GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Tortoise]

I don't know if I believe this account of Ellie vomiting blood. I'm sure the forensics would know by the staining on the cushion if it was blood spots or vomit.

Thing is, I suspect he is using this to try to explain Ellie's death. I don't think he would have sent Ellie back to school after the weekend without speaking to anyone to keep an eye on her. It seems a bit contrived, and even if there was a front fracture I'm not sure that would cause Ellie's head to cave so readily at the back.

 

[Tortoise]

Another claim he is making is that the evidence shows Ellie had a skull fracture during the time she was in foster care or with her grandparents.

He will probably be bringing his own medical expert - they weren't able to confirm it yesterday but it's a likelihood. BB asked the judge flippantly yesterday if he could give him more legal aid.

I don't like where this is headed. I'm looking forward to summing up, because I think there has been a wealth of expert opinion and it will be good to get all that info. together. I'll have to take a notepad.

 

[Tortoise]

Reminder for myself for later - evidence heard about Ellie's ear pinning and swimming kit. Also JG's 'boob job'.

It's really quite funny to hear Brown speaking in his plummy accent and reading texts containing the words pussy and *advertiser censored*.

 

[cottonweaver]

Reminder for myself for later - evidence heard about Ellie's ear pinning and swimming kit. Also JG's 'boob job'.

It's really quite funny to hear Brown speaking in his plummy accent and reading texts containing the words pussy and *advertiser censored*.

I am glad there is the occasional lighter moment. Thanks for all this feedback again, I'm going to leave a couple of queries, but, naturally, don't at all feel obliged to answer them tonight as you may go again today. ( No hurry , just posting them before I lose track.)

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes Brown pointed it out to him after one of his rants today about there being no marks on Ellie. Said there were 4 round grip like bruises under her chin and a bruise on her inner arm. Don't worry cotton, Brown is on it!

Do you have a view on blunt weapon or thrown against the wall? ie. I don't suppose you have heard anything about a clean-up being detected. You prob haven't as I think you would have posted it.

I only mention a possible weapon as you posted this week about a pure hunch about a BB trip to dispose of a weapon further afield. I also posted last month re. the oddity of the cab-driver hearing her saying to him “You've gone where.?”. If latter was accurate I was speculating - did he make several trips, ie. one between 11.30 ish and before she gets home at 1.50 – as he has this approx 2 hr gap of lying on the floor , dazed nonsense.
( Later, once she has got home he goes on perhaps his second walkabout with the dog to the bins.)

 

[cottonweaver]

He really tried to dish dirt on the prosecution experts again today. Scoffed that Dr Nathaniel Cary is rolled out in all the trials and his 'car crash injuries' is a cut and paste job. He is on a mission but I think it is failing. Judge asked him if he knew about the law of diminishing returns and advised him to stop.

Good on the judge. BB should not be allowed to make any medical/scientific claims as lay people are not allowed to do so.

 

[cottonweaver]

Anyway, Brown also said that the scapula break and the skull fracture occurred at two different times according to the experts. BB said that was rubbish and they didn't know what they were talking about. Brown said Ellie was injured on 1st October and that is why she was absent from school for 14 days. BB said no, she had bruises when she went back to school which wouldn't have still been there. Brown said that occurred later than the broken scapula.

Ok, so BB is claiming that the skull fracture happened on the 11th Oct and he knows nothing about shoulder etc. ( Ellie returned on 14 th Oct with the various bruises with the first day of absence as 1st .) Brown is arguing that shoulder break happened on 1st Oct. So as we feared back in April, horrifyingly, Ellie spends days in acute pain ( expert said "The shoulder pain would be terrible for 7-10 days*" taking that to Oct 10th max) and then gets beaten again resulting in the skull fracture.

I'll be interested to hear any testimony from this pair about shoulder fracture symptoms from Ellie. They don't claim to have heard a sign of it so far. This shoulder is important as it cannot be muddied with any issues about skull weaknesses, SBS, 2007 etc as it's a totally unrelated injury. ( Only mention so far was at start of trial and one of their Def QCs countered wtte - could the pain be sorted with paracetamol in a kid with a high pain threshold.)

 

[cottonweaver]

Another little bit of dirt on JG was served up by BB today.

JG was looking after the girls while he was out. When he came home the front door was open and they were sitting on the door step. Age 3 and 6. He said where's mummy? They said she's gone. He found out JG had gone and left them at home by themselves while she checked herself into a hospital.

BB said I didn't want to have to say these things because I accept everything here is my fault but you're asking me why I was angry with her, why I didn't want to be with her.

I don't think he gets the point, I really don't, no one cares why he was angry, it's what he did when he was fuming and angry that is relevant. And how he didn't want to look after the girls.

