up with Pakistani friends and even they said they are going to rob the old man. Apparently its quite common and they even do it do fellow Pakistani's also.


Pakistan is a AWFULLY strange place to relocate to if you're a white male of Jewish background. I am Indian myself and i would not even think about stepping foot in Pakistan. Im not saying this romance scam happened to David, but i can't help thinking it may be a possibility that he may of been drawn there due to romance?.


1. Who is this Pakistani bus driver lodger that was mentioned? the police should be following up on who this was/is and did he help David settle in back in Pakistan?. He could be innocent throughout this whole case but i think he is a viable lead here.


2. Was it mentioned David went to Pakistan with more than 200k pounds? (sorry i could be wrong on that). And spending 100k on the apartment he bought under someone else's name?. I think more needs to be done to figure out where this money has gone. Didn't the previous owner of the apartment say he used the money already?, was there any paperwork of the house sale?.


3. Wasn't it mentioned David did not like hot weather? so why Pakistan?. I honestly cannot think of any reason to go to Pakistan other than some sort of romance (possible scam) was involved. Wasn't it also mentioned that he was a simple guy that wanted a simple life and didn't have credit cards?. So how was a credit card used to buy the plane tickets?.


The problem with Pakistan is, you can bribe anyone, and its quite common to bribe the police when you've committed a crime. So it may be difficult to get answers out of them.


I fear there was foul play with Davids death, maybe he was abused over time, hence the broken leg?...and eventually robbed of nearly all his money then kicked out?. Flew back to the UK to quietly kill himself as thought he had nothing else to live for?.


Its such a shame he didn't keep in contact with his ex gf (wife?) and his brother (who seems to be a nice guy).

I do hope the police get to the bottom of this and not let the case dry up and then close it.

Best of luck to Davids brother to find the truth and sorry for your loss.
 
Watched the documentary and then being so fascinated in this that i googled it and hence how i stumbled upon this thread.


I used to be a landscape gardener about 10 years ago and i remember a customer we had who was 89 single and no family tell us a little story about him chatting to a 18 year old Pakistani girl from Pakistan and apparently he changed his name to a Muslim name and they were destined to come over to the UK, marry him and he reckons live happily ever after. Im not sure what happened to him but i grew up with Pakistani friends and even they said they are going to rob the old man. Apparently its quite common and they even do it do fellow Pakistani's also.


Pakistan is a AWFULLY strange place to relocate to if you're a white male of Jewish background. I am Indian myself and i would not even think about stepping foot in Pakistan. Im not saying this romance scam happened to David, but i can't help thinking it may be a possibility that he may of been drawn there due to romance?.


1. Who is this Pakistani bus driver lodger that was mentioned? the police should be following up on who this was/is and did he help David settle in back in Pakistan?. He could be innocent throughout this whole case but i think he is a viable lead here.


2. Was it mentioned David went to Pakistan with more than 200k pounds? (sorry i could be wrong on that). And spending 100k on the apartment he bought under someone else's name?. I think more needs to be done to figure out where this money has gone. Didn't the previous owner of the apartment say he used the money already?, was there any paperwork of the house sale?.


3. Wasn't it mentioned David did not like hot weather? so why Pakistan?. I honestly cannot think of any reason to go to Pakistan other than some sort of romance (possible scam) was involved. Wasn't it also mentioned that he was a simple guy that wanted a simple life and didn't have credit cards?. So how was a credit card used to buy the plane tickets?.


The problem with Pakistan is, you can bribe anyone, and its quite common to bribe the police when you've committed a crime. So it may be difficult to get answers out of them.


I fear there was foul play with Davids death, maybe he was abused over time, hence the broken leg?...and eventually robbed of nearly all his money then kicked out?. Flew back to the UK to quietly kill himself as thought he had nothing else to live for?.


Its such a shame he didn't keep in contact with his ex gf (wife?) and his brother (who seems to be a nice guy).

I do hope the police get to the bottom of this and not let the case dry up and then close it.

Best of luck to Davids brother to find the truth and sorry for your loss.

It wasn't just a broken leg, it was a broken femur it's like the fattest bone in the body and it's not an easy bone to break. Either he fell from a great height, high impact car/motorcycle crash (passenger or pedestrian), even a gun shot wound to the thigh.


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Jaisunny: after watching the programme and reading from the inquest, I too got the impression some things were amiss in Pakistan.
I feel he just wanted to be back in the UK. I've since read enough about the strychnine to believe there was no foul play or intention to kill himself.
I think he was just happy to be back home and enjoying the freedom to travel around and go wherever he pleased and his intent that day was to return to a London, if not that day maybe the next. He had money on him to stay over if he needed to.
I also think he would have eventually contacted people he once knew, once he had come to terms with the fact he was back. People normally ask questions but maybe he wasn't quite ready for that just yet.
This is just basically a shortened version of my view on what happened to David.
Sending condolences to Davids family and friends.
 
Nothing about this case makes sense, and I don't mean just a little bit. I mean as if things have been deliberately constructed to not make sense. Of course, the big picture items are baffling, like why did he go to Dovestone Reservoir at all, but the little things don't make sense either.

1. He was wearing his glasses to check in at Lahore, but was not wearing glasses in the Picadilly CCTV?

2. He paid cash for 5 nights at the hotel in London, checked out after one night, but didn't get a refund for the rest of his stay?

3. Pakistan keep cctv images of passengers checking in from a year ago, but apparently Heathrow don't?

4. Manchester city centre is plastered with cctv cameras, yet there are no images of him after leaving Picadilly?

5. He travels, presumably, by taxi, to Greenfield, but instead of being dropped at the reservoir car park itself, where the walk up the hill commences, he is dropped off somewhere before the Clarence Hotel? Instead of asking the taxi driver for directions, he stops at the pub to ask? And the taxi driver never comes forward, despite extensive police enquiries?

6. His friend travelled to Pakistan with him, and picked him up from the airport, but apparently no one has any clue why he returned to the UK. His friend was not curious? No one asked him?

7. He goes to live in a climate which he hates in a country which is not exactly hospitable to his faith, yet sends letter with a California postcode? And this has nothing to do with what happened?

8. He uses a credit card to pay for his ticket, but this has not been followed up?

9. He has a large wad of cash on him, enough for 5 nights at a hotel, train tickets and 130 quid left over, yet no record of withdrawing it from an ATM, or a card, or a bank account in the UK?

10. The cyclist discovers his body 10 hours at least after death and the arms are crossed over his chest, yet when emergency services attend the scene his arms are by his side?

11. The coroner declares he died of strychnine poisoning, yet the classic signs of strychnine poisoning, the distorted body, are completely absent?

12. His girlfriend says he never took so much as an aspirin, yet he is a recreational user of strychnine?

13. He has a tube ticket in his pocket from an expired journey when the machines in London keep your ticket after you have passed through the turnstiles?

14. He's travelled on the train to Manchester, which no doubt is also loaded with cctv cameras, yet there is no footage of him on the train?

15. We are presented with a Channel Four documentary, in which the police appear to have recreated all the scenes, on the telephone, having discussions, and so forth, for the cameras? Really? The police are actors now? Or were camera crews following the police around from the beginning of the case? The documentary includes scenes which are completely irrelevant to the final outcome, like interviewing the man who is convinced that Neil Dovestone is the "spit" of his father. It includes detectives speculating on his motives (a spy?) without any further evidence or comment. It obviously leaves out many crucial facts and details.

16. Luggage missing, wallet missing, glasses missing, cards missing, passport missing?

17. They've spoken to the surgeon who fixed his leg (see interview outside Coroner's Inquest with Det Sgt Coleman), yet what happened to his leg remains a mystery?

If this was a movie and I was trying to figure the plot out, I would conclude that at some level, it is all an elaborate hoax. Perhaps I've watched too many movies. Of course, its not a movie, but then again, it doesn't exactly seem to be real life either.

I apologise if this upsets anyone, but I've come to the conclusion that far more is known about this than is being put into the public domain, and at some level, someone is creating a situation. Perhaps that was David. Perhaps it is someone else. But something about this whole business is just not right.
 
Loopdloop: I agree with many of your questions but I think that a lot of the answers to your questions are probably known to the police, we just weren't told or shown them in the documentary.
I think OracleOnes' post 627 has a ring of truth in it.

The letters do seem strange but his brother has said he cannot exactly remember when he received them. The inquest states they were received shortly before David left for Pakistan.
The inquest also stated that he had travelled to Pakistan three times prior yet nobody else knew about the visits and without his passport none of the visits anywhere can seem to be verified. Except the return to U.K.

I can read lots of suspicion into what happened or I can make a little sense of it. I don't get the impression David had an enjoyable time in Pakistan but I'd like to think he felt a free spirit at the end.
Just my view.
 
Watched the documentary and then being so fascinated in this that i googled it and hence how i stumbled upon this thread.


I used to be a landscape gardener about 10 years ago and i remember a customer we had who was 89 single and no family tell us a little story about him chatting to a 18 year old Pakistani girl from Pakistan and apparently he changed his name to a Muslim name and they were destined to come over to the UK, marry him and he reckons live happily ever after. Im not sure what happened to him but i grew up with Pakistani friends and even they said they are going to rob the old man. Apparently its quite common and they even do it do fellow Pakistani's also.


Pakistan is a AWFULLY strange place to relocate to if you're a white male of Jewish background. I am Indian myself and i would not even think about stepping foot in Pakistan. Im not saying this romance scam happened to David, but i can't help thinking it may be a possibility that he may of been drawn there due to romance?.


1. Who is this Pakistani bus driver lodger that was mentioned? the police should be following up on who this was/is and did he help David settle in back in Pakistan?. He could be innocent throughout this whole case but i think he is a viable lead here.