He passed off the assaults on his ex-girlfriend as being nothing but pushes. Brown said, she had to get hospital treatment for her facial injuries. BB said she did far worse to him, and no one should listen to her claims because she was a crackhead. He said she wasn't a girlfriend, he wasn't in a relationship with her (where have we heard that before). He didn't press counter charges against her because he didn't want to give her a criminal record as she wanted to be an air hostess. Brown said so you acted out of the kindness of your heart did you.

Several other fights he got into in 2013 (one where his head was swollen up and another where his hand had to be wrapped up in a towel with ice) which he never sought medical attention for, because? you got it, 2007.

BIB, If I can believe anything he says, I suppose this could be the "grass" issue from the previous March JG text. ( as she also texted around that time "“My jaw, back, neck and head still hurt very badly from Friday and Saturday,” from inside hospital with the gynae complications, and she had been violently kicked out of her own home, who on earth could blame JG for dragging herself into hosp and leaving the kids when one can guess he would not come home to do childcare to allow her to get treatment .)

UL it says "counter charges". I don't think you are saying that JG pressed assault charges against him, it's just more of his deflecting drivel.

 

[cottonweaver]

I thought BB was going to jump out of the witness box today and throttle Brown. They were talking about the staged 999 call and Brown suggested they had set up the little one to say she couldn't wake Ellie up. BB was going, are you really going to dare suggest that? Are you going to bring I**y into this? Are you? He was well riled up. Judge had to intervene to calm him down.

UL Consummate actor, flagrant liar. See how his court room anger is an act, as I said before he testified - he will turn it on, turn it off , as & when it suits.

Of course he exploited the youngest in his Defence. Their version 1 - she found Ellie dead, was sent upstairs to fetch E for cake.. Next event we discover- she is in the room whilst the 999 horror is going on, as we hear her say "I tried to wake her up".

However he has even done worse than even I guessed, by placing youngest as the last person to see Ellie alive - now even I didn't think he would go that far.
I feel bad for this little girl being left this legacy.

 

[cottonweaver]

The idiot man aka bully boy BB is spouting again , 10 mins ago

https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/733249211152617472



Ben Butler back in the witness box: 'I'm going to keep giving the same answer to the same question and it's ****ing boring'

 

[cottonweaver]

Another claim he is making is that the evidence shows Ellie had a skull fracture during the time she was in foster care or with her grandparents.

He will probably be bringing his own medical expert - they weren't able to confirm it yesterday but it's a likelihood. BB asked the judge flippantly yesterday if he could give him more legal aid.

I don't like where this is headed. I'm looking forward to summing up, because I think there has been a wealth of expert opinion and it will be good to get all that info. together. I'll have to take a notepad.

UL - I'd like to hear more on that from Pros. Wondering what date it is.

BIB I wonder if that is Laura Scheimberg or someone else. We know, from previous testimony, that she was observing the Pros pathologist Risdon before the 2 had some professional discourtesy, she alleges.
I didn't appreciate back then that there was such a rancorous relationship between some of the SBS experts.

This is what the "original" SBS scientist says today

"The divisions within the medical world run so deep that they pain a towering figure on this issue: Dr. A. Norman Guthkelch, a British doctor who in 1971 found a connection between baby-shaking and brain injury. “There are cases where people on both sides, both of whom I admire equally, are barely able to speak to one another, and that’s a shame,”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/14/u...osis-that-divides-the-medical-world.html?_r=1

here's one of the controversial SBS defence experts who has just been "struck off ' in march - Dr Waney Squier found "guilty of misleading the courts". Claims of a witch hunt by a small group of dissenting pathologists.
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...rt-witness-found-guilty-of-misleading-courts/

this better link is fascinating, IMO, number of cases an "expert" can testify in, detail on how they can mislead the courts- on W Squier:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs...-over-shaken-baby-syndrome-is-struck-off.html

 

[cottonweaver]

filed 19 mins ago

http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/daughter-may-jumped-hit-head-i-asleep/?fb_ref=JCE4cwCzh2-Twitter

she may have ‘jumped and hit her head’ when he was sleeping downstairs. Ben Butler, 36, claims little Ellie died as a result of injuries caused weeks earlier when she was chasing the family Jack Russell puppy, Minnie, down the stairs.

He has told jurors he shut her bedroom door and went for a lie down after finding his child before ‘covering up his mistakes’. Butler today (THURS) said: ‘When she chased Minnie down the stairs, this is the problem. All the damage is done then. ‘The complete damage is done then. Whatever happened upstairs, if she jumped or whatever and banged her head it’s because of the stairs.’ He told jurors: ‘The biggest mistake I ever made was going back to sleep. ‘What happened was probably when I was asleep.’

Yesterday he said his biggest mistake was
1. trying to cover up & 999 delay
2. not getting her past med investigations to explore underlying weakneses ( due to fear of persecution) and a protective "helmet"

 

[cottonweaver]

Cross examining, Ed Brown QC said there was no evidence that Ellie was a "clumsy" child at school.

Butler told jurors that Ellie had fallen over "two or three times" and cut her knee.

Mr Brown suggested that a series of injuries in June, August, and more than one incident in October 2013 were not all accidents.

Butler replied: "Children fall over. I have not hid it. I have highlighted it.

BIB More drivel

"I believe when she chased Minnie down the stairs I think all the damage is done then and then whatever happened upstairs would not have happened - I don't know what they were doing - if she just jumped and banged her head. It is because of the stairs.

"You know full well she fell down the stairs. There is things I cannot tell you about.

"You know full well what I am telling you is the truth because I have pulled it out and proved it medically. I don't know what to say, there was nothing wrong that day. This probably happened when I was asleep."

The prosecutor alleged that in his mind, the defendant had correlated Ellie with his partner Jennie Gray with whom he had a violent relationship.

UL ???
BIB Maybe. Who can get inside BB's head as to motive for choosing Ellie. We've all tried - but it's a nice simple explanation that will work with the jury, so fine.

Read more: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...rting-jury-from-truth-1-7920758#ixzz496ulGyMa

 

[cottonweaver]

Same link as above
during cross ex

- denies lying to /diverting the jury
- denies anyone knew about the painful shoulder injury
- ellie was a clumsy child

would have died for Ellie, he cared so much about her.

 

[Legally Bland]

From CW's quote above.

You know full well what I am telling you is the truth because I have pulled it out and proved it medically.

Does he really think that if he repeats this enough times the jury will consider his medical opinion over the expert witnesses?

 

[cottonweaver]

From CW's quote above.



Does he really think that if he repeats this enough times the jury will consider his medical opinion over the expert witnesses?

I agree LB. And he is so vain, he personally pulled it out & proved it - yeah right.
Everyone in that court room ( except JG) must be so tired of him by now. They started out revolted and appalled....now they'll be weary.

I see when QC addressed a question to him as "MrButler", BB replied " Mr Brown, you know full well..." Tit- for- tat like an argumentative brat - he is doing himself no favours.

 

[cottonweaver]

It got interesting again but if I paste the extract , it will be over 10%.

BB concluded his evidence and Judge Wilkie makes a long comment, which ends with:

Posing his question, the judge said: "I just want your response to this: if it was suggested that the way the cover up seems to have operated indicates that it was your aim to transfer suspicion from yourself as the sole adult in the house, what would your response be to that suggestion?"
The defendant replied: "Absolutely not. I would not blame her for anything."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa...enies-diverting-jury-truth.html#ixzz497BBFJVe
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The trial was adjourned until Friday when medical experts for Butler will give evidence via video link from the United States.

 

[Gigi-G]

Migraines can be due to a lack of magnesium. Could you try to nip this migraine in the bud with an Epsom Salts bath? The magnesium in it will soak into your skin. (Don't take them internally though, it causes diarrhoea!)

Thank you Squish. I dint have any indoors I shall have to make a point of getting some. Doc prescribed me Buccal has a fancy name like promethazine. It's not as strong as it was in the onset. Just wanted to catch up with the news.. and now we also find that a French Airbus has disappeared 10 miles inside Arabian Air Space. Over the Mediterranean Sea. So I've my Conspiracy Head on. Ugh I miss so much when my brain hurts. 😭

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

only little bit that is "new" is in the BBC tonight



No-one wants to admit to anyone they may be at fault for why she died!! The arrogance of this man knows no bounds.
Plus he has really got sucked into these parents against injustices blogs. There are loads of them across here, US, Aus etc. Maybe a few of them have legit axes to grind..... but he's certainly hitched a ride on that bandwagon.

For Brown QC I should think he is quite infuriating to deal with. The judge's soul must be sighing- he'll need a stiff drink every night.

He's passing the buck. Becuz he's the Legal Beagle don't forget. He knows more about the law than the medical experts do. And in his reports they are incompetent and know nothing about head trauma.
He wants the fame like he got for quashing the 2007 case against him.
And he believes he can get it. He's delusional. He's arrogant beyond the fact.
Thing is. Ellie survived the 2007 episode. But with each beating the poor baby took. Meant more head trauma more brain damage. More skull degradation. Until finally.........

Ellie's skull split inside her head. Causing a massive haemorrhage. A fatal blow. At her own fathers hands.
I think he's so detached him self. From the whole case. He believes he's innocent like before.

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[cottonweaver]

duplicated below