2. Was it mentioned David went to Pakistan with more than 200k pounds? (sorry i could be wrong on that). And spending 100k on the apartment he bought under someone else's name?. I think more needs to be done to figure out where this money has gone. Didn't the previous owner of the apartment say he used the money already?, was there any paperwork of the house sale?.


3. Wasn't it mentioned David did not like hot weather? so why Pakistan?. I honestly cannot think of any reason to go to Pakistan other than some sort of romance (possible scam) was involved. Wasn't it also mentioned that he was a simple guy that wanted a simple life and didn't have credit cards?. So how was a credit card used to buy the plane tickets?.


The problem with Pakistan is, you can bribe anyone, and its quite common to bribe the police when you've committed a crime. So it may be difficult to get answers out of them.


I fear there was foul play with Davids death, maybe he was abused over time, hence the broken leg?...and eventually robbed of nearly all his money then kicked out?. Flew back to the UK to quietly kill himself as thought he had nothing else to live for?.


Its such a shame he didn't keep in contact with his ex gf (wife?) and his brother (who seems to be a nice guy).

I do hope the police get to the bottom of this and not let the case dry up and then close it.

Best of luck to Davids brother to find the truth and sorry for your loss.

Welcome to Ws jaisunny, glad you " stumbled " onto this thread!
Romance fraud/scam was one of the first things that came to my mind as well in this curious case. Nothing tangible has been presented to support that idea, but when i think of someone who normally wears glasses and removes them away from home, a romantic meeting of someone new comes to mind.
speculation, imo.
 
Yes, one of the articles said Maureen still regularly visits David and Jeremy's mother.

Maureen calls Mum regularly and we speak occasionally, but she is flat bound and has been for some years now. She has never met Mum, and only met me once years ago.
 
Maureen calls Mum regularly but she is flat bound and has been for some years now. She has never met Mum, and only met me once years ago.

What about the other chap, the man that took him to Pakistan and picked him up again a decade later? Surely he must be able to shed some light on what David was doing all those years, and why he decided to return, and maybe even The Biggie - why Saddleworth. Do you have an inkling on any of that, at all?
 
What about the other chap, the man that took him to Pakistan and picked him up again a decade later? Surely he must be able to shed some light on what David was doing all those years, and why he decided to return, and maybe even The Biggie - why Saddleworth. Do you have an inkling on any of that, at all?
He said he wanted to meet with me but is not answering my texts.......

The weird thing about this is that nobody is either right or wrong.
 
I was thinking the other about David's suitcase, did I read somewhere that it might have been thrown in a lake in Ealing (?) and wondered if that is getting searched. It must be frustrating to know his last personal effects are probably in there, things that might solve this mystery.
 
I was thinking the other about David's suitcase, did I read somewhere that it might have been thrown in a lake in Ealing (?) and wondered if that is getting searched. It must be frustrating to know his last personal effects are probably in there, things that might solve this mystery.

Someone iirc, on thread had suggested that D may have thrown his suitcase in the lake.

Among the many unresolved questions that remain are those of Mr Lytton's passport and luggage, neither of which has been found.
 
What about the key to his hotel room? Was this found?


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Really fascinating questions coming up here, and also very interesting contributions from David's brother. Again, thank you Jeremy for your willingness to engage with us.

I'm really wondering now about why the Channel Four documentary was even made at all. If all those scenes are recreations (the phone calls, the meetings, the walking down the hallway), which I assume they are as it seems unlikely that cameras were following the investigation from the start, I find it amazing that the police agreed to participate and "act" out everything for the cameras. What was the point, in terms of benefit for the police, if indeed they know much more than they are letting on?

And what is the benefit to the public in promoting this as some grand mystery, if in fact the police know many of the answers already but are keeping them to themselves?

Have they concluded their investigation? If so, why is it left to Jeremy to try and find out answers by texting the mystery man for example who met David at the airport?

Why does Jeremy say that the credit card used to purchase the airline ticket needs looking into, when it is clearly written on the whiteboard in one of the scenes that they need to follow this up? Surely that is a very straightforward thing to sort out. Get the credit card number from the travel agent. Look up the bank details. Find out what activity was happening on that account. Sorted. But apparently, no, nothing has been done there.

I really don't understand what the police were aiming to achieve by agreeing to do this. Surely they are busy with plenty on their plates. So why go through with all these recreations? If they were genuinely trying to engage the public in bringing out more information, then why have they left so many threads hanging?

I almost find myself thinking that there is some attempt to mislead the public with this documentary, not just in withholding key pieces of information, but in creating a mystery when surely many aspects of this mystery ought to be easily cleared up with a few additional phone calls, to the travel agent, to the hotel, to the mystery man, to Heathrow. What am I missing here?

Are any of the police team reading this? Perhaps they might like to comment? I doubt it, but let's see.
 

